Amrita Pritam

Re: # 318
Guru Nanak was Bedi
Guru Angad was Khatri(DM saab please add here).
Guru AmarDas was a Bhalla
Guru Ramdas and the rest of Sikh Gurus were all Sodhis.

Re: # 310

one of my sindhi friend is from Larkana. He is very proud of his home land. He says that his grandfather was a landlord along with Bhuttos family. He always tells me that there was no enimity b/t the common man only politicians created it, which I have hard to digest.
What do you say about Jhulle Lal? I read something that hindus and muslims, both claimed him. Also Lal Dad (?)

#304 Netizen

Both Sindhi Hindu and Muslims are of Sufi thought. You will never find a Sindhi Hindu or Muslim disparaging each other’s religion even in privacy. The saints, pir or religious figures whether they were Hindu, Sikh or Muslims were and still are respected by Sindhis.
Sachal Surmast a Saint or a pir or sufi whatever you want to call him still has thousands of Sindhi Hindu visitors from India. Pir Sahib Jhok Sharif a Muslim had majority Hindu following. You will not find any distinction in his followers.
I know about Sindhi Hindus and their reverence to Guru Nanak. It has been a long time that Sindhi Hindu left Sindh but I doubt that they will change their basic beliefs because they don’t live in Sindh any more.
I met lots of Sindhi Hindu in New York and some of them can’t even speak Sindhi anymore but their respect and love for Sindh has not diminished.
I think you need to search for Sindh on GOOGLE to know more about Sindhi Hindu- Muslim relations before the partition. Sometime history is cruel, but you will not find a single Sindhi Muslim who would not regret Hindu departure from Sindh.

#303 by delhiwala on May 20, 2005 2:27pm PT
Re: # 291
Drlokraji,
Problem started when Hindus started asserting that Sikhs are Hindus in North India, because at that time Hindus realized that Sikhs are not needed anymore or are less effective or both. British played a role in saving the Sikh identity by ensuring all Soldiers to be Amritdhari. During these times, due to lack of direction Sikhs were loosing their values, Dayal Singh s/o Ranjit`s famous General became a Dev-Samaji and many more.
(Sunny Deol would`nt be an Arya Samaji but for this time in history).

It is not that there is anything wrong in someone adopting any religion but when others attack you to become like them, it becomes a basic revolt in Sikhs, Equality for All by All.
Arya Samaj was attacking Sikhs in 1800s, confronting Sikhs on the streets and engaging them in arguments, if they did not answer back then they were forced to shed Sikhi. I was told by my elder that she had heard from her father that in Lahore in 1890s, Arya Samajis enagaged in dialogues a Carpenter(Tarkhan) wheather he knew Sukhmani Sahib or not.
Obviously, this guy had never read it, he was convinced based on these silly logics to become a Arya Samaji.

Kahn Singh`s book was a reposnse to Arya Samaji movement, please read the Arya Samaj`s founder`s words about Guru Nanak
``Idhar Udhar se JorR ke Chalaya hai Panth``.
``Pehle Safa Rukh liya pher chele Kar Liye``

Even Aurengzeb did not write so negatively about Guru Nanak as Arya Samajis did. What do you expect Sikhs to do, cut their hair and become Arya Samajis and join Hindus after doing Shudhi and wearing Janoyes?????
You are only paying attention to a subset of time, not the whole picture.
Singh Sabha movement was started when Arya Smaajis have started churning the poisson in Punjab against the Sikhs.

I also have Hindu and Sikh relatives in my own family but your assesment is totally wrong about Kahn Singh`s book.
I feel your pain at the violence in 80ies and killing of communists and other innocents and I am totally against the innocent Hindus and Sikhs being killed in Punjab in 80ies, even though I almost lost my own life twice. But please do not undermine the Sikh`s entity in your posts.

Guru Tegbahadur, certainly was a representative of the Kashmiri Brahmins, though he was himself against the philosophy of Manu Smirities.

Would you call Christ as a Jew and Christians as Jews?
or for that matter, Hindus as Adivasis, who lived in India prior to Aryan invasion?

Sindhis,
I had never known many Sindhis in India except some who did have Akhand Path for theeir main events.

However, when I came to USA, I realized how many Sindhis go to Gurudwaras.
Geln rock Gurudwara in NJ and other Gurudwaras in LI have considerable amount of dedicated Sindhis. I was humbled few weeks ago by a Sindhi Doctor, when he sang Shabads sitting next to while his wife did the Langar.

#306
Sorry, I meant starting with 1870s, not 1970s.

Drlokraj#291:

This is a highly controversial subject where rigours of scholarship take a back seat to questions of politics and identity. Here is my take. The Sikh identity has been changing gradually since the Singh Sabha and Tat Khalsa movements, starting with 1970s. Before that, several sikh identities coexisted, just as they coexist among Hindus today: there were Udasin, followers of Guru Nanak`s sons, followers of Sodhis, Namdharis, Sehajdharis, Khalsa, etc. The dominant faction at that time were the Sanatanists. They found the roots of Sikh religion in the Sanatan traditions and believed the Gurus to be the avatars of Ram and Krishan. The Tat Khalsa led a revolt against this with the book by Bhai Kahn Singh`s mentioned by you, a significant goalpost. They also developed distinct Sikh rituals for births, marraiges, deaths, etc. Their most permanent secular contribution was to abandon Urdu in favour of Gurmukhi; if they had not done so, Gurmukhi perhaps would not have enjoyed the pride of place it does today in Punjab.

Generally speaking, religious identities were less consolidated in Punjab not only among Sikhs but also among Hindus and Muslims until the end of the 19th century. People were nominally Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs but they were more attached to a village deity, peer, jogi, etc. (remember how Ranjha was a chela of guru Gorakh Nath?). One of the most popular ones throughout Punjab was a Muslim saint called Sakhi Sarvar.

HP:
I read news less than I read views. Dawn alone has about 6-7 opinion pieces every day, in addition to the regular editorials and columns by Mazdak, Ayaz Amir and Cowasji. They also have The Review and Magazine. There is a piece relating to religion/history every other day if not daily.

delhiwala:
India has not named any new streets after Aurangzeb or Sultans (Akbar, maybe). The streets you refer to all old streets named before the Partition. You can only give Indians credit for not changing names. There are, however, several new streets, developments and institutions named after modern Indian Muslims, such as Shaukat Ali, Ajmal Khan, Asaf Ali, Maulana Azad, Kidwai or Zakir Hussain.

302,

Dada Chela Ram established a Sindhi sikh ASHRAM in Bombay, Delhi and Saprron (Solan, HP).

Their sikhi is limmited to belief in Nanak and Guru Granth Sahib. They lack other practices of sikhs. And openly declare that the ASHRAM is NOT a Gurudwara. They worship the Granth like an idol with an Arti fire.

Many NanakPanthis (Sindhi followers of Nanak) still reside in Sindh - they live in bad conditions.....and are getting baptized into sikhism to escape persecution at the hands of muslims.

Re: # 305

hmm..
Is it that following Guru Nanak is a Khatri thing whereas Khalsa is more of Jat phenomenon, Guru Gobind himself being a jat?

Netizen

Most Punjabis growing up in Pakistan now have not seen a Sikh in their lives (barring Indian movies). They heard stories about them but they have no idea about the cultural similarities or even about Sikh religion.
This is almost the third generation after the partition and it does not seem like that they will need to learn about Sikh religion in the next few generations either.
Tahmed or I can learn about Sikh religion on our own but the social contact is not there for us to pick up mundane info about Sikh religion or Sikhs generally etc.
So, it is not at all necessary for a Pakistani Punjabi to know about Sikhs.

I thank guys for the info that I gleaned thru this thread but honestly, on my own I may not have tried. Tahmed, at least Googled for it and people should respect that.

#300 ``who know thru elders or books, feign ignorance.``

Again it is your assumption. How many people really care about history? I have read about the Sikh rule but as part of Indian history nothing more nothing less.

Re: # 301

``Most Punjabis growing up in Pakistan now have not seen a Sikh in their lives (barring Indian movies). They heard stories about them but they have no idea about the cultural similarities or even about Sikh religion.
This is almost the third generation after the partition and it does not seem like that they will need to learn about Sikh religion in the next few generations either. ``

so what about the other religions like hindus, jains, buddhists, jews and christians. As non-muslims are decreasing as % I guess there is a less chance of knowing others.

Re: # 301

thanks for the info. do you know that hindu sindhis revere Guru Nanak. My sindhi friends pray to Guru Nanak as they would to other hindu gods. Infact while watching there wedding ceremony I realised that they do go to Sikh Gurudwaras to tie the knot in presence of the living guru, Granth Sahib. At my college the prinicipal, a Sindhi hindu had a portrait of Guru Nanak in his office.

If Tahmed was born before partition, he should know about sikhs. It is surprising that his parents talked about the old village but not sikhs.

Most Pakis are not taught about the ``glorious chapter`` of sikh rule - those who know thru elders or books, feign ignorance.

I don`t know what caused Tahmeed`s amnesia.

#279 by dost-mittar

“I have been scanning Pakistani news media for almost ten years and I have not read a single article which says that Aurangzeb was not a true Muslim.”

Did you find any article that said Dara Shikoh WAS NOT a true Muslim?
How subjective you guys can be?
Newspapers don’t carry Historic records, they carry news. Like Newspapers in India, Pakistani newspapers have their own agenda and no single Paper has exclusive control over Pakistan domain. They write and publish what fits their policies.
You obviously lack the sophistication like many Indians on this site to even understand what political thoughts newspapers represent and where they are coming from.
It is so funny reading that Indians are learning about Pakistan from reading English or even Urdu Newspapers. It is okay to quote newspaper for news, quoting newspapers for evidence in historical issue is sheer stupidity.

#295 by jang
#294 by Netizen

Why is it necessary or everybody to know about Sikhism? I don’t know a whole lot, neither do I care (don’t mean to offend anybody here). People get info when they need them. Do you guys know every thing about Baloch or Sindhi?
Sikh and Hindu live in India, and Indian should know about each other. why a Pakistani should worry about that in Pakistan or even in the USA.

You guys are just hilarious!

Re: # 296

HP,

sikhs represent ~20 % of punjabi culture and were/are a significant part of its tradition and history. Isn`t Ranjit Singh the only Punjabi kingdom in punju history with Lahore as its capital. Even some punju pakis admitted that it was a glorious chapter in punjabi history. Some punju pakis were talking about a Punjabi nation comprising all punjus. In light of all these I was amazed. and yes tahmed is an all-arounder hence i was stumped.
With regard to sindhis I do know about them, i graduated from a college managed by Sindh Collegiate Board, Hyderabad. After partition they set up colleges in ulhasnagar later in mumbai. I have sindhi freinds with whom i studied. So I do know about sindhis. about Balochis no. Never met one. But that doesn`t correspond to tahmed ignorance about basic Sikh tenets. You can be excused if you don`t know you are not punju. But a punjabi, that too tahmed. Toaba toaba.