Amrita Pritam

dost mittar #24 The attack on the golden temple may or may not have been unnecessary. But it certainly seems to have been effective in eliminating the key leaders of the sikh rebellion in one fell swoop. Putting himself and his top lieutenants openly in one easily attacked spot (the golden temple) on the theory that the government would be unwilling to enter a religious shrine was a dumb move on the part of Bhindrawale. Probably came up with this brilliant idea at 12 noon.

Re: # 205
Tahmed,
Your sarcasm is duly noted about 12 noon comment.
FYI, Bhindrawala had no intention of winning this battle. It was very-very clear to them that they would loose the battle with the Military. It was intended to offer their sacrifice so that masses could be united against the Military. He had Gen Shahbeg Singh as his right hand man as a Military advisor, same guy who was very successful on creating Mukti Bahini and defeating Pakistani Army. Shahbeg is the same person, under whose command were kept 93,050 prisoners in JabalPur, MP for 3-4 yrs, including a famous Amir Amanullah Khan Niazi. Shahbeg Singh was also a direct descendent of a Sikh, who killed the famour Muslim Governor of Punjab more than 200 yr ago, who had covered the tank with Dead carcasses and had Prostitutes dance in the Golden Temple(this is all history I am not making this up).

Re: # 205
Tahmed,Bhindrawala was never considered their leader by sikhs.More than anything,he was to congress what Osama was/is to America.
He was projected as leader by Giani Zail Singh with a double fold purpose-

1. to spoil the Kapuri morcha,which was started jointly by akalis and communists to prevent the construction of Satluj Yamuna Link canal.This movement was one of the best mass movements ever seen in Punjab...there were more arrests than the places in prison in punjab.I remember,the govt converted some old unused forts into prisons.Both Punjab and Centre govts. were shaken.Bhindrawala announced ``dharamyudh``at the same time to divert attention of people and announced march from damdami taksal to Golden temple.

2.Giani Zail Singh had old scores to settle with his old rival within congress,Darbara Singh who was CM of punjab at that time.By proving him to be incompetent CM,he was dreaming to be CM again.
Before this people even did not know about Bhindrawala,who was made hero by the central govt. and later killed when their purpose was solved.The huge mas movement got lost somewhere as akalis were made redundant and terrorists started killing hindus thus creating a temporary divide.By killing lot of popular leaders,most of whom were communists,known to people as fearless leaders,they were able to instill terror in people`s minds and on the other hand,state showed its own ``power``by eliminating the terrorists and even not refraining from demolishing the golden temple.
Bhindrawala and his associates were confident that state will never attack a religeous place and if they do that,there will be civil war.Yes people were pained,agitated,anguished,but for them Bhindrwala was equal participant in the crime.

Diverse:

- ``Ram Raj`` has no religious connotations; I am sure our friend echoboom knows that if no one else does. It`s a figure of speech for an ideal government, just like Adl-e-Jehangir or Solomon`s justice without any religious meaning. There is no sharia or civil/criminal code attached to it. It`s a shame if Muslims who lived in this country did not know even this much about the language/culture of the land in which they lived; it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves.

- There was blame to be shared by everyone in the Harmandar Saheb episode.
- Indira Gandhi and Zail Singh for supporting Bhindranwale and not arresting him when he openly challenged the government to arrest him before he had enconsed himself in the Gurudwara.
- the Akalis and SGPC leadership for doing nothing when he was using the Gurudwara to run a parallel government in Punjab; especially when the two opposing groups - Bhindranwale and Anand Kirtani Jatha - were defiling the Golden Temple by fighting and killing each other while camped in the Gurudwara and when Bhindrawale had the woman leader of the Anand Kirtani Jatha cut into several pieces and when the killers of DIG Atwal ran into the Gurudwara after killing him outside the Gurudwara after he visited the Gurudwara.
- Chief Minister Darbara Singh, for not pursuing the killers of Atwal into the Gurudwara, when all Punjabis, including the Sikhs were outraged by his murder. The Sikh police, ordered by a Sikh Chief Minister to enter the Gurudwara in hot pursuit for the killer of a senior Sikh officer would have had an entirely different optics and much less offensive than the army attack.
- And finally, Indira Gandhi for the army attack on the Golden Temple, which was quite unnecessary, as proved by her own son two years later.

echoboom:

You are wrong. There are more Hindus on this board than either Sikhs or Muslims.

Re: # 204
``...There is no sharia or civil/criminal code attached to it. It`s a shame if Muslims who lived in this country did not know even this much about the language/culture of the land in which they lived; it is a greater shame if they hated the word Ram so much that the very mention of this name was enough to demand a separate country for themselves.....``

But the converse is also true! I know many hindus who would believe that Islam`s greatest stereo-types are Aurangzeb or OBL. And many of them seriously think that anything called Ram Rajya can exist today. This is probably because various hindu leaders have tried to project the bogey of RAm Rajya as a serious alternative to a semitic theocracy when it is infact not even a paper tiger.........had this been done by the hindus then such an act would enable the liberal muslims to expose those mullahs who project the paper tiger called ram rajya as an attack on the faith of the muslims and their right to practice their religion.............

echoboom

How do you feel about the genocidal rape and slaughter of Bengalis by the soldiers of your people in 1971? Lowest estimate is one million dead, remember.

Echoboom #179:

``Very Very frank & informative discussion here. How come that there is no input from Panjabi-Hindus on this matter. Do they distance themselves from a ``panjab`` holocaust where Sikhs are concerned?``

Echo, I am a Punjabi Hindu from East Punjab. No I do not distance myself from Sikh holocaust. I lost a poor Sikh relative in the Delhi riots and a Hindu relative who was paralyzed for life due to a Khalistani bullet in his back. The Khalistan movement started in 1944 and it is a long story to 1984. I have never laughed at Kaura Sach, who has a true knack for speaking his mind without sugarcoating his opinion. I have the utmost sympathy for Dilliwala, who was assaulted and damaged for life by Hindu rioters.

I did learn Punjabi in Gurmukhi script for matriculation, but while teaching Engineering, I did my Giani from Punjabi University. My inspiration was Master Tara Singh`s speeches and and a desire to write textbooks in Punjabi.

Gandhi in a way was indirectly responsible for Sikh murders in 1984 because he set up a precedent by submitting to emotional blackmail im 1946 by Jinnah. Once you sleep with the devil, you are sure to get Rosemary`s baby. If TNT is good for Muslims, why not for the Sikhs or Jainis, Shias, Ahmadis, Namdharis and on and on. Broken down to the core, Echo can live happily in a nation of Echo clones only. Even urstruly or Dino is a poor substitute.

What else would you like to know?

Re # 191

I know what you are saying. But it is very frustrating at the shallow and silly thinking
of some of the interactors who are so hung on painting Gandhiji as a Hindu communal
just for airing the concept of Ram Raj, completely oblivious of the noble concept of Ram Raj
which transends all religious boundaries and connotations.

re:#149 by echoboom
The sikh movement is long dead though you may find some sympathisers for the Khalistan cause in Canada and California.
India has a Sikh PM and a Sikh Army Chief. That is a statement enough that things are back to normal.
BTW, i listen daily to Gurbani. I find it very soothing in the morning along with a cup of coffee before hitting the road for work. When not listening to Gurbani, i listen to the lilting voice of M.S. Subbuluxmi singing praise of Vishnu in ``Vishnu Sahasranamam``.
Go and figure why a south indian who now resides in US and is a proud US citizen should be interested in Gurbani.
Sridhar

Re: # 197

``India has a Sikh PM and a Sikh Army Chief. That is a statement enough that things are back to normal. ``

It is common to see Sikhs in senior gov. positions. A couple of times when Maharashtra gov. wanted an honest, apolitical cop to lead mumbai Sikhs have been appointed as commissioners (Samra after riots and recently Pasricha). Some more ex. of Sikhs who have lead various gov. agencies in recent times, ex-CBI chief Joginder, ex-CEC M.M. Gill, ex-BSF chief (I don`t remember his name, Gursharan (?)), the ex-senior air force officer who was asked to resign for asking political favor. ..( he could have become air chief)......

187,

YOU - obviously.

Do you even know the meaning of Khalsa? Do you know the purpose of Amrit and 5 Ks? The wearing of kirpan? etc.

I am talking about what they were supposed to be, not what the khusrasikhs of today made it to be.

Re: # 189
Saaliya Evve Buk-Buk na karya kar, Tu jaunda vi hi ke main kaun hai?

You come on this website and I have seen your signature elsewhere also, just for contradicting everything not making any sense anywhere, anytime.

All you can think of is pasting picture of an Arya Samaji fondling an actress who is pretending as a Khalsa to turn yourself on. Is that your Zenith or peak? Your ingenuity is based on pasting pictures that trash everyone except you. All Chowkies laugh at you for your lack of consistency. I am not even sure who you are or what your background is; but I can see through your posts. Decency is not your make and you take pride in that also?

Should I go around waving my Siri Sahib and kill people who are not like myself or of not my religion. Many Pakistanis respect me for who I am. You wrote terrible words about descendents of Bhai Mardana, you are not a Sikh. If you were you could write such like things.

If you ever want to talk with me then show some etiquettes or else good bye.

echo, you think there is a fire so you can heat-up your stale rotis?

181,

stop clapping like a hijra.

Re: # 184
Who is this for?

Re # 159

``When Gandhi started going on about Ram Raj some Muslims started worrying about the Hindus too.``

What was about Ram Raj that caused Muslims to worry? The name or the concept or both?
If it was name, suppose Gandhiji had called it, ``Ideal Raj`` or ``Khilafat Raj`` or ``Allah Raj`` or ``Buddha Raj`` would Muslims have started worrying also?
If it is the concept, what part of that concept caused Muslims to worry?
Did Muslim reason or request or warn Gandhiji to stop calling it Ram Raj stating their concerns or their was no turning back the moment Gandhiji uttered those words, ``Ram Raj``?