Amrita Pritam

#221

I think this more accurately represents the Sikh POV vis-a-vis Bhakti

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhakti.html

i.e. Sikhism developed in the atmosphere of the Bhakti movement and drew ffom it, but in essense is diffrent from the Bhakti traditions.

#220 by tahmed32

(contrary to what you are taught,) sikhism beginings can best be explained as one of the several baba-cults or bhakti-movements formed all over india during that period as a revolt against brahmin orthodoxy. in this revolt, lay baba-folks re-interpreted much of vedantic philosophies whereas the brahmins were busy saying their vedic mantras without understanding them. common theme among all these bhakri movements is rejection of classes, dogma and rituals, and a personal loving connection to god. these movements were loose..but had some connections as it obvious by finding a far-southern st. namdev (deccan) writings in SGGS.

formalization of sikhism as a 5-K based panth was much later .. as you will be informed soon .. something in shish-ganj etc.

now more khalsa sikhs can take over...

kaura: wasnt the sikh religion founded as an offshoot of islam (combined with hinduism)?? (this is a question, not a statement).

Re: # 220
Tahmed: Please be careful where you ask these questions.

My $.02:
As one Chowk Elder told me that Guru Nanak clearly broke away from Vedic, Brahminic Hinduism to create a bridge between all the people of his time(mostly Hindus and Muslims).

He equally condemned the corrupt Kazis, Mullahs as much as Brahmins. His message was very clear that there is ``No Hindu No Musalman``, every body is judged based on their action here and hereafter.
Muslims were happy that he is criticizing Hindus hence he is more of a Muslim, Hindus of his time took him as a messiah to save them from Turk/Afghan onslaught.
His main companion was Bhai Mardana, a Marissiya from his village. His interactions with Shaikh Rukundi and other Shaikhs of Punjab at that time are still sung by Sikhs in a prayer called Asa-Di-War in the morning.

Anyways, Sikhism`s commonality with Islam is of:
One Monothetic God
Regular prayers
Mysticism

It has similarities with Silsilawadi Naqashbandis of Sufis, instead of Dancing Dervesh, we have shabad singing Raagis praising the one God.

There is not much in common with Wahabi version of Islam with Sikhism that is practiced in Muslim world these days. I heard that people in Pakistan look with suspicion on those Muslims who goto Dargahs of Sufis.

Re: # 220
No Tahmed bhai,Sikhism was the culmination of the Bhakti movement within Hinduism which had lot of commonalities with Sufi tradition of Islam.
There is no basic differences in the philosophy from the Sanatan Dharma.Gurus mainly condemned the ritualism and caste system.Guru Gobinb Singh did take few steps similar to Islam like asking sikhs to follow only Guru Granth Sahib,declared that there will be not human guru after him and finally that use of sword is justified for the defence of religeon when other methods fail.Basic differnces from Islam-Guru Granth Sahib is not considered a revealed book and the Gurus never claimed to be prophets and Sikhism does not consider followers of other faiths to be kafirs.

214,

It is not even an issue for Hindus/Budhists/Sikhs/Jains etc. to see and appreciate the goodness and beauty of other religions and philosophies. They are pretty secular and do visit other`s places of worship without inhibition and with respect.

This is in stark contrast to the rigidity of the Semitic religions and its offshoots.

Re # 216

I wish those nalayaks, Jagadish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar were taken care of just the way Makan was cared, if you know what I mean.

Dost Mittar/drlokraj/delhiwala: Thanks for adding to my knowledge. My comments were based on what I used to read in the press and hear from my elders (a couple of whom were in the ISI back then), and the clear impression I got was that Bhindrawale really screwed up when he put all his eggs (himself, key lieutenants) in one basket (golden temple). While no doubt bhindrawale became a martyr (as DM says), but the sikh rebellion also died down for all practical purposes.

I agree with drlokraj that bhindrawale was no more representative of sikh sentiment than bin laden is of muslim sentiment. It takes a few bad eggs (to continue the above analogy) to create violence in society. Most people in any community just wish to have peace in which to go about their business of earning a living and raising children.

delhiwala: dont mind the 12 noon joke. no community has a monopoly on dumb mistakes. and niazi did not need to wait till 12 noon to do something stupid: his clock was stuck at 12 noon at all times.

#201,
There are quite a lot of Sikhs in high positions, simply because they had higher rate of education than their percentages in the population of India, when compared with rest of India.

Your other point about Sikh PM;
MM Singh was not elected by Indians, voters voted for Sonia because whe was related to Indira Gandhi. MM Singh is a bureocrat of high callibre and I am proud of that fact.
If you take sampling Gallup pole of Indian masses today, I bet nobody would want him as PM. Same goes for IK Gujral and Deve Gowda, these guys got the position due to vaccum in Political circles, just like Dosanjh in BC became premier to fill the vaccum.

I am an Indian and a Sikh who also has Hindu, Sikh relatives, I was almost killed twice in riots in India, I had seen how a dead person looks like when he is burned for 3 days and the stenching smell of semi-burnt flesh.
I also have some Hindu relatives (Jutt Punjabi Arya Samaji), who taunted me after the riots that howcome I survived the riots.
I also had a Hindu Baniya neighbour who stood outside my house to save it from being burned from the rioteers. I had a Bihari Dhobi who helped us in buying ration when we were locked in out own home for 10 days.

Despite my wounds, I don`t hold grudge against the Hindus, but against the corrupt politicians who wanted to extract the mileage out of Khalistani movement.

During early 80s, CRPF and other Govt. orgs CREATED the `terrorists` by torturing youth, humiliating families etc. Anti - sikh forces were given support. CRPF officers used to laugh and tell how they create terrorists. They would drag the youth in harvested fields tied behind a jeep , and then let the youth go free to join `terrorist` bands.

Most of the demands were genuine. Bhindrawala was outwitted. He began as a pawn who developed his own aims. The grieveances of Punjabis/ farmers (almost all happened to be sikhs), were genuine.

Akalis are mutherfukker hijras, basturds of randees. Bhindrawala and his antics were ignored and full support given to his activites by CID. There is a recent book by CID officer who said he supplied the terrorists with weapons in the Golden Temple.

Golden Temple shouldn`t have been converted to a fortress. On the same note, it shouldn`t have been attacked. espsclly, on a Guru Arjan Dev`s shahidi day. Most of the killed turned out to be innocent pilgrims. Sikh youths visiting to commemorate the day, were executed.

Sikhs have always avenged an insult to their shrine. If they didn`t spare Abdali`s soldiers, Massa Rangar etc, why did the delusional randee think that nothing would happen to her. the whor e shouldve died a worse death.

The basturd Brar told lies after lies last year and contradicted himself several times last year in an interview.

Re # 212

That is the beuaty of Indic/Eastern religions/philosophies as opposed to Semitic religions in their purest forms. You do not stray from you path by straying from your path.
I hope it stays that way and prospers and spreads once again.

To add to Rsridhar,

Gurbani is soothing. I didn`t pay much attention to it growing up. Sung by good ragis it is soul stirring. Recently, I went to a house warming ``Chath`` of Sikh-Hindu couple. Most present were non Punjabi Hindus. They were so moved by Gurbani that they were singing along and clapping with the rythm, and gave money to the ragis.

There is simple yet beautiful gurudwara at Rawalsar in HP, set in a pictueresque spot. Most visitors were Tibetian/Budhists, who spend days learning kirtan and Gurbani.


Most gurudwaras have more non sikh visitors. I stayed at the Simla Gurudwara. Hindus in masses (from all walks of life) would stop touch the floor with their foreheads and move on, some left money at the door. I was surprised and moved by this.

DM
//...it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves...//

Yeah - a big ``shame`` it is. But we are all better for it.

May be Gandhi knew it all along - cunning bania that he is......He knew that you can never build a nation where you have a bunch muslim freaks who do NOT accept their own culture and where they came from..... So he used Ram deliberately to separate the chaf from the grain - to precipiate the divide, to see where people stand...

And it worked .... The good folks who understood pluralism and secualrism understood what Ram Raj is all about and they stood on the good side. And the freaks[like dino] who didn`t get it and would never get it - stood on other side chanting ``illah allah`` or whatever. Separation was complete and surgical.

Brilliant - ain`t it? That`s my man - Mr Gandhi :) Ram raj was just a ploy.

tahmed32#205

``The attack on the golden temple may or may not have been unnecessary. But it certainly seems to have been effective in eliminating the key leaders of the sikh rebellion in one fell swoop.``

Not really! It had the opposite effect. Before Operation Bluestar, only a minority of Sikhs supported Bhindranwale; after the operation, almost every Sikh felt alienated and angry. Even Golden Temple was recaptured by the militants within a year and was vacated by Rajiv Gandhi through Operation Blackthunder two years later. He did it without the army or police entering the Temple; the militants surrendered, which damaged their reputation among the Sikh masses; on the other hand, the status of those who had died fighting the army in the Gurudwara attained a martyr`s status - their pictures are displayed in the gurudwaras througout the world and their songs are being sung with great fervour. The militancy was broken by systematic police action by a Sikh police officer, K.P.S. Gill, who used sometimes dubious means, such as torture, to curb militancy. BTW the militancy was also broken because Pakistan stopped helping militants after Benazir replaced Zia.

Re: # 207

Benazir sold the names of Sikhs to Rajiv Gandhi in his famour visit to Islamabad.
She wanted to teach Sikhs a lesson, who were considered Zia`s friend in those days.

Re # 149

Hyenas are still out there. We must be on guard.