Amrita Pritam

Re: # 346
You are getting upset, did something bother you? My intentions are not to poke-provoke your personal choices. I am assuming that you are upset over ``your living in UK while being a Communist`` comment. I respect communists for their dedication and loyalty to their beliefs and discipline. For e.g. Basu had even refused to goto West for medical treatment on conflict of ideology reasons.

If I were you, I would explain my stand on that point itself with all reasoning and rationale, again assuming that this is a discussion and it is your prerogerative to answer something or ignore it.
A gentlemen would not take hurt in my comment and either politely refuse to answer with words such ``let us not share that or your totally wrong etc`` or not answer with attacks with reverse physchology.

Kaha Sunya muaff Karna Te
Jee Ayaa Nu!

Re: # 349
No hard feelings.The conversation got a bit off the track.We can discuss those issues on a different forum.
Regarding caste system and sikhism--DM`s example of Gandhi is pertinent though there is one difference,Gandhi always defended the Varna based structure of Hindu society and never wanted abolition of castes whereas gurus,especially Guru Gobind Singh ji,were more radical and the establishment of Khalsa panth was meant at that.But sadly,``amrit chhakna`` has become just a ritual now and lost its meaning.Ambedkar had decided to become sikh along with thousands of his followers and the stage was set for that when withdrew because of a comment made by a very senior sikh clergyman``kee hun akaal takhat tay aa kay chamaar chuhRay baithangay?``Ambedkar burnt hindu shastras publically and embraced Budhism.But his first choice was always Sikhism.Casteism led to the downfall of Hinduism and will do the same to Sikhism if appropriate steps are not taken.Relatively recent fight over a gurudwara near Jalandhar,which led to curfew in the village for several days, is example of that.
Communists have always supported akalis in punjab during various mass movements except when they associate themselves with BJP or Jansangh in the past.

delhiwala:

If Guru Gobind Singh could find punj pyaras from different castes, was it not possible for any of the gurus to arrange marriage with someone of another caste?

I believe that the gurus fought against the evils of the caste system, but there is a difference between fighting the evils of a system and fighting the system itself.

Gandhi lived among sweepers in the Bhangi colony. He performed the tasks of a sweeper, including cleaning toilets. Still, he can only be considered as a reformer of the system and not against the system itself.

Re: # 348
DM Uncle,
There is a thin line, I can see your point about what you are saying from one side of the river.
But the view from other bank of river Ottawa is; all of the Sikh Gurus emphatically spoke against Casteism, blind rituals and woman`s inequality. They integrated all the castes into one. It is hard for me to call them Casteist based on your point. We will never know why they did not marry outside their castes. Also an American Sikh woman once asked me why there was no woman Sikh Guru.

I don`t know the answer nor I intend to find it. This Panth is for me and I am sure for others there are different paths.

tahmed32:

Has conversion to Islam meant escape from caste system? Here is an excerpt from a news item from today`s dawn:

``In agriculture, bonded labour was most prevalent among sharecroppers in parts of Sindh and Punjab. In Punjab, it is found in a severe form among a category of permanent agricultural workers. In these cases, bonded labourers usually belonged to the lowest castes or were non-Muslims — a vulnerability reinforced by the fact that their homes were located on the landlord’s property. The threat of eviction ensured labour discipline.``

Please note that the news item distinguishes between non-muslims and those (obviously muslims) of lowest castes.

You do not have to worry about your ancestors being of low caste:-)

``Tahmad sahib, how old are you? So finally in year 2005..at the age of 13 you have googled and found the truth about something that was happening or is in your backyard?:-) ``

It`s not that amazing. All those years these desi mangoes were turned into coconuts, white inside. In 47 some of the coconuts argued that desi simple cutcha khatta green mangoes are actually alien kiwis ... green inside as well. After 60 years you find hairy kiwis in hyena land and coconuts feel they cannot sell them as coconuts in the west ... that is the real anguish of coccomuts

These folks call Shivaji as brigand, when they forget that after Shivaji`s death western Maharashtra`s eligible martial population (men of age 16-35) was probably less than Aurangzeb`s well equipped forces Aurangzeb camped in Maharashtra for 27 years These years were four years after Shivaji`s death. I guess this will not be in babarnama or MacaulayNama. In those namas one finds mostly a lie which needs lot of pages to substantiate or justify it. These hard nuts cannot get this simple truth. if the chiitta (seed of the manas) is white or green and enslaved then the intellectual analyses is futile. Such a chitta can never do the syntheses for common good. It will go on dividing the community.

Echo probably in his boom-boom mood made me and someone else an honorable enemy. He is not my or India`s enemy ... the enemy is within me and India...I also acquired the diffidence, ``cannot do`` and ``it’s not possible locally`` attitude. That is where Shivaji as a shining star guides the millions in becoming master of their own destiny, and not chase some holy ghost in a distant desert post. This hulla-gulla in the name of Alla is utter nuisance for Indians of 21st century. We know hulla in the name of Alla is for gulla, the collection at the end of the day. If one shits in the local Ganga and reveres distant zum-zum then naturally this “otherness” breeds hate among the locals. You may come up with lot of garbage such as Aryan Invasion Theory to make the local groundless. But we know there is no such thing as Aryan like Mayan. Arya means noble, does not mean race to most of us. Draupadi was as dark as Phulan Devi. While remodeling my home I came across this http://vastu2vaastu.com/ I guess we were taken for a very very long ride by MaxMueller and coconuts who followed him.

Our heroes are local Shivajis, Guru Govindsingh, CV Raman, Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Phule, Baba Amte, Narayan Murthy and thousands of Mahadba Mistries who create appropriate technologies and build the community India from ground up. Religion is a Semitic concept, alien to India. There are many panths or paths for ``real`` growth.

Few factoids: British accentuated and converted a Sikh panth into a religion Sikhism, so that they can use the siklh soldiers in 1857, to guard the charas and ganja post -Hongkong, Singapur. Ponder over this - why the Air India jumbo bombing accused in Canada are set free? Why Khalistan headquarters are in DupliCity and Hyena Land?

BTW Shivaji`s father, Shahaji was named after a local saint who was a Muslim by birth.

drlokraj:

Is this Sohan Singh Josh the same person who was a famous trade union leader in Kenya?

delhiwala, kaurasach:

The kaura sach is that even the gurus did not completely abandon caste. As far as I am aware, none of the ten gurus married their children outside their caste or themselves did so. And, of course, they never found anyone outside their caste to be a nominee for their gaddis. After the third guru, they even restricted the gaddi nominees to their own family even if they were minors.

Re: # 341
DM ji,he was one of the founders of SGPC,later joined Naujawan Bharat Sabha of Bhagat Singh and became its president.I am not sure whether he went to Kenya at any stage.
He was one of the foremost communist leaders of Punjab and was CPI,Punjab`s general secretary till his death before Avtar Singh Malhotra.

Re: # 343
I have heard of a Sohan Singh Josh also, maybe he added ``Josh`` to his name, in Kenya.

I was reading about the communists movements all over the world.
It seems that in 1920ies-50ies, it was fashionable for any educated person to think like communists. Proletriats, lal lehar, Mazdoor Union, Kisan Sabha, Samaji movements.
All these terms are biproducts during the time Soviet Sun was rising.
Also, the other alternative i.e. capitalist UK/USA and WEST was terrible in it`s policies of subjugations of those not like them.
Under the circumstances, any educated person would get excited by the stories of Lenin, Marx and some others. Even today, if anyone read literature by any Indian Communist, scoialist. It talks about the same. Once again, Indians did not have something of their own. They relied on semi-west(USSR, Spain) to give them a model of political party. No disrespect to them but clearly they could not see what Communism was breeding in USSR and Eastern block. How it was meant to steal power from one and hand it to another power, who is willing to sacrifice it`s millions for the sake of an idelogy that may or may not work.
I am neigther bourgeoise nor Bolshevik, but I did read lots of Russian books translated in Hindi(language that I am most proficient with) about this subject.
Kolkhojs, collective farming and it`s benefits..... but where does it end.

Why did communism fail? Howcome, it`s original propunders are it`s worst enemy now(Russians)??????

I am not just bashing commnunists because of what happened to them in Punjab, afterall it`s main leader was a Sikh till last month(HKS Surjit).

My inference:
Without any Dharam there is no Karam
Without any might you are not right

PS: Drlokraji, You are enjoying the fruits of a country that allied itself with an ally that called Communism as it`s worst enemy, and basically defeated it outright. Does`nt it violate your integrity or your stand of the principle that you propose??????

Re: # 344
You dont know anything and let us not discuss these matters.

for your P.S., how do you know who is enjoying whose fruits?
FYI,I have come to UK on the invitation of their Department of Health, as a consultant and Indian Govt. had no objection to it.I am free to go back or stay (whatever suits me).

And further, communism is not something which can be defeated.What happened in USSR is not defeat of communism.There are other factors responsible for that-it is not failure of the ideology.I will give you an anology for that...the whole world laughs at jokes on sikhs,does that mean sikhism is laughable?

It is always better not to talk about things/phenomena you dont know.
``Neem Haqeem Khatra-e-jaan`` you must have heard this idiom.
Take care.

Re: # 341
DM, I disagree that the Gurus followed the pricniple of caste in choosing their successors.

Guru Nanak did not let his sons become the Guru but his capable Chela to become a Guru, He chose another one of his Chela(Guru Amardas), who chose another of his Chela(Guru Ramdas and married his daughter to him).
Bedi--> Trehan --> Bhalla --> Sodhi(4th to 10th Guru).

Yes they were all Khatrees, because at that time, majority of the people who became Sikhs were the Khatris. How can Guru be casteist, when he is himself attacking the caste system(at multiple places)??
One family stayed as Gurus from 4th to 10th succession, there are mythological stories about it, (Bibi Bhanni and Guru Amardas) etc. But I think you don`t believe in them.
Also, When Guru Gobind Singh initiated Khalsa, he made Panj as the Guru and took Amrit from them. That was a democratic instituion also Punjabi`s love for number five.
There was a Jutt, Khatree, shudra, vaish and brahmin in the Panj(final authority).

Re: # 333

Drlokraji,
I do agree with you on your views about casteism, I have a family that is mixed caste and mixed religion. Cultural or fair weather Sikhs do believe in caste and sadly they are in majority. A visit to Punjab will reveal that to an observer in few days, withount sounding like defending Sikh`s Caste structure; This casteism is more dominant at the time of marriages or on other big social events. Otherwise Jutt, Khatris, Ramgaria and Mazbis(Muslims who became Sikhs and lower caste Hindus) do interact with each other, unlike their Hindu counterparts in UP or Bihar.
Regardless, Casteism is an evil for Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims alike, there is no room for it in any society, anywhere.

I have observed that during last 4-5 years, especially in Sikh diaspora outside of India, a big mass awakening for the true mesage of the Gurus have sprouted. These neophytes are neither Khalistanis nor Hinduphones. They are Generation-K in the West and their motivation is to live the life of a Sikh and feel proud about it. I do have many such aquanitances, there are a large number of Westerners also who have become Sikhs that I know of. These new Sikhs are not necessarily Punjabis but Amercian or Canadians or English first with clear cut, well defined Sikh values. In some cases I have seen parents smoking cigarettes and kids wearing Kirpans. Sounds strange but is true.

Udham Karo, Wand Chako, Kirat Karo:
Three basic values that were fulcrum to our grand parents generations, used to define our personalities and now a days we don`t see them.

Many Sikhs complain about mismanagement of Gurudwaras, Casteism, and many other social evils to discredit Sikhs to justify their lack of Sikhi or disconnection to not only Religion but Cultural aspects of Sikhi.
In my opinion, it is cowardice and balloney.

You defended the rights of communists and Punjabiyat with vigor, why????
In my opinion you have passion for them, but not for Sikhs. It is an escape hatch emotionaly speaking. You should know more about this being a Physcologist.

I have decided that if I see something wrong anywhere and if it s bothering me then I will make a stand against it, be it Casteism in the Gurudwaras, be it the mis treatment of a Hijab wearing Muslim woman at the airport or a fellow Hindu being discrimated at work place.

Equality for all, by all.

Re: # 338
the three pillars were-kirat karo,wand chhako & naam japo

Re: # 338
This is not true that I dont have passion for sikhism.I am frustrated by the sikh clergy-politician nexus.They are in no way different than fundoo mullahs or VHP.probably that is why Badal has to make coalition govt even if he wins majority on his own and the jathedars keep on issuing hukamnamas on ridiculous matters or if someone tries to tell them something sensible.
And SGPC..?? the little said the better.
Morcha against mahant seva dass(of nanakana sahib),guru ke bagh da morcha,jaito da morcha,kunjiyaN da morcha..gone are those days and those people.I made so many people read Sohan Singh Josh,s book,``Akaali morcheyaN da ithaas``.Most of the people who established SGPC in1920 and susequently Akali Dal,left the movement as it went in the hands of big landlords and joined kirti-kissan party which became communist party later.
I feel,the message of Gurus has been killed by putting it into narrow confines of religeon and the useless pot-bellied fellows sitting in the gurudwaras and flourishing on people`s hard earned money are dictating us and interpretting Guru`s words in their own ways.We have developed more rituals than gurus had told us to leave.

Just wanted to share a poem which I had written in 1991

hun asiN tuhathoN jawab nahiN mangday
bayshuq tusiN baRi koshish keeti
sawaal hi banay rehn di
kaday tusiN neela taara ban kay
saaday akaash tay chhaye
kaday tusiN saadi dharti vich
itihaas chhupaun layi
thaaN thaaN tay toay puttay...
duaa layi uthay saaday hathaaN tay
barood chhiRkeya
sarbat da bhalaa mangan waleyaaN day galaaN vich
balday tayeraN di maala payi

tussaN mausmaaN naal saajbaaj keeti
tay har haamla rutt da hamal giraya
tussiN saday khetaaN nu banjar bana ditta
par gharaaN diyaaN vehReyaN vich
jangli fullaN nu uggnoN kaun rokda
assiN tajurbay choN sikh liya hai
ke tuhaaday geometry diyaaN
saariyaaN rekhaaNwan kathiyaN ho kay vi
manukhi jazbeyaN nu
manmarzi da akaar nahiN day sakdiyaN

assiN haadseyaN sang jeena sikh liya hai
tay saanu har taraN day shor choN
sanget chhanan di jaach aa gayi hai
par tussiN
unhaaN geetaN da ki karogay
jehRay tuhaaday shaastri sangeet diyaN
haddaN andar nahiN auNday

hun assiN nahiN
tussiN baybas ho

HP#335:

Sorry, there has been some confusion. I had posted an excerpt from The Dawn of May 14 in response to your post#310 to Netizen where you had stated that there was no tension between Hindus and Muslims in Sindh. The following excerpt that I posted, and for which I asked your opinion, seemed to suggest that communal tensions in Sindh started long before in Punjab where they did not start until 1947. Somehow, this post disappeared in the cyberspace and never appeared here. So, I am posting it again.


``Visionary leader of Sindh

By Javed Qazi


Today marks the death anniversary of Allah Bux Soomro, who was assassinated in 1943.

IN THE political history of Sindh, May 14, 1943 will be remembered as a day of great loss. On that day, Allah Bux Soomro, the visionary leader, was murdered in Shikarpur at the age of 44.

It is not clear why he was killed but it is generally believed that elements hostile to Sindh’s centuries’ old tradition of peace among different faiths and creeds were responsible.

Allah Bux Soomro was chief minister when communal riots broke out in Shikarpur. He intervened to stop the trouble. Extremist forces had gathered in Sukkur on the Masjid Manzil Gah issue. Braving all odds, Mr Soomro delivered a moving speech, appealing to the people to remain calm. He assured the Muslims of the right to pray at Masjid Manzil Gah and at the same time assured the Hindus of safe access to Sadh Belo, the way to which passed close to the mosque. Opportunists had stirred up feelings against Hindu traders and the unrest was used to grab Hindu properties. The incident was exploited by Mr Soomro’s political rivals, and he lost the support of the Hindu members. As a consequence, his government was brought down.``