Amrita Pritam

Beautiful poem, excellently translated. Thank you! :-)

i am sorry for her death and her poem.....moved me to tears.....very powerfull indeed!
Ammara

delhiwalla#363

I agree that our gurus do not have the same place as Prophet Mohammed has for Muslims. All I am saying is let us keep it this way and make a distintion between criticism and insult.

#362 by delhiwala on May 23, 2005 7:53pm PT

DW, I have no issue with the fact that the followers of any religion/leader need to use their own brains to deal with their problems as they occur.

My only point in terms of lot to be done was for example – we have really not made a serious attempt to propagate the great teachings like Christians or Muslims have done. As DrLokraj pointed out, we did not want to bring in Dalits to the fold. The result is that our religion is seen as just a Punjabi religion. People are unaware that it’s universal religion that combines best of the known religions at the time. You see, in the long run our small number (relative to other major religions) will hurt us.

Many of our folks are also hesitant or outright hostile to accept sahjdharis in the leadership (even in the local gurudwaras). I know it’s a touchy subject even within each family. However, it has to be faced sooner or later or our next generations will gradually move away from the fold.

Our issues are not unique and almost every faith faces similar challenges. The ones that will survive and grow will be the ones which are able to adapt to the changing realities.

You will have the last word on this.

Thanks.

#355
Dm Saab,
you cannot compare treatment that Muslims give to Prophet and what Sikh`s give to Their Gurus.
there is no mention of the Guru`s personal lives in any Sikh Scriptures.
Gurus call themselves humbly as low of the lowly.

Re: # 356
Pardesi: Reform was one aspect of the Gurus. Your point that there is still lot more to done does not connect.
Guru`s or for that matter any other holy person cannot take guarantee of what people will do in future. Guru`s mission as I see it was not to fix the mankind forever, everywhere. But to give a philosophy and structure that will fit in all the times as a path, whoever wants to follow it.

Gandhi, Gokhle were also great people and politicans with a message of social welfare and obliterating inequalities.

It is not clear to me what your point is?

Re: # 360

how are communist doing in Punjab/haryana? I think communist parties have survived only in Bengal and Kerala.

Re: # 358
Akalis` base is in rural punjab.They team up with BJP to get urban hindu votes.
This actually brings down their credibility because BJP opposes all the major demands of Punjab like transfer of Chandigarh and other punjabi speaking areas to Punjab,distribution of river water according to riparion principle etc.
Akalis-BJP alliance ruled centre as well as punjab for five years but akalis never raised these issues during that tenure.

Re: # 352

``This is where truly secular people have problems with communists and fellow travellers. They admire them for their steadfast opposition to hindu commualists but see it hypocritical of them to support parties like Akalis in Punjab or Indian Muslim League in Kerala.``

Indian commie movement is not based on their own ideology. They were/are the servants of Moscow (until the fall of soviets) and now china. These delusioned people think that they are the only truly ``peoples`` movement left now as Chinas itself is moving towards free market.
These bunch of hypocrites thrive on poverty/injustice in society but themselves have no answer for them. As more sick units get divested, communists parties are just going to lose their mass base.
I remeber how several years back, the Nayanar gov in Kerala was trying to swallow money from hindu religious bodies but didn`t dare to touch masjids and churches. So much for egalitarianism.

Re: # 357

Is there any communist influence anymore in Punjab/Haryana? Maybe the Akalis are teaming up with BJP becuase there is a good chance of winning with them rather than with the Commies.

DM ji
Satpal Daang and his wife Vimla Daang are still very much respected couple not only in Amritsar but all over Punjab.
You are right about the directions.That has been one of the main reasons for the mess in which the communist movement is today in India.

pardesi
I agree with you.Our sikh leadership still doesnot consider it a point worth considering.

#355 dost-mittar

”But let us not make the same mistake that the Muslims have made, which is to issue fatwas of death against anyone who dares to differ with the claim of their prophet`s flawlessness”

Agreed.

As I said, the gurus were not prophets/agents of God or avatars of any kind. They were humans and their actions have to be analyzed and/or criticized in the context of time and prevailing societal attitudes. They were more like social reformers and leaders on a mission to uplift our miserable ancestors. In fact each succeeding guru made their own decisions per needs of the time. God knows, we still have lot left to be done even after all the work done by Gandhi, Gokhle, Raja Ram Mohan Roy and many others subsequent to the Sikh gurus for that land.

Muslim fundos consider the prophet to be God’s exclusive and final messenger, and their holy books are supposed to have prescription for all social, political and economic needs. I do not believe any Sikh has ever claimed that he looks for answers in Guru Granth Sahib for administartion of interest rates. It will be a real tragedy, as you said, if Sikhs regress like others on this issue.

Pardesi#354:

I am in full agreement with your post to both me and dlr. I am a great admirer of the gurus and their tremendous achievements. But let us not make the same mistake that the Muslims have made, which is to issue fatwas of death against anyone who dares to differ with the claim of their prophet`s flawlessness.

dlr:
I would have agreed with you except for one thing. Until the 1970s, the biggest beneficaries of Indian capiatlists` support was the Congress party, and the CPI had consistently supported it upon Moscow`s order. CP(M) didn`t because it danced to Mao` tunes.

BTW I think that the most respected Punjabi communist leader was nominally a Hindu, Sat Pal Daang. He always won his legislative seat from a predominantly Sikh riding.

DM, DW

The Gurus’ actions (Casteism?) 300-400 years back have to be seen in the context of the prevalent Hindu societal attitudes at the times. Equality for women, and castes, was a revolutionary concept at the time. Gandhi on the other hand, had exposure to the western world and his strategy as we all know was to win the hearts of western liberals in order to improve Indian lot as well as to win independence. All kudos to Gandhiji also

Lots of blacks have complained that Jefferson was a slave owner and therefore his proclamation of liberty and justice for all was hypocritical. But again, it has to be seen in light of the times. No one can deny that blacks and women are far better of in USA than many other places due to those ideals.

Upliftment of lower castes is an uphill battle in Indian society and Sikh gurus have made tremendous contribution to it along with many others who contributed subsequently.

Marriages were arranged within the families you knew. It was truer then as it now. Can you imagine the furor the upper castes would have caused if a Guru had married his children in lower castes and then asked people to fight against oppression and lay down their lives for other causes they were espousing? It would have been suicidal from exerting leadership role point of view. Gurus were humans and not God or God’s designated agents/prophets. They lived in the real world and perhaps knew the limitations of the times.

Hindu culture/society (our ancestors) were in deep dodo in all aspects at the time (subservient to invaders, history of “sub chalta hai – Vo din nahin rahe, ye din be nikal jayenge, caste system, idol worshiping, women status) and I am amazed at how these Gurus kept the pilot light on facing brutal challenges from the Muslim rulers, selfish Hindu Rajas and the religious watchdogs of Hindu orthodoxy.

It was fine and dandy to become reformers after British became the unchallenged rulers (1850 or so). Every one (including arya samajees) and his uncle started seeing the light in terms of democratic concepts, casteless society, no Sati pratha and don’t take shxt from any one. However, it took HUGE set of balls on part of Gurus to stand for these things in 1600-1700 timeframe and I hope people give them credit for that.

DrLR:

I fully agree that Sikh leaders were totally myopic, stupid and against the tenets of Sikhism in not embracing Ambedkar and his people. That would have made Sikhism (with turban or without it) a mainstream religion rather than a boutique religion. The sooner these narrow minded idiots understand that the better they can save the principles that are worth preserving. In this new world you need numbers/votes and Dalits joining Sikhism would have not only given Dalits manliness to organize, fight and root out their oppressors in order to gain their god given rights, but would have also enriched Sikhism.

Re: # 352
You are right about akalis and communists` support of their demands.Things are not the same now and there is widening gap between akalis and communists.There are several reasons for that.Historically it has been the opposition of congress which was seen as sole representatve of Indian Capitalist class and the common mass base of akalis and communists i.e. farmers.Emergence of BJP has made things more complicated.Akalis were communists` favoured allies because of their closeness since pre 47 years also and also personal closeness of many top leaders.Larger than life image of HKS Surjeet also had lot to do,because of which lot of top ranking leasers from Punjab who were mainly trade unionists (Jagjit Singh Layallpuri and more recently Mangat Ram Pasla and Chander Shekhar)driftd away from CPM.
More powers to states has been demanded by all regional parties and communists but akalis twisted it in Anandpur Sahib resolution by asserting that sikhs are a separate qaum(and they mean it nation here)and I don`t think communists can repeat same mistake twice.Apart from that they support the resolution.

drlokraj:

``Communists have always supported akalis in punjab during various mass movements except when they associate themselves with BJP or Jansangh in the past.``

This is where truly secular people have problems with communists and fellow travellers. They admire them for their steadfast opposition to hindu commualists but see it hypocritical of them to support parties like Akalis in Punjab or Indian Muslim League in Kerala. BJP is secular at least on paper. Akalis, on the other hand, openly claim to be a party of the sikhs and for the sikhs - I think that it is only recent that they have even opened their membership to non-sikhs. All their demands have been in the name of qaum and panth. They have done great harm to the cause of Punjab by associating it with the Sikh cause: the Anandpur Saheb resolution was good not only for Punjab but also for all of India; but by making it a panthic demand and issuing it from a place of religious significance, they made it difficult for non-sikhs to support it.