Amrita Pritam

Re: # 205
Tahmed,Bhindrawala was never considered their leader by sikhs.More than anything,he was to congress what Osama was/is to America.
He was projected as leader by Giani Zail Singh with a double fold purpose-

1. to spoil the Kapuri morcha,which was started jointly by akalis and communists to prevent the construction of Satluj Yamuna Link canal.This movement was one of the best mass movements ever seen in Punjab...there were more arrests than the places in prison in punjab.I remember,the govt converted some old unused forts into prisons.Both Punjab and Centre govts. were shaken.Bhindrawala announced ``dharamyudh``at the same time to divert attention of people and announced march from damdami taksal to Golden temple.

2.Giani Zail Singh had old scores to settle with his old rival within congress,Darbara Singh who was CM of punjab at that time.By proving him to be incompetent CM,he was dreaming to be CM again.
Before this people even did not know about Bhindrawala,who was made hero by the central govt. and later killed when their purpose was solved.The huge mas movement got lost somewhere as akalis were made redundant and terrorists started killing hindus thus creating a temporary divide.By killing lot of popular leaders,most of whom were communists,known to people as fearless leaders,they were able to instill terror in people`s minds and on the other hand,state showed its own ``power``by eliminating the terrorists and even not refraining from demolishing the golden temple.
Bhindrawala and his associates were confident that state will never attack a religeous place and if they do that,there will be civil war.Yes people were pained,agitated,anguished,but for them Bhindrwala was equal participant in the crime.

DM
//...it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves...//

Yeah - a big ``shame`` it is. But we are all better for it.

May be Gandhi knew it all along - cunning bania that he is......He knew that you can never build a nation where you have a bunch muslim freaks who do NOT accept their own culture and where they came from..... So he used Ram deliberately to separate the chaf from the grain - to precipiate the divide, to see where people stand...

And it worked .... The good folks who understood pluralism and secualrism understood what Ram Raj is all about and they stood on the good side. And the freaks[like dino] who didn`t get it and would never get it - stood on other side chanting ``illah allah`` or whatever. Separation was complete and surgical.

Brilliant - ain`t it? That`s my man - Mr Gandhi :) Ram raj was just a ploy.

tahmed32#205

``The attack on the golden temple may or may not have been unnecessary. But it certainly seems to have been effective in eliminating the key leaders of the sikh rebellion in one fell swoop.``

Not really! It had the opposite effect. Before Operation Bluestar, only a minority of Sikhs supported Bhindranwale; after the operation, almost every Sikh felt alienated and angry. Even Golden Temple was recaptured by the militants within a year and was vacated by Rajiv Gandhi through Operation Blackthunder two years later. He did it without the army or police entering the Temple; the militants surrendered, which damaged their reputation among the Sikh masses; on the other hand, the status of those who had died fighting the army in the Gurudwara attained a martyr`s status - their pictures are displayed in the gurudwaras througout the world and their songs are being sung with great fervour. The militancy was broken by systematic police action by a Sikh police officer, K.P.S. Gill, who used sometimes dubious means, such as torture, to curb militancy. BTW the militancy was also broken because Pakistan stopped helping militants after Benazir replaced Zia.

Re # 149

Hyenas are still out there. We must be on guard.

dost mittar #24 The attack on the golden temple may or may not have been unnecessary. But it certainly seems to have been effective in eliminating the key leaders of the sikh rebellion in one fell swoop. Putting himself and his top lieutenants openly in one easily attacked spot (the golden temple) on the theory that the government would be unwilling to enter a religious shrine was a dumb move on the part of Bhindrawale. Probably came up with this brilliant idea at 12 noon.

Diverse:

- ``Ram Raj`` has no religious connotations; I am sure our friend echoboom knows that if no one else does. It`s a figure of speech for an ideal government, just like Adl-e-Jehangir or Solomon`s justice without any religious meaning. There is no sharia or civil/criminal code attached to it. It`s a shame if Muslims who lived in this country did not know even this much about the language/culture of the land in which they lived; it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves.

- There was blame to be shared by everyone in the Harmandar Saheb episode.
- Indira Gandhi and Zail Singh for supporting Bhindranwale and not arresting him when he openly challenged the government to arrest him before he had enconsed himself in the Gurudwara.
- the Akalis and SGPC leadership for doing nothing when he was using the Gurudwara to run a parallel government in Punjab; especially when the two opposing groups - Bhindranwale and Anand Kirtani Jatha - were defiling the Golden Temple by fighting and killing each other while camped in the Gurudwara and when Bhindrawale had the woman leader of the Anand Kirtani Jatha cut into several pieces and when the killers of DIG Atwal ran into the Gurudwara after killing him outside the Gurudwara after he visited the Gurudwara.
- Chief Minister Darbara Singh, for not pursuing the killers of Atwal into the Gurudwara, when all Punjabis, including the Sikhs were outraged by his murder. The Sikh police, ordered by a Sikh Chief Minister to enter the Gurudwara in hot pursuit for the killer of a senior Sikh officer would have had an entirely different optics and much less offensive than the army attack.
- And finally, Indira Gandhi for the army attack on the Golden Temple, which was quite unnecessary, as proved by her own son two years later.

echoboom:

You are wrong. There are more Hindus on this board than either Sikhs or Muslims.

echoboom

How do you feel about the genocidal rape and slaughter of Bengalis by the soldiers of your people in 1971? Lowest estimate is one million dead, remember.

Re: # 196

``I don`t agree that Harmandar Sahib should have been used as a fortress in first place. ``

Me too. But still feel that things could have done differently to prevent civilian deaths and damage to the Temple. I once read an interview given by a Sikh officer who was leading the charge. He was asked what was the urgency to attack the hideout when there were crowd of devotees in the temple. His answer was that the things had come to a boil and Bhindranwale could have any time declared independence and have unflured Khalistani flag and pakistan would have immediately recognised it. The argument lacked firmness/conviction and he said that he regrets it (the action) and hopes such things never happen in future.

Re: # 197

``India has a Sikh PM and a Sikh Army Chief. That is a statement enough that things are back to normal. ``

It is common to see Sikhs in senior gov. positions. A couple of times when Maharashtra gov. wanted an honest, apolitical cop to lead mumbai Sikhs have been appointed as commissioners (Samra after riots and recently Pasricha). Some more ex. of Sikhs who have lead various gov. agencies in recent times, ex-CBI chief Joginder, ex-CEC M.M. Gill, ex-BSF chief (I don`t remember his name, Gursharan (?)), the ex-senior air force officer who was asked to resign for asking political favor. ..( he could have become air chief)......

Echoboom #179:

``Very Very frank & informative discussion here. How come that there is no input from Panjabi-Hindus on this matter. Do they distance themselves from a ``panjab`` holocaust where Sikhs are concerned?``

Echo, I am a Punjabi Hindu from East Punjab. No I do not distance myself from Sikh holocaust. I lost a poor Sikh relative in the Delhi riots and a Hindu relative who was paralyzed for life due to a Khalistani bullet in his back. The Khalistan movement started in 1944 and it is a long story to 1984. I have never laughed at Kaura Sach, who has a true knack for speaking his mind without sugarcoating his opinion. I have the utmost sympathy for Dilliwala, who was assaulted and damaged for life by Hindu rioters.

I did learn Punjabi in Gurmukhi script for matriculation, but while teaching Engineering, I did my Giani from Punjabi University. My inspiration was Master Tara Singh`s speeches and and a desire to write textbooks in Punjabi.

Gandhi in a way was indirectly responsible for Sikh murders in 1984 because he set up a precedent by submitting to emotional blackmail im 1946 by Jinnah. Once you sleep with the devil, you are sure to get Rosemary`s baby. If TNT is good for Muslims, why not for the Sikhs or Jainis, Shias, Ahmadis, Namdharis and on and on. Broken down to the core, Echo can live happily in a nation of Echo clones only. Even urstruly or Dino is a poor substitute.

What else would you like to know?

Re # 191

I know what you are saying. But it is very frustrating at the shallow and silly thinking
of some of the interactors who are so hung on painting Gandhiji as a Hindu communal
just for airing the concept of Ram Raj, completely oblivious of the noble concept of Ram Raj
which transends all religious boundaries and connotations.

Re: # 196

``It was totally destroyed brick by brick and the tank was filled by dead cows to punish Sikhs by Abdali and some other Muslim rulers of Punjab.``

I read somewhere that when the Sikhs became stronger and were able to repeal the Afghans and they made the Afghan POWs to clean the mess/blood stain in the tank.

re:#149 by echoboom
The sikh movement is long dead though you may find some sympathisers for the Khalistan cause in Canada and California.
India has a Sikh PM and a Sikh Army Chief. That is a statement enough that things are back to normal.
BTW, i listen daily to Gurbani. I find it very soothing in the morning along with a cup of coffee before hitting the road for work. When not listening to Gurbani, i listen to the lilting voice of M.S. Subbuluxmi singing praise of Vishnu in ``Vishnu Sahasranamam``.
Go and figure why a south indian who now resides in US and is a proud US citizen should be interested in Gurbani.
Sridhar

Re: # 195
It was fortified to be used as a defence when the imminent attack was appearing closer.
I don`t agree that Harmandar Sahib should have been used as a fortress in first place.

Also, there is a history of attacks from Mughals and Afgans to attack Harmandar Sahib. It was totally destroyed brick by brick and the tank was filled by dead cows to punish Sikhs by Abdali and some other Muslim rulers of Punjab. Sikhs had not forgotten that, that is why so much fortification. It was never intended to actually win a war but to proove defiance, in my opinion.

Re: # 193

``Harmandar Sahib was in Sikh`s hands, it was used as a fortress to defend against the professional Army. ``

Just curious, was the temple fortified because of impending army attack or the army was brought in because of the fortification.

Re: # 185

mohar:

``Sure - I agree with your thoughts. It`s all hindu bania and Gandhi`s fault :) If it was not for them - there would have been a Punjabi Nation. ``

You are unnecessarily heckling this dino guy. Didn`t you know that if it was not for the hindu banias demand for ``Ram Rayja`` in kashmir, no pandit family would have been forcibly driven out by their Islamic brethen. These hindus have yet again betrayed their culture, its just kashmiriyat this time