Amrita Pritam

#91,
How do you know that I don`t know more about Pakistan than you do, wheather it is IT, Army or movies etc??

Anyways, I don`t think that I am getting my point across, humbly speaking, I must have a shortcoming in my communications.

My Observations about you:
1) You are a nationalistic Pakistani who cares more about Pakistani identity and unification that can be achieved by using URDU.

2) You love Punjabi to the extent that it is a language that your ancestors spoke, and you would like your children to know it, so that they can also share Heer, Sussy-Punnu, Mirza etc. It is like me learning Spanish or French to increase my resume potential.

3) You have not showed any pride in being a Punjabi but a Pakistani who can speak Punjabi as a street language.

4) You do have some feelings of goodness in your heart, That is why you are on this thread with us.

5) Your concept of a Punjabi is someone who is born in Punjab, may or maynot speak Punjabi.


My summary:
For me,
Punjabi is a question of survival to preserve our Religious identity. I will go extra miles to learn Hindi, Marathi, Sanskrit, French or Spanish to be competitive in market.
I can speak and write 5 Languages but my thought process is Punjabi/Hindi Combo. The day my dreams appear in English I will consider myself English(it will never happen).
Pakistanis have sacrificed Punjabi on the altar of TNT because they did not know how to retain Punjabi and coexist with others.
Indian Punjabis have maintained a relationship of coexistence with Hindi belt, Hindi is second language in E Punjab.

Dullahbhatti #92: ``either shove Punjabi language down the throats of EVERYONE including other provinces of Pakistan Or Kill Punjabi totally to make others feel good. There is not inbetween solution for him like giving equal respect to all ``national`` languages in their respective regions while use urdu or english as link language across the country or globe.``

You are not reading my replies. You seem to have made up your mind and everything else seems completely irrelevant to you.

For starters, how much time have you spent in Pakistan. Do you even know anything about the place and what is going on there? I will guess that you have spent, at most a few days or weeks. If that.........How in the world can you comment so authoritatively on the subject?

I have basically been suggesting what you are stating, ``giving equal respect to all ``national`` languages in their respective regions while use urdu or english as link language across the country or globe.``

To a great extent that is what is being done in Pakistan. Other than the fact, that the history of local areas needs to be taught in much more detail (not only in local areas, but even across Pakistan). What else can be done? Should Punjabi be made a medium of instruction? That would be catstrophic, due to the reasons mentioned, by me, in previous replies. It would be the equivalent of, ``shoving it down everyone`s throats`` by other provinces, since 2 out of 3 throats in Pakistan are Punjabi........

If Punjabi becomes the medium of anything in Punjab alone, by default, it becomes the medium in all of Pakistan. Even the Sariaki speakers, geographically within Punjab, will not accept that.

Pushto speakers etc. are already concerned that their singers have to sing in Punjabi to make a living, since most of the audience in Pakistan is Punjabi. What do you think will happen if most of the market becomes dominated by Punjabi. All other provinces will have to learn Punjabi to survive, economically. A Pathan, Sindhi, Baluchi etc. will learn Urdu, but I don`t think he will want to learn Punjabi.

You are, thus, speaking with the mindset of someone who feels they or their language/culture is threatened, in their country. I am speaking with the mindse of someone who feels his langauge/culture threatens others already, in his country.

Punjabi/Sindhi/Pushto/Baluchi etc. should be local language electives in all the schools, across the country. Which they currently are not, other than in Sind, where Sindhi alone is compulsory (that is also wrong, if you ask me). The history of all the Pakistani provinces and their historic civilizations should be taught, to all Pakistanis, in detail in Urdu or English, before teaching the history of foreign civilizaitons - England, Saudi Arabia or various civilizations which are curently in India (Bengal, Bihar, Tamil etc.).

And govt. funded language institutions should be set up to ensure the linguistic literature never dies off. These instituions should hire a bunch of poeple with too much free time, like me, to translate and research Waris Shah and Guru Gobind Singh and people like HP to translate the works of various Sindhis...........

Other than that, let the market and Pakistani society decide. And it has decided. People want the medium of instruction and communication to be Urdu and English..........regardless of honor..............

What else should be done? Kindly advise.

Romair#90:

Obfuscation, zindabaad!!

Who said that Punjabis should be imposed on Sindhis, Pathans or others? We are talking about giving a regional language status to Punjabi in Punjab, like Punjabi, Bengali, Tamil, Telugu and several other languages have in India. People like you had tried to impose Hindi in India also in the name of national unity but were defeated in their endeavours, thanks to the protests of those protecting their linguistic ``honours``, especially South Indians.

``I translated a Punjabi poem. Within hours, our colleagues from the Indian side have turned this into a Hindu-Sikh-Muslim issue, blaming Pakistanis for all kinds of crimes. I have even now been accused of trying to eliminate Punjabi from the world, and, ``welcoming its demise.`` ``

All Indians welcomed your translation of Amrita Pritam`s poem. Disagreement started when you talked about the demise of the Punjabi language. As for your viewing the demise of Punjabi with equanimity, this is what you say in the same post:

``...Pakistan is thus lucky to have Urdu. It is one of the biggest uniting factors in the country. Everyone, in West Pakistan at least, has accepted Urdu as the national language. .....It would be suicidal to introduce Punjabi medium, just because DullaBhatti wants to protect the honor of Punjabi.......Decisions like this should not be based on useless emotional concepts like honor etc. They should be based on economic realities of the world............. There is no way the six or so languages in Pakistan (or in any country) are going to survive or grow at an equal pace. Some will lose ground. That is the fact of life.``

>>Punjabi, itself, is very close to Urdu. I

incorrect.

It is Urdu that is close to Punjabi. Farid wrote dohras in 1200`s. We have other samples of Punjabi saying ans poetry from 800s and 900s. The language of Farid`s couplets shows the maturity of language that can`t be attained in few years.....Punjabi was in Punjab long before Turkish and urdu hordes invaded.

During university days Col Virk who had come back for Masters in engineering beause he wanted to get the Brig. title before the fast approaching retirement kicks him out became a good friend of some of us seniors. We would spend some time talking to this guy 2 and half times our age about various issues and he had a good sense of humor..we heard lot of good dirty jokes from him.

One day while couple of friends were visiting him in his studio apartment and he was making tea.....another I asked him:

``karnal sahib, is it really true that armed forces take away ones brain as soon as they recruit you?``

karnal sahib smiled a little and while pouring milk in the tea said ``that is only partially true``.

``What you mean?``

``well`` karnal sahib turned his attention away form boiling tea and was ready to give away state secret `` that only applies to new rangroots and lower level people...in case of commisioned officers they also take away our balls``

in Punjabi ``asal ch dimagh te sirf rangrootaN da kaDD`de ne.....saaday afsaraN de te oh TaTTay vi laah ke rakh lainday ne``.

Fauji brain is extreme by its training and indoctrination. It likes only uniformity of appearance, language and behaviour.

Only two options it sees: either shove Punjabi language down the throats of EVERYONE including other provinces of Pakistan Or Kill Punjabi totally to make others feel good. There is not inbetween solution for him like giving equal respect to all ``national`` languages in their respective regions while use urdu or english as link language across the country or globe.

Muslim Punjabis who were producing people like Ghulam Farid only 40 years before partition now produce self loathing indivuals like some interactors on this board...why? not because Punjabi was inferior but they ahve been convinced through education system and government controlled media to believe so. They have been duped by the elites but can;t see it.

The argument about teaching Hindi and urdu for economic benefits is bogus. It has no validity now....people even in rural parts of India and pakistan study English if they want to prosper....Hindi/Urdu meidums are only getting chapRaasi and lower level clerical jobs...any reason Sindhi or Punjabi educated can`t perform it?

Amrita also said:
putter ehday(Punjab de) bhukhay bhollay wagg
jidhar laye mandaariyaN gaye odhray lagg

Dehliwala #various: ``My point is this, Pakistani rulers always wants to pump into their masses that there is nothing in common with Indians/Hindus, and Pakistan is just an extension of Iran or Turkey......If they follow this logic Punjabi is considered as a Language that is foreign. This is what Mullahs(Brahmin equivalent in Pak) wants to happen.....``

This is actually not true at all. Pakistanis know far far more about India than vice-versa. There is not contest. I would challenge you openly to debate India and Pakistan with me. I am 200% sure, I know more about India than you know about Pakistan. This will be true across the board, for most Pakistanis. In fact, I can make a bet I know more about the Indian miltiary, IT industry and movies than most Indians, themselves.

At the same time, I don`t know anything about Iran and Turkey. I couldn`t, for the world, be able to understand their equivalent of Amrita Pritam. I cannot even understand Ghalib and Iqbal`s Persian poetry (as much as I would like to, specifically since Ghalib`s best works are in Persian)

It seems like most of the information given to Indians about Pakistanis is false. Unfortunately, too many indians seem to believe it............While the Pakistanis of various ethnicities may not be tied to Indian lands, rest assured they are very tightly tied to their own lands, around the Indus.............

``In other words Punjabis(those born in Punjab) will rule Pakistan but will be speaking URDU.``

Yes, this is exactly what will happen. In fact, it has happened already. You have to come to Pakistan, and understand it, to see how much Punjabis dominate the country. It is perhaps impossible for Indian Punjabis to imagine that, because Indian Punjab is such a tiny part of India. While Pakistani Punjab is gigantic, with respect to Pakistan.

There is a strong anti-Punjab feeling amongst all smaller provinces, in Pakistan. The smaller provinces view themselves as Oppressed Nations, and there is even a political party by that name PONAM (Pakistan Oppressed Nations Movement). Bangladeshis hate Punjabis because, they (somewhat correctly) feel that it was specifically the Punjabis who screwed them in 71. Sindhis hate Punjab because they feel Punjab cuts off their water, upstream. And because they feel Punjabis were given the best lands in Sindh to farm. Pathans hate them, because they feel Punjabis will build dams and drown their villages. Mohajirs hate them because they feel it is a Punjabi army that took over Karachi. And they say that Karachi creates an overwhelming amount of the tax in Pakistan, yet Punjab uses it all.........

The latest wave of hatred is from Baluchistan. All these bombs etc. are against Punjab. Not against Pakistan. Baluchis feel that all their gas is taken by Punjab (which it is). Sui, the area in Baluchistan where the gas comes from doesn`t have gas, while I get it in my house in Islamabad and in Lahore, half way across the country.....

But most of all the Baluchis correctly feel that after Gwadar and the massive development that Baluchistan is about to go through, Baluchistan will be taken over by Punjabis. Which it will. Baluchis have hardly any techical skills. They are only 5% of the population (infact half of that population is actually Pathan). All those skills will come from Punjab and Muhajirs (to a smaller extent), to build Baluchistan. So within a generation or so, I think Baluchis as a community (what to talk of their language) will die out, due to the Punjabi mass migration into Baluchistan............

The only really pro-Punjabi group are Kashmiris, who are heavily married into Punjab (like my family) and speak Punjabi as a first language......

And I haven`t even mentioned the fact that 75% of the Army is Punjabi...........

Now in this atomosphere of Punjab dominance, if someone started, all of a sudden pushing Punjabi as a language in schools and everywhere else............People like HP and Zakk and ahmadzai etc. would pull out their rifles, within a second...........However, they are all ok with Urdu, more or less................

So please try to understand the difference situation that Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab exist in...............The former is a Golaith in Pakistan, while the later is a David in India...........The former threatens the rest of the country, the later perhaps feels threatened by the rest of the country............

If I were an Indian Punjabi speaker, more than likely, I would be as emotional about protecting its honor, like dullabhatti etc. However, as a Pakistani Punjabi speaker, I am more concerned about it being used to furthur dominate the country by a overly powerful Punjabi majority...........

Dost-mittar #various: ``As for Pakistan, the Punjbai elite continue to treat their mother tongue with disdain. Even people like you who seem to show a healthy curiousity for the language seem to contemplate its demise with equanimity, if not outright welcome it,``

It is obvious to see why Punjab was ruled by so many non-Punjabis, throughout history :-)

I translated a Punjabi poem. Within hours, our colleagues from the Indian side have turned this into a Hindu-Sikh-Muslim issue, blaming Pakistanis for all kinds of crimes. I have even now been accused of trying to eliminate Punjabi from the world, and, ``welcoming its demise.``

All of this, is obviously, due to the lack of knowledge amongst our Indian colleagues about Pakistan, combined with an unexplainable desire to immediately reach conclusions about Pakistanis...........And apparently an equal desire to claim ownership of the Punjabi language.........Why do Indians want to claim ownership of anything related to Pakistan, so quickly :-)

Please read my previous reply on why Punjabi is dying in Pakistan. It is not an elite-based conspiracy. Quite the contrary, it is a common-person based decision based on his/her economic desires.

Do I personally want the demise of Punjabi. Obviously not. Why would I? Only an idiot would think I do. Of which, this site seems to have plenty. Do I think Punjabi should be the national language of Pakistan? Definitely not, because that will split the country into pieces. Punjabis already dominate the country, and this will be the straw that breaks the camel`s back.........

After the demise of USSR (and Yugoslavia??), I believe Pakistan is the only country, where the populaiton of one province is greater than the combined population of all other provinces. This is a recipe for disaster. And due to this, not only do I think Punjabi should not be the national language, I think Punjab should be divided into three provinces (as should Baluchistan, due to its large size). I would oppose that for Indian Punjab, which is tiny and a minority, but support it for Pakistan`s Punjab, which is far too large in comparison to other provinces...........

Ideally, a country should have a national language, voluntarily accepted by all. Pakistan is thus lucky to have Urdu. It is one of the biggest uniting factors in the country. Everyone, in West Pakistan at least, has accepted Urdu as the national language. They would not accept Punjabi (or Sindhi, etc.).

Urdu medium and English medium is well-accepted in Pakistan as the medium of education, also. It would be suicidal to introduce Punjabi medium, just because DullaBhatti wants to protect the honor of Punjabi.......Decisions like this should not be based on useless emotional concepts like honor etc. They should be based on economic realities of the world.............

There is no way the six or so languages in Pakistan (or in any country) are going to survive or grow at an equal pace. Some will lose ground. That is the fact of life. Even within Punjab, the Sariaki speakers feel their language has been taken over by Punjabi, and many of them want their own province.......

So what is the solution, at least for Pakistan:

- The medium of education and national languages should be Urdu and English, across the board. And this is what it is, and is accepted by nearly everyone, except the tiny die-hard elitist nationalists and sardars and feudals etc (for political reasons, they agitate).

- Through these languages, the culture and history and poetry of the provinces should be taught. This is not done, at all. And this is the real tragedy. Kids read Gulliver`s Travels, but not about Heer Ranjha, Sassi Pannu, Gul Khan and his live in boyfriend Sher Khan from Mardan (just joking!!). My kids should know who Bulleh Shah and Heer etc. were, even if they do not know Punjabi. This is why I translate their stuff. It is not due to honor etc. It is because I am fascinated by it...........

- Local languages should be offered as optional electives. But should not be forced onto everyone like they are in Sindh. I remember, as a kid, watching my sister trying to learn Sindhi, becuase she studied in Karachi. Make the history of Sindh, Punjab etc. compulsory, and make the language an elective. Because the Pakistani population is too mixed now with different ethnicities living in different areas to force them to learn a particular local langauge...........

- The langauges that cannot compete economically will die out, in any country. It is survival of the fittest. If one does not believe this, then why in the world have all of us gone to English medium schools and universities. Why didn`t we opt for Punjabi medium or Urdu medium or Tamil medium. Because English is the economically competitive language to know. Infact, why are we majoring in Java and not in Punjabi......

Ask all the honor-loving Punjabi speakers to send their kids to a Punjabi school, instead of an English school. Or force them to major in Punjabi and not in Comp. Sci. They will never agree...........Quite a bit of hypocricy..........

- The govt. should fund language institutions that can keep the literary works of Punjabi, Sindhi, Pushto etc. alive, even if those institutions run in a loss. However, beyond that, it should let the market and society decide, which language should move ahead...........

Languages should not be turned into religion, and honor and izzat and this and that. They should be learned because one wants to and one is fascinated by them..........

dionysus:

Sutte nooN tay koyee jagaye pur Jaage nooN kaun jaga sakda-i?

Hindu and Sikh Punjabis had no problem in supporting a government led by a Muslim. Sir Chhotoo Ram was the deputy to Sir Hyat`s Zamindara (Unionist) government. It is he who dumped them to support Jinnah`s demand for a Pakistan (for whatever reasons). How could anyone expect a Hindu or a Sikh to accept a demand based on `La Ilaha Il Allah!`?

``Everything east of Ambala could have been sliced away without the slightest discomfort to anyone (read MUSLIMS).`` One year before the partition, sikhs and Hindus were fleeing NWFP and Pothohar.


Sikhs would be in standing in queues to get visas to visit the Golden Temple.....and muslims would be fighting to get Azad UP instead of Kashmir. That is the only thing that would`ve been different.

Re: #86

BTW, I would just like to add that Punjabi Muslims trying to use their majority to take Punjab into a Muslim state was stupid, insensitive and absurd. Lands don`t have religions but if they did Punjab has profounder connections to Hindusim, Buddhism and especially Sikhism than it does to Islam. Neverthless, I maintan that there is no equivalance whatsoever in `partitioning` a fake, phoney and artificial entity like `India` and a true nation like Punjab.

Re: # 77 delhiwala ``Trauma of Parition was caused by Hindus and Sikhs, Wah bhai Wah! Bahut Khoob! Who asked for Pakistan at first place? Was it Hindus and Sikhs?``

So what? We asked for the `partition` of `British India`, an entity that was little more than a convenient adminstrative unit in the British Empire. Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs on the other hand partitioned the Punjab, which religious and caste diversity nothwithstanding was as much a country and a nation as Britain, France or Germany. There is absolutely NO moral equivalence between the Muslim partition of British India and the Hindu-Sikh partition of Punjab. Everything east of Ambala could have been sliced away without the slightest discomfort to anyone. But when Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs forced the British to draw that dreadful line right through Maajha - the very heart and soul of Punjab - pitting Muslim Virks and Sandhus against Sikh Virks and Sandhus they made the trauma and immense suffering of 1947 almost inevitable.

Re: # 83
OK fine.
romair, I am a very neutral person and definitely not communal. I have never visited Pakistan and my knowledge is basically coming from Urdu books and Pakistani websites.

My point is this, Pakistani rulers always wants to pump into their masses that there is nothing in common with Indians/Hindus, and Pakistan is just an extension of Iran or Turkey.
If they follow this logic Punjabi is considered as a Language that is foreign. This is what Mullahs(Brahmin equivalent in Pak) wants to happen.....

There were probably more muslim or are more famous writers amongst them. Under muslim rule, obviously, muslims progressed more in every field including literature. Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Gurdas and others` contribution is far more. Though there texts are religious, their contribution to Punjabi is immense. There are many others whose name I don`t recall. Bhai Kahn Singh`s ``Mahan Kosh`` is another accomplishment.

In modern Punjabi literature, between 1900s and 1970s, Punjabi literature and language was enriched by Sikh and Hindu writers. Most muslim writers who hailed from Punjab wrote in Hindi / Urdu for the films. They have not produced equivalents of Batlavi, etc. in recent times.

Dehliwala #65: ``Similarly, Pakistan was made for Muslims and Koran`s language is Arabic, Urdu comes from Arabic, except some semantics, that is why in Pakistan Punjabi is side language though spoken by mainstream. Eventually Pakistan`s goal is to become totally Islamicnot Punjabiyat.``

This is absolutely incorrect. I have to wonder who keeps pumping such false ideas into our Indian colleagues` minds.......They really need to get their facts straight about various things in Pakistan..........It is sad to see that despite being neighbors they know so little......and whatever is known seems to be heavily influenced with govt. and media bias.......

The language Urdu is most closely associated with is Turkish. Not Arabic. Take a look at the words, if you have time. The word, ``Urdu`` itself is a Turkish word meaning horde. The courtly language of Muslim rulers in India was never Arabic. It was originally Persian. So how in the world would Urdu appear, mysteriously, through Arabic.

The rulers were, themselves, not Arabic either. When Urdu started appearing, they were of Central Asian and Turkish decent. So the Turkish part combined with the Persian part, combined with a local derivative of Sansakrit and resulted in Urdu..........

Punjabi, itself, is very close to Urdu. I haven`t met a Punjabi speaker in Pakistan who doesn`t understand Urdu. And Urdu speakers can pick up a lot of Punjabi. Neither know Arabic................

Re: # 81
``Pakistani Punjabis are not to insecure about this, because, ethnically speaking, Punjabis dominate the country..............``

Read the above lines between the words.
So, Punjabis rule Pakistan but Punjabi is dying.
In other words Punjabis(those born in Punjab) will rule Pakistan but will be speaking URDU.