Amrita Pritam

Re # 253

``The end result was the same - an entry into a one way street from which there was no exit. You read hundreds of instances in Indian history where Muslims gave Hindus the choice to convert or lose their life, sometimes through torture.``

I know at least one exception to that, Netaji Palkar. He was Shivaji`s COAS who was captured by Mughals, forced to convert to Islam, fought for Mughals in Northwest India, but he became Hindu again when he escaped Mughal army after being posted in the south in a prominent ceremony initiated by Shivaji.

delhiwala#250

You are mistaken about Sambhaji, who was Shivaji`s son and not his guru. BTW Sambhaji was blinded and tortured to death by Aurangzeb in the streets of Delhi.

Re # 249

``monotheism and equality of man is from islam,``

I think that is certainly true, and I do not mean to start an entirely new discussion but
Hinduism does have concept of Monotheism i.e. Adwait (without two/double) and it is
fairly prominent concept.

Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus:

What a paradox of two houses!

There is the exclusive house of Islam where Ahmedis are thrown out of the house but they refuse to give up the ownership of that house.

And there is the inclusive house of Hinduism from which the Sikhs want to escape but Hindus tell them that they cannot leave. Main tau kambal ko chhod-ta hooN pur kambal mujhe nahiN chhod-ta.

Swami Vivekanand said that what India needed was the soul of Hinduism and the body of Islam. This is, in my opinion, what Sikhism is.

tahmed32#249:
``The mughals (aurangzeb) do seem to have tried to get sikhs to become muslims - but that seems to have been for political reasons, since (as Guru Gobind`s letter to him posted by kaura indicates) even Aurangzeb was basically a ``bearded politician`` and nothing more.``

It was not just Aurangzeb, Jehangir tried to convert the fifth guru, Arjun Devji, and when he declined, he was tortured to death by pouring hot sands over his head for three days. You may not think that Aurangzeb was a true Muslim but most Muslims think that he was so and that Akbar was not. More importantly, who cares whether Muslims who forced conversions were following their religion or not? The end result was the same - an entry into a one way street from which there was no exit. You read hundreds of instances in Indian history where Muslims gave Hindus the choice to convert or lose their life, sometimes through torture. Once converted, their progeny would turn against their faith and even claim separate nationhood. No sensible non-muslim should view conversions to Islam without pondering over its political implication, because Islam is not merely a faith.

Re #250

``(I have lived for some time in Nagpur, home of Mahasabha)``

I think you meant to say RSS. Savarkar founded Hindu Mahasabha, probably in Nashik, not sure though.

And I know for sure, while Shivaji was growing up, his Guru was Dadoji Kondev.

Where did you live in Nagpur? Were you studying in VRCE?

Re: # 249
Tahmed: I think have been driven past Sissoli, if I am not mistaken that area is hilly tract or at least, hills are not too far.

You are write about your assesment about monotheticism and equality are common grounds between Sikhs and Muslims. Who borrowed what from who will start another series of thread on Chowk. Though even the original Hindu faith did have concepts of equality but they were totally lost over the thousands of years. Manu Smiritaha became the Shariat for Hindus.

Anyways on a different note;
I have always read many-many times in Pakistani media and books that all the Muslims in neighbouring Pathankot were killed during Partition by the Sikhs.
Well, the truth is that Pathankot/Gurdaspur still has a very sizeable Muslim population. In fact Ahmediya HQ are there, I had even been to their mosque(I know that you don`t consider them as Muslim) but to Indians, they refer them as Musalman.

Shishir(#242),
Ramdas did meet Guru Hargbind in Kashmir, it is documented in books of that time.
This meeting did happen, it is a different perspective to view the relationship between Shivaji and Ramdas. But it is universally accepted fact, even in Maharashtra(I have lived for some time in Nagpur, home of Mahasabha) that Ramdas was Sambaji, Shivaji`s Guru.
(balaji was incorrect). He is considered as his mentor. I don`t what spin is being given to these days to this story.

Major difference that I can see between the two is; Guru Gobind Singh was not after Political Power or Land but to spread his Religious message. Militarisitic nature of Khalsa was a tool for Sikhs not the main ideology. There have been many people before him, who had tried to organize bands against the cruel rulers. Khalsa is/was a way of life in other words a seperate religion.

delhiwala/kaura: I googled sikh religion, and learnt a bit about the basic tenets. It is clearly a mixture of islam and hinduism: monotheism and equality of man is from islam, while concept of reincarnation is from hinduism. The mughals (aurangzeb) do seem to have tried to get sikhs to become muslims - but that seems to have been for political reasons, since (as Guru Gobind`s letter to him posted by kaura indicates) even Aurangzeb was basically a ``bearded politician`` and nothing more.

our ancestral village was in sassoli, district hoshiarpur. lived there since at least the early 1800`s, since the line of ancestors, :-) ends with a certain chaudhry baga (wolf) who romped around at that time.

ballukhan#245

You are right on the mark. `Ram Rajya` is no tiger - real or paper. I think that Gandhiji used the term as a synonymn for ``just society`` and that is the sense in which anyone familiar witht the Indian lingo understands it.

[Frankly I and, I think, most other people have no idea of what Ram actually did as a ruler, other than a highly objectionable act of throwing his pregnant wife out of his house just because an ordinary dhobi made some taunting remarks about her. This was considered a highly praiseworthy act of a ruler making a supreme personal sacrifice in listening to the common man. No one would want THAT to be a law today!]

But the converse is also true! I know many hindus who would believe that Islam`s greatest stereo-types are Aurangzeb or OBL. And many of them seriously think that anything called Ram Rajya can exist today. This is probably because various hindu leaders have tried to project the bogey of RAm Rajya as a serious alternative to a semitic theocracy when it is infact not even a paper tiger.........had this been done by the hindus then such an act would enable the liberal muslims to expose those mullahs who project the paper tiger called ram rajya as an attack on the faith of the muslims and their right to practice their religion.............

Ballukhan, what`s the parallel between Ram rajya and OBL/Aurangzeb?

And did Hindus implement Ram rajya in India? What more do liberal Muslims need to expose the mullahs?

You are talking nonsense.

Since the discussion has shifted to Punjabi in general, can I ask the Punjabi pandits on this board some questions:

(1) Daler Mehndi: I am a great fan, and I think he sings some extremely beautiful songs. Sorry if the words are completely inaccurate; I am a sambar eating South Indian completely ignorant of Punjabi and would welcome corrections / translations.

(a) There is a song which starts ``Sab kucch hai tera jalwa`` and continues ``Sab kucch tera jalwa hai`` in a slightly different tune and rhythm. The change of tune and rhythm is extremely effective and beautiful since the change is very small, but the entire feeling of the line changes.

Depending on the meaning of `jalwa` this could be one of those songs which date back to at least Radha / Krishna times where a song can be interpreted either as a romantic song or as a devotional song.

(b) Another song which starts with some beautiful sounding words: ``Aaja Miyan, ..., changi ..., ishq bimare``. To me, at least, `changi` sounds like a beautiful, mysterious word. The line is then repeated with a slight change in tune and rhythm, but the change is less beautiful and effective than (a).

After that comes (at least to me) one of the most beautiful parts of the song, instead of following the second repetition of ``Aaja miyan...`` with the climax, there comes unexpectedly ``Ishq mein tere galle galle (?)`` which prolongs the suspense and introduces a beautiful phrase `galle galle`.

Finally there comes the climax: ``Ho jayegi balle balle, ho jayegi balle balle (?)`` a climax extremely beautiful because of its simplicity and tremendous force.

(c) Another lovely song full of mysterious words is ``Dardi Rab Rab ...`` which contains the words ``chhui mui``. Makes me wonder what is a ``chhui mui``. It is rhymed with an extremely beautiful half rhyme `koi nahin` as follows: ``...chhui mui. Chhui mui, chhui mui, chhui mui. Tere jaise-e-e-e-e, koi nahin, koi nahin, koi nahin``. The way the word ``jaise`` is sung, with the last syllable being held for 6 or 8 beats is also extremely beautiful.

Re: # 204
``...There is no sharia or civil/criminal code attached to it. It`s a shame if Muslims who lived in this country did not know even this much about the language/culture of the land in which they lived; it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves.....``

But the converse is also true! I know many hindus who would believe that Islam`s greatest stereo-types are Aurangzeb or OBL. And many of them seriously think that anything called Ram Rajya can exist today. This is probably because various hindu leaders have tried to project the bogey of RAm Rajya as a serious alternative to a semitic theocracy when it is infact not even a paper tiger.........had this been done by the hindus then such an act would enable the liberal muslims to expose those mullahs who project the paper tiger called ram rajya as an attack on the faith of the muslims and their right to practice their religion.............

Re # 242

I have never heard of that story but you are talking of Ramdas Swamy urf Samarth Ramdas. And never heard before this that Shivaji was called Balaji.

And he did not make his chela, Shivaji like that. Shivaji was never Ramdas swamy`s chela.
Shivaji maharaj and Ramdas swamy were equally tall in their respecitve fields before they met. Ramdas swamy was a Sant unlike Dnyneshwar, Tukaram, and Eknaath. He was a political sant and provided intellectual and religious might to Shivaji maharaj`s military might.
Ramdas swamy wrote Daasbodh granth.

Re #232

``Sivaji was a small chief and he probably wasn`t famous beyond Maharashtara domain at that time.``

I do not know how to quantify how famous Shivaji maharaj was at that time. But I know Aurangzeb in Agra was shit-scared/worried of him. Shivaji maharaj did Dakshin Digvijay, he conqurered south all the way to Tanjavar. Vijapur`s kutubshai, Ahmadnagar`s Adilshai, and Hyderabad`s Nizamshahi were conquered. Chahtrasaal Bundela took inspiration from him and came to see him before embarking in Bundelkhand, Gaga Bhat came from Varanshi for his corronation. That covers north-south beyond Maharashtra, I think.

And I think he deserves little bit respect and proper name calling. Calling him Shiva ji marhatta is like some one in Maharashtra calling Guru Govind Singh, Govinda punjabi.
I would resent that.

Re: # 239
Spare the sarcasm for Islam please. This individual does not represent the whole of Islam.
As a religion every religion is good, but sometime people`s interpretation hijack them.

Dara Shikoh and Alamgeer Aurengzeb were both born of same father (not sure of mother).
Look at both of them, Aurengzeb killed all his brothers, imprisoned his father and died horribly(read Aurengzeb ki Akhri raat).

Dara Shikoh, a man of peace, true Muslim, a friend of the Guru, they both were Muslims, but what a contrast.

It does`nt help to stereotype.

Farid says: Apney Girheban vich neevy karke dekh.
can`t remmeber the whole verse.

Lokraj: Shivaji versus 10 th Guru.

Guru Hargobind 6th Guru, met a Guru(I think he was called Ramdas or something). This Guru from Maharashtra asked him, if Guru Hargobind is sitting on the throne Guru Nanak, who was a messiah of peace, then why is he carry two swords(Miri and Piri). Guru responded that one sword of Temporal authority(Miri) and other of Spritual authority(Piri), both represent the attributes of God.
This Guru Samrath Ramdas(??) then decided that he will make his chela liek that. This Chela was Balaji(AKA Shivaji).
This meeting happned in Kashmir. It is recorded in one of the books that I had read long time ago.