Amrita Pritam

#327 by dost-mittar

“HP:
You didn`t say whether the historical information in the excerpt I posted was correct or not.”

Here is what you wrote in your post # 279 “I have been scanning Pakistani news media for almost ten years and I have not read a single article which says that Aurangzeb was not a true Muslim.”

Is there anybody in the subcontinent who would deny that Aurangzeb was a Muslim?

What different historical information did you scan from Pakistani Newspapers? Why would Pakistani Newspaper write something different?

If your emphasis is on TRUE then nobody gets to decide that. Echoboom on this site appears to be a true Muslim but he spends some of his time going to porn sites and he enjoys descriptive sex (read his interacts on some threads) So is he a true Muslim?
True Muslim is just a figure of speech. Nobody knows what a true Muslim is!

Re: # 332
when we were reading history in our school days(70s),none of the moghuls/muslim rulers was seen as ``negative``apart from Aurangzeb.It was taught that moghuls came to India as invaders but they made India their home and India accepted them as her own.Same was true about other invaders starting from aryans.Emergence of hindu fundamentalist forces and their stint at the centre is responsible for the emergence of communal agendas in all possible forms.Even congress has tried to hijack some of their agendas and this has happened ever since independence.Hidus declaring hindi as their mother tongue in 50s in punjab was totally hijacked by congress.
Historical names of cities go on living unless some ruling power decides to change them because of their own poltical agenda.Thre are several places after the names of britishers as well and people have no problems with them.

DM/KAURA/DILLI
Thanks a lot.
I know the confusion about the religeous identity historically and the discussions which took place between arya samajis and singh sabha at Lahore.One of the founders op sigh sabha and the editor of their first official periodical was Giani Ditt Singh who himself was a member of arya samaj at one stage.His most fierce arguements took place with swami Daya Nand himself where he defeated swami and hence after sikhs started moving away from arya samaj.Recently his biography has been published.

Sikhs still dont have clear cut separate identity.They still stick to castes.Giani Ditt was almost forgotten because he was from lower caste.They keep saying this that all PPs were from lower castes,but still practice casteism in the same way as hindus do.Still many sikhs follow the old hindu rituals like immersing ashes at Haridwar.As kaura said earlier,they will marry their chlidren in hindu families but not in ``lower caste``sikh families.I am sure you will say it is a process of evolution and because of common ancestral pool,some vestigial traditions are bound to be there and will die out gradually.I am not sure of this,hence happy to be atheist.My wife goes to Gurudwara,but I am happy to stay at home.

DM ji,you are right about the common village deities but sadly that tradition is dying down.In my village,there was a similar place-nobody new about its history-just called baba ThakkraN wala.My friend`s grandfather,who was ex INA soldier started living there may be because of some domestic problem and he made the place more popular.Occasionally somebody will organize akhand paath there but during the 80s,he was killed and now there is a huge gurudwara by the name gurudwara baba Thakkar ji.After a few years it will be only a sikh place,not common place as the polarization has already started.

Re: # 280

``funny thing is that on one hand govt says bad words about aurengzeb, whereas govt names streets in delhi after Aurengzeb, Babur, Humaayon, akbar, Shahjahan, roshanara, Lodhi, Sher shah and the list is endless.....``

there is a city named after Aurangzeb, Aurangabad. There was a demand by Shiv Sena to change it to Shambaji Nagar. Ahmadbad in gujarat to Karnavati.
Afzal khan, a general of Bijapur sultanate who was killed by Shivaji has a memorial built for him on gov. donate land.
There is a policy in leftist-dominated academia: do not mentoin muslim intolerance as it might lead to communal tensions. But when BJP gov. decided to erase certain remarks descrining a Sikh guru as a brigand there were protest against distortion of history.

Re: # 275

``Netizen: Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps those who converted to Islam did so because they did not care to be looked down upon as ``low caste``? I hope I had a hindu ancestor who was low caste, in which case I would be very proud of him for telling the brahmins and kshatriyas and other ``upper caste`` people to go to hell and he was outa here and ``

what if he was a upper caste ;) You don`t have to answer this.

On serious note, what are your views on what buddhism, jainism , christinaity, sikhism or even judaism offers. I think all of them have the same view ``equality of men`` . Ever thought about them?


``becoming a muslim who is told to neither look up to any man nor to look down on any man and to have the humility to understand that all men are equal in the eyes of God.``

even the dhimmis. Dude may be you know half Koran, the one used for conversion purposes. can you explain me the concept of dar-ul-islam and dar-ul-haram. will a kafir still go to heaven and get houris or needs to be beaten up and converted to Islam to get them.

``Thanks for trying to explain the ``bravery`` of your ancestors and the ``treachery`` of mine (treacherous converts, in your view) - the plain fact is that neither you nor I know what exactly what our ancestors did over the past couple of thousand years. ``

does that mean that you don`t look at what happened or shaped the subcontinent over a couple of thousand years? i think i have touched a raw nerve here.

``And given this preoccupation with ``ancestry``, I suggest you read the book by Bill Bryson ``A Short History of Nearly Everything.``. It will open your eyes on how meaningless this term becomes if you go back a few centuries, and thus the entire basis for race-based nationalism or religion-based nationalism of the kind promoted by BJP.``

My friend, this is seen everywhere in the world. chinese hating japs, greeks hating turks, armenains hating turks, ukrainians hating polish, polish hating russians, russians hating germans......
BJP is not the only nationalist party in the world. even the communist chinese are as nationalist as BJP guys. each country/province/region has its own. Islam is considered as Arab nationalism. Ponder over it.
I have already read that book. thanks though. so after reading it, what are your views on koran? is it the ultimate truth? let me clarify, i am not here for ``hindu good islam bad``, i am not a hindu by religion, i don`t even believe in the existence of god.

`` Fortunately, hindu nationalism ends where the Pakistani border starts.``

good for you. but mullahism keen on taking you guys back to 7th century arabia starts. Asman se gire, khajur pe atke .....

Re: # 326

``i would have to disagree with you slightly on your assertion that christianity remained a jewish thing until paul arrived on the scene. christianity began the day the risen christ appeared to his disciples as is indicated in the book of acts. . . ``

Two copies of Acts have been preserved. Most ancient manuscripts are of the shorter version, which is apparently close to the original writings of ``Luke.`` At some later date, an unknown writer modified the text in a number of places. They made changes and additions to the original, in order to match the then current beliefs of the mainline Christians. For example, Acts 15:20 originally referred only to Jewish ritual demands concerning allowable foods. It was later changed to refer also to sexual immorality - an increasing concern of mainline Christians. The longer, adulterated version appears in modern-day western Bibles.

Acts describes only two groups within the Christian movement:

Jewish Christians: the Jewish reform group organized by Jesus` disciples (only during its first 15 years). They followed the traditions of circumcision and the Law.
The Jewish Christian movement, also known as ``The Way,`` was headed by James. John and Peter were very influential in the group. It initially included the eleven surviving disciples and many of Jesus` other followers. This group was centered in Jerusalem and viewed itself as a reform movement within Judaism. They required their members to follow Jewish dietary laws, arrange for ritual killing of animals as sacrifices in the temple and to have their male children circumcised.

Pauline Christians: an independent religious movement made up of the membership of the mainly Gentile churches founded by Paul and co-workers during three missionary journeys
The Gentile Christians were led by Paul who went on three missionary journeys, founded many churches, and preached the gospel throughout much of the Roman Empire. ``Luke`` describes Paul`s conversion to Christianity in Acts 9. Throughout his career, Paul experiences a great deal of conflict with the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. Paul was spreading the gospel to Gentiles, but without requiring that they be circumcised or follow the dietary and behavioral rules of the Mosaic law.


``judeo-christian is used in the sense that much of christian practice is derived from jewish ritual and custom for lack of better words, but the differences were established on the day of pentecost. . . christianity is not a jewish sect, and thus not part of the jewish faith.``

The point that I was making is without Paul, Chirstianity would have remained just a Jewish sect. Today Christianity is not, it has out grown Judaism and is the largest religion in the world. But all this because of the missionary activites of Paul.
For more than a century some scholars have claimed that Paul should be understood as the “second founder of Christianity.” What they mean is that Christianity is more than just the religion that Jesus preached. It is also the religion that preaches about Jesus. And more than any other person, it was the apostle Paul who shifted the focus of the religion from the proclamation of Jesus to the proclamation about Jesus. One could in fact make a case that without Paul, Christianity as we know it today would never have been possible, and that the Western world--which continues to be, nominally, at least, Christian--would never have adopted this faith, and would have remained firmly committed to the various polytheistic religions of the Roman empire.
Paul’s importance to Christianity, and hence, to world history, can be seen in three areas. First, with respect to the book that stands at the foundation of the Christian religion, the New Testament. Without Paul, the New Testament would be radically different, if it had come into existence at all.
What would have happened had Paul never lived? One could argue that the vast majority of people who today call themselves Christian would still be worshiping the gods of Greece and Rome, and Christianity would be one of the small sects within Judaism, with little impact on the world around it.

link: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/143/story_14323_1.html

DM,
Thanks, I knew it but was`nt sure about it.

Sindhis are interesting, they goto Gurudwara for all major rituals(marriage, birth, death), younger generation is going away from the Gurudwara(you are right).

Shish: Kiske age been baja raha hai yaar. Tumcha Kal Waste kareel.
A real Sikh would see all the descrepancies and take the charge to fix them, not use these matters excuses to let go of Sikhi.

I just met a man yesterday, who had disasscociated himself from the not only Sikhs but also Indians. His argument was why go to the Gurudwara, where people have politics.

Only weak feeble minded people talk like that, real Khalsa work even harder to make the difference.
Imagine if Guru Nanak had said, ``O` Why bother let them go where they are going, let me meditate in peace`` instead of doing what he did.
This character is not a Sikh, he is in love with his own ego, that`s it.

delhiwalla:

Guru Angad Devji was a Trehan Khatri.
About Sindhis, from my own circle it seems that the sikhi tradition among younger Sindhis is dying. Forced to make a choice between a sikh or a hindu identity, the younger ones are not coming to the gurudwara any more, at least not in Ottawa.

HP:
You didn`t say whether the historical information in the excerpt I posted was correct or not.

Re: # 308

netizen:
i would have to disagree with you slightly on your assertion that christianity remained a jewish thing until paul arrived on the scene. christianity began the day the risen christ appeared to his disciples as is indicated in the book of acts. . . in the first chapter. i will not post the entire chapter, but christ`s words to his disciples are worth noting:

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth..

judeo-christian is used in the sense that much of christian practice is derived from jewish ritual and custom for lack of better words, but the differences were established on the day of pentecost. . . christianity is not a jewish sect, and thus not part of the jewish faith. christianity shares similarities with the jewish faith, while diverging from it as well. baptizing in the name of the father, the son, and holy spirit is one of the ways. . . circumcision is another. (even though there are cultures where christians still are circumcised, such as in pakistan). and there are other ways.

jesus was a jew. but jesus`s followers were not. the twelve disciples, peter, andrew, james, john, philip, thomas, bartholomew, matthew, james of alphaeus, simon, judas (not iscariot) and matthias who replaced judas iscariot became christians by baptism with the gift of the `holy spirit`, and those baptized in the name of christ were not followers of a jewish sect. they were by baptism christian, witnesses to christ, and a new way of life.

just thought i`d bring your attention to this. you seem to be the carrier of all sorts of information. . . but your interpretation is not wholly representative of how and what we believe as christians.

323,

This is taking place again today.


Manikaran in the Parvati valley is beautiful and pictureseque drive. There are hot springs. A gurudwara and mandir share common ground and langar (kitchen). The mutherfukking `sadhus` are stoned with narcotics, inappropriate with women.....hassle pilgrims (mostly sikhs)....They have installed Hindu idols in the gurudwara. I threw away the `parsad` received at the mandir.... and refused the langar....ran out of there after 5 minutes......took us 4 hour drive to get there..... told the others to do the same. The place is filthy.

I did the samething - threw away the parsad at ``Gurudwara Chola Sb.`` - Dera Baba Nanak near the Pak border opposite Narowal/Kartarpur. I wasn`t taking any parsad from mutherfukking mahants....and their business.....

#317 shishapa

I cannot change your attempt to put spin on something I wrote. You need to read history and learn a few things before hitting the Keyboard.
Your RSS trained head will clear up once you begin to read history instead of RSS.org

The Mahants at the Gurudwars were Hindus. They had desecerated the places in every way......They installed idols of Hindu dieties......They raped, killed on the premisis.....brought in Hindu rituals.

Led to sikh agitations in 1900s......a lot of sikhs died.....most infamous Nanakana Sb. Saka (massacre).....Sikhs took over Gurudwaras with force and formation of the Gurudawara Act and SGPC.

These events and hostility by Hindu Orgs. like the Arya Samaj created the rift and distinction.

My nani`s several sisters didn`t have sikh names....ALL were hindu names.....though they were Sikhs....probably because they hailed from the eastern most part of United Punjab. My grandparents generation were born in early 1900s. They didn`t visit any Saadhs, pirs, or mandirs - neither did their parents who lived in late 1800s. It was frowned upon.

A few years back, I tried visiting some muslims places that were abandoned in 47. I got yelled at. This has happened more than a few times.

Re: # 315
Also, P P were from Hastinapur(UP), Lahore, Bidar, Puri and Dwarka.

Re: # 315
Also, P P were from Hastinapur(UP), Lahore, Bidar, Puri and Dwarka.

DM #306,
If Dawn is your source of info then I just might tell you have I have not read it in more than two years barring headlines here and there. If you are looking for non-info about Pakistan, you read Dawn. Dawn`s readership is generally Urdu Speaking from UP, CP and articles in Dawn cater to its readership.

Both Ayaz Amir and CowasJi are two columnist whose opinion changes as often as wind changes directions in Karachi. I am not sure about the quality of “Historical” articles in Dawn magazine section but I know one thing they never publish any thing that represent Sindhi, Baloch or Pukhtoon History. They don’t even bother to print article that contradict the Official history views.
Some source of Info you have!
I guess nobody ever told you about who the Haroons are. Ask Omar Qureshi sometime!

Netzen # 304. ``As non-muslims are decreasing as % I guess there is a less chance of knowing others.``
There are more than 1%:)
Only rural Sindh has a significant Hindu population and I doubt that rest of the Pakistan is conversant with any other religion besides Islam. That too is a big question mark!