Amrita Pritam

#125 Romair

``Pehno tay praho,

mein vacation tay haan. Mairay kol, tussaan subhaan day naal, hor sar khapaan da taeem nahin hay.....Tuwaday comments da shukar-gazar haan

har ikk civilization noon waqt dhay naal badaltia rahna chahida aaye.......jinaan noon Punjabi naal innah ishq hay, unnah noonh chahida haye kay ooh Cnada tay Amrika noonh chhad kay, Punjab shift hoonh...........tay udhar jaa kay Punjabi di khidmat karan......Walayat icch rahenday ho, tay aapoon Walayiti ichh gallan karday ho. Phir Punjabi aastay ainj rola paanh dha kee fayida...........

Hoor kuj neeh kar sakday, tay mairey wargoon ikk adh translation hee kar dayo.......``


That was funny :).

Enjoy your vacation and take rest. You are a good man.

Close to half of India`s population is Hindi speaking, yet I have never heard any Hindi speaker wanting to abandon his or her linguistic rights for maintaining national unity - heck, they almost succeeded in imposing it on all of India.

i suspect panjabi has always been a folksy language, never had royal patronage like say tamil or gujrati or maratha. as a result elite ``classical`` compositions found in other languages are kind of missing, therfore futher driving elites away. elites need meat to sink their teeth in so that they can produce PhD dissertations, kind of tough to do that unless there are large 12-th century classical treatise in panjabi you can dissect and analyze. panjabi has rich folk tradition, but lacks the ``classical`` lineage and royal patronage some other languages have. no offense dilliwala and no, madrasi languages are actually not based on sanskrit. mahrastra and orissa are the last sanskrit based languages as you travel south.

Romair#103:

You did not get any convincing example of someone not applauding you, they were even if it was expressed with an element of surprise.

``All of this has been an interesting experience. I must say I am extremely disappointed with our Indian interactors on this site, who cannot see beyond India.`

No, we are not talking about India but Punjabi, especially in Pakistan.``

``This combined with their total lack of knowledge about Pakistan is a very dangerous combination.........``

There is a difference between claiming to be an expert about something -as you do about India - and being acknowledged as such by others. I do not claim to be an expert on Pakistan but, as far as I know PONAM is not a political party but a movement whose constituents are political parties belonging to smaller provinces.

``I wish more of them would take the trouble of doing something practical. Rather than dispalying the size of their misguided, ``honor`` to everyone..........How many of them have written anything about a Pakistani author, leader, writer etc. The only things we have seen are a few travelogues.``

This could be a matter of skills and aptitudes. I can readily recall three chowkies who do translations - godot, temporal and yourself - and they all happen to be Pakistanis.

``A little introspection is always a good thing...........Please practice it......``

I agree, and I hope I do.

Pehno tay praho,

mein vacation tay haan. Mairay kol, tussaan subhaan day naal, hor sar khapaan da taeem nahin hay.....Tuwaday comments da shukar-gazar haan

har ikk civilization noon waqt dhay naal badaltia rahna chahida aaye.......jinaan noon Punjabi naal innah ishq hay, unnah noonh chahida haye kay ooh Cnada tay Amrika noonh chhad kay, Punjab shift hoonh...........tay udhar jaa kay Punjabi di khidmat karan......Walayat icch rahenday ho, tay aapoon Walayiti ichh gallan karday ho. Phir Punjabi aastay ainj rola paanh dha kee fayida...........

Hoor kuj neeh kar sakday, tay mairey wargoon ikk adh translation hee kar dayo.......

dullabhatti

“give me an honest answer please to these questions. Do you think Urdu would have survived today in Pakistan if it was not medium of education?”

The answer in my opinion would be a resounding NO! But really your question is unfair. As Urdu was the official language of Punjab or was at least taught in Punjabi schools before the partition. So Urdu’s survival was not linked with its being medium of Instruction in all of Pakistan.
I think it is time to bring a different perspective to this debate. Except Punjabi, all other major Pakistan languages (Sindhi-Balochi-Pushto) are taught in Schools in provinces. Sindhi learn Urdu after the fifth standard but in other provinces such as Balochistan and NWFP; Urdu is taught from class one.
Three provinces in Pakistan chose Urdu over their respective languages to be the Sarkari Language of that province. Sindh chose Sindhi and in reality, Sindhi is Sindh’s official language.
Sindh has both Urdu and Sindh medium schools besides English Medium Schools. In the urban Sindh (majority Urdu Speaking areas), Urdu medium schools dominate and in rest of the Sindh, Sindh medium schools dominate.
It is correct that Sindhis support that the Punjabi should be the official language of Punjab but they would not let Punjabi to be imposed on Sindh itself.

I don’t agree with your contention that one should get education in mother tongue to be successful in the corporate world. That has not been proven yet. Liberals have imposed some unproven concepts on people and the dynamics of learning have proven those concepts to be wrong. More on this some other time.

Dullahbhatti #121: ``Again, who is saying government should have asked other provinces to accept Punjabi? Of course they should not have and I would support it to protest them and not accept Punjabi.... ``

this is a point you are not seeing in the correct perspective.........

If 2/3rd of a country operates on Punjabi, then everyone in the remaining provinces would have to learn Punjabi whether they want to or not. Even if Punjab does not push it on them. Since they will have to do business with 2/3rd of the population.

Why do you think Pushtu singers are singing in Punjabi now. Do you think it is because it is a creative endevour. No. Because they want to sell in Punjab, which is a huge market. If everything in Punjab was in Punjabi, then anyone wanting to do business there (2/3rd of the market of Pakistan) would have to learn Punjabi. Which they would not do. And would break away.........or try to.......

Now everyone has to learn Urdu, which is a foreign language. And they have agreed to learn it, since it is not one local language dominating others........Much like everyone in India is alright with learning English. But not Tamil. Or Gujrati. Pakistan has the added advantage that it has two languages, across the country, that people are willing to learn: Urdu and English........In the process, other languages lose out.............Infact, Pushto, Baluchi, Sindhi etc. lose out much more than Punjabi........But the gains outweigh the loses, due to which people have accepted it.........including Punjabis.........

dehliwala #116: ``Fact is that there are not too many Punjabi speaking Indian chowkies on this website, pretty much all you see on this thread(4-5 tops)......On a different note, there are many fanatic Pakistanis on Chowk, whose favorite passtime is threatning non Muslims, these chowkies are in majority. ``

You statistics are purely a matter of opinion. There are a significant amount of obsessed haters on both sides. However, the fact remains that Pakistanis, on this site, have written articles about Indian leaders, writers etc. I have written two, myself.........I don`t think a single Indian has written an article, on this site, about any Pakistani. There are only a few travelogues. Why is that?

dullahbhatti #115: ``Do you think Urdu would have survived today in Pakistan if it was not medium of education? ``

It would have survived, at the same pace as the other languages. And would have eventually declined, in favor of the national language. And I would not have complained, as long as the national language, whatever it may have been, was voluntarily accepted........

I think the question is between having a national language or not. And what should be selected. I think there definitely should be one, provided everyone agrees to it. Otherwise there shouldn`t be one. In Pakistan, people have agreed to Urdu. Or let me put it this: they have agreed to it, far more than they would agree to any of the provincial languages. Sindhis have somewhat of an issue, because of the high number of Muhajirs living in their areas. However, the Sindhis have bigger issues with Punjabis........

A voluntarily accepted national language has been a great uniting factor in Pakistan..........

Does that mean Punjabi has been forcefully suppressed. Obviously not. As I keep saying, the Punjabis dominate the country. How can they be on the receiving end? If one language becomes the national language, then other languages lose out. It is natural. One adjusts with the times. People in the USA spoke German, English, French, etc. at the time of creation of the USA. Now they all willingly speak English.

In Canada, people willingly speak French and English. They don`t want to have one language. So they don`t. But they would be more efficient if they willingly spoke one language, like the USA.........

Today I can sit in my house in Lahore or Islamabad, turn on the heater (not to mention my car) which runs on natural gas from Baluchistan, the air-conditioner which runs on electricity from NWFP, eat mangoes which comes from rural Sind, drive on the roads which are paved with tax money from Karachi, as I speak Punjabi with my father.......

The only thing I cannot do would be to send my children to a Punjabi-medium school. Which I don`t want to anyways, because they will not be able to go out in the work forces with a Punjabi education. I would much rather send them to an English medium school........

Now if tomorrow I get a ridiculous idea that to protect Punjabi honor all schools in Punjab and all official correspondence should be in Punjabi, what will happen? 2/3rd of the country will become officially Punjabi. The remaining provinces will object to that, and may break away. At that point, I will lose heater, air conditioner, mangoes, and good roads. I can just sit and speak Punjabi with my dad, as we freeze to death.........

What do I get in return........Punjabi medium schools...........

Rest assured, in this whole scenario, of the creation of Pakistan, Pakistani Punjabis are the biggest gainers. And I have no idea how anyone can portray Punjabi speakers as the suppressed.......Punjabis are the establishment, the Army and anything else.........They have accepted the benefits of ruling over Pakistan, in return for not pushing their language on Pakistan (or on 2/3rd of Pakistan)........

Please read Ahmadmadani`s reply, where he stated:

``Punjabis have sacraficed their language but have kept nation united. If Punjabi was national language instead of Urdu West pakistan would have disintegrated like united Pakistan at time of mr. QAMA Jinnah. Just like Bengali speaker departed Sindhi would have departed for language but Urdu is not ``Punjabi``......As pragmatic people sacrafice is not in vain but then they can Rule Pakistan.

For Punjabi`s language is not sacraed cow.``

He has explained what I am trying to, in far fewer and much clearer words...........

#120

should read as

Again, who is saying government should have asked other provinces to accept Punjabi? Of course they should not have and I would support it to protest them and not accept Punjabi....

>>This was true, perhaps, in 1947, when the govt. decided (correctly in my opinion) to favor a neutral language, which would not threaten any province (though even that did threaten East Pakistan). It is not true today. Had the govt. decided in favor of Punjabi, I am convinced the other provinces would not have voluntarily accepted. >>>

It is like saying `` true initially I pushed Dullabhatti into the well, but then after that I really did not do anyting, he fell in it by his own weight``. Bravo!!

Again, who is saying government should have asked other provinces to accept Punjabi? Of course they should have and I would support it to protest and not accept Punjabi.... and who said Urdu not be a link language or even national language? but you one color one boot vision can`t see beyond that....every thing you have said so for proves that government has suppressed Punjabi willfully in a planned manner..then you turn around start calling it a ``natural`` thing. cheez...are not you the one who claimed few weeks ago that you are not motivated by politics or anythign else take stand entirely based on human rights and fairness???where is the fairness in decision of your country for Punjabi language and where is the fairness for non-Punjabi speaking whom you want to rule over by manipulation?

If 60% of Pakistanis speaking Punjabi had came from some other planet, your argument will hold water....these guys were there and spoke the language even before Pakistan was even a figment of anyone`s imagination. Basically you are saying Balochis or Sindhis will feel outraged if Punjabi learned Punjabi? heap of bullcrap. Let them teach Sindhi, balochi, Pashto in their respective regions...and on top of it everyone learn Urdu and English....if it is too much for a student, then he probably should go home and help his chacha jaan with grazing the buffalos...because if you are not smart enough to learn one additional language that happens to be your own mother language in school, I bet you are not going to be cruising the halls of multinationals ever.

I am not expert on anything...but I certainly know a only bit about Punjabi literature and language scene in Pakistan...on the other hand you claimed more than once you(along with most Pakistanis) know really lot more about India than Indians do about pakistan.

Frankly, it does not take lot of expertise in anything to see a wrong being done...you do see it yourself and cry loudly about it in Kashmir and God knows how many places else, but refuse to protest what you accept happening under your own nose and guard.

Romair, give me an honest answer please to these questions. Do you think Urdu would have survived today in Pakistan if it was not medium of education? Now list any other language in the world that you think will survive for ever without teaching in schools or otherwise to next generations?

Dullahbhatti #112: ``It would be also OK if Punjabi was losing ``really`` due to economics and you state so as an expert(if you were to be one)....truth is it is not...``

There is something you need to get into your mind and accept: I know a whole lot more about Pakistan`s Punjab and what is going on there than you will ever know...........You cannot know the truth, about it, more than I.........So while my being an expert, on Pakistan`s Punjab, may be up for debate, as you have correctly highlighted....Yours being an expert on it, is definitely not up for debate.......You aren`t one..........

``govt policy decision to keep it away from people in Punjab and promote urdu instead.``

This was true, perhaps, in 1947, when the govt. decided (correctly in my opinion) to favor a neutral language, which would not threaten any province (though even that did threaten East Pakistan). It is not true today. Had the govt. decided in favor of Punjabi, I am convinced the other provinces would not have voluntarily accepted.

My mother-in-law`s mother is a Pushtu speaker of Afghan descent. I am convinced that till the day of her death, she looked at me, a Punjabi-speaker, with mistrust and thought that a Pathan would have been a much better option for her grand-daughter..........My in-laws are Pathans who are bi-lingual in Punjabi and Pushto. Yet they exclusivley speak Pushto. That is how scared everyone is of being dominated by Punjabi.......

Go and try to push all the poor in Punjab and other provinces towards local language schools. They will be up in arms. They want to learn langauges like Urdu and English, which give them a leg up..........Even Urdu speakers from Lucknow families send their kids to English medium schools in Pakistan...........As do Punjabi speakers from Lahore.........Do you really think they will start sending their kids to Punjabi medium schools?

``first you agree with above policy of suppression of Punjabi language and imperialism over others through language politics........No self respecting Punjabi who takes pride in his language WILL EVER force his language on Sindhis and Pashto speaking or other people. ``

In India, the suppression part may be true. However, in Pakistan, Punjabis rule. They are the suppressors. They are not the suppressees. The last thing an overwhelming majority should do is to furthur impose its majority on to others.

Try telling a Sindhi or Pushto speaker, in Pakistan, that Punjabis will not impose anything on them. Pathans aren`t even willing to agree to economically useful projects like Kalabagh dam. Look at what is happening in Baluchistan. If Punjabi becomes a medium of education in Punjab alone, it will affect nearly 2/3rd of Pakistan directly. This will, by default, change the dynamics of Pakistan. Everyone from every province will have to know Punjabi to make a living, since 2/3rd of their market will be dominated by a Punjabi speaking system. Punjabi will thus have been imposed, by default, even if the Punjabi speakers do not specicically impose it on others........

The following will give you a good example of how much Punjab already dominates the country: When Benazir, a Sindhi, became the PM of Pakistan, the leader of the opposition, at the federal level, should have been Nawaz Sharif, a Punjabi (of Kashmiri descent, I believe). Nawaz Sharif, the head of the opposition party, chose instead to become the Chief Minister of Punjab. Why? Because the Chief Minister of Punjab is almost as powerful as the PM of Pakistan. In many cases more powerful. Since he gets 2/3rd of the people and resources, under him.

Chaudhry Shujaat, a Punjabi, is currently the head of the ruling party in Pakistan. He should have been the PM of Pakistan, today. However, he passed it on to Jamali, a Baluch. Because he wanted his brother-in-law, Chaudhry Pervez, to become the Chief Minister of Punjab.........and didn`t want two family members having two important posts.......

People outside Punjab are already fed up of Punjab. Pushing a langauge in any manner will be the final straw, I think............It is the sacrifice Punjabis seem to have willingly made, to get the chance to dominate over a large country............In the long and short run, Punjabis have gained the most..........They may be slowly losing a langauge, but they have gained massive political clout............They cannot have both...........

noor jehan was popular with emphasis on was.. NAFK was Hugely pplular in india. indians bought 2000 times more tapes of NFK than all others combined.

Nusrat F Khan and Noor Jehan - i could NEVER listen to their song in entity. I`ve never heard any E Punjabi listen to them. NFK was a passing fashion or hype with good PR .....kind of small Ravi Shankar of 3 decades back.

The only comment I heard now and then is Noor Jehan sings well.....but none had a cassette and they don`t listen to her......

Re: # 114
Romair,
Fact is that there are not too many Punjabi speaking Indian chowkies on this website, pretty much all you see on this thread(4-5 tops).

I will try to bridge this gap, not because I want to prove something but I had been wanting to for long time.

On a different note, there are many fanatic Pakistanis on Chowk, whose favorite passtime is threatning non Muslims, these chowkies are in majority.
Under the circumstances, all Indians can see is that every conversation with a Pakistani revolves around conversion to Islam or Indian woman.
Physchologicaly speaking it is a defense mechanism that they have created to protect themselves, because their spritual faith is week but they need a very strong external armament to prove their Islamiyat.
We need more Sufis like Farid, Bulla and Waris.

Romair, I have mentioned Pakistani Punjabi writers on this forum numerous times...Whenever I see a Punjabi book by Pakistani writers whether it si in Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi I always buy it even if I dont get the time to read it. Majority of the Punjabi books I bought during my trip to couple of months ago were written by Punjabi writers...I am particularly reading Bushra Ejaz these days. My English is not that good so I don`t dare to translate for wider audience...although I have 3 or 4 pieces almost complete but just afraid to complete them.

I will translate one poem by Irfan Malik this week for you.(he might have its english translation also as he does his owns).

dehliwala #109: ``How many Indians have written about Pakistani writers..........I think that Pakistanis mostly write in Urdu, and Indians don`t read Urdu. Whenever Pakistanis write in English, Indians buy their books.``

I was talking specifically about, on this site.....Not in India, in general.....

How about Indians (or Indian Punjabis, at least) writing about Iqbal, Faiz, etc. They are Punjabis, from Sialkot? Faiz wrote in Punjabi (technically he is a Punjabi-speaking Kashmiri). In fact, the biggest Urdu poets in Pakistan, seem to be Punjabi-speakers.

How about the songs of Noor Jehan - the greatest Punjabi female singer of our generation. Do you have any of her cassetes?

How about Indian Punjabis on this site, writing about the life and music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan from Faisalabad - a man who was ranked as the greatest contemporary singer/musicians of any language, to come of out of South Asia, by Time magazine. And the fifth best musical artist in the whole world. He sang almost exclusivley in Punjabi, and now has people in Denmark and Japan listening to Punjabi songs. When was the last time a Punjabi singer sold out in Amstredam and Washington DC, and had mega-stars like Peter Gabriel and Tim Robbins lining up to get him on their albums.

NFAK could be the most famous Punjabi poet/artist/musician, to hit the world scene, in the history of Punjab. No one knows Bulleh Shah or Heer in Toronto. So many know NFAK........

How about just writing about the Pakistani writers, if not their poetry. Amrita Pritam writes in Gurmukhi, however, I was able to translate her, solely from Romanized Punjabi, written in English.......I could probably translate her Hindi works also, in a similar manner.......

OK. Lets forget about Paksitanis, or even Muslims...........How about the Kafis of the various Sikh gurus? Why not translate them on this site, instead of creating unnecessarily hoopla, about people who are attempting to do so?

As I said, now I know why Punjabis have always been ruled by others. They are too busy showing the size of their, ``honor`` to everyone. And I assume you do realize that it has been scientifically proven that size does not matter..............:-)