Amrita Pritam

Beautiful poem, excellently translated. Thank you! :-)

i am sorry for her death and her poem.....moved me to tears.....very powerfull indeed!
Ammara

delhiwalla#363

I agree that our gurus do not have the same place as Prophet Mohammed has for Muslims. All I am saying is let us keep it this way and make a distintion between criticism and insult.

#362 by delhiwala on May 23, 2005 7:53pm PT

DW, I have no issue with the fact that the followers of any religion/leader need to use their own brains to deal with their problems as they occur.

My only point in terms of lot to be done was for example – we have really not made a serious attempt to propagate the great teachings like Christians or Muslims have done. As DrLokraj pointed out, we did not want to bring in Dalits to the fold. The result is that our religion is seen as just a Punjabi religion. People are unaware that it’s universal religion that combines best of the known religions at the time. You see, in the long run our small number (relative to other major religions) will hurt us.

Many of our folks are also hesitant or outright hostile to accept sahjdharis in the leadership (even in the local gurudwaras). I know it’s a touchy subject even within each family. However, it has to be faced sooner or later or our next generations will gradually move away from the fold.

Our issues are not unique and almost every faith faces similar challenges. The ones that will survive and grow will be the ones which are able to adapt to the changing realities.

You will have the last word on this.

Thanks.

#355
Dm Saab,
you cannot compare treatment that Muslims give to Prophet and what Sikh`s give to Their Gurus.
there is no mention of the Guru`s personal lives in any Sikh Scriptures.
Gurus call themselves humbly as low of the lowly.

DM ji
Satpal Daang and his wife Vimla Daang are still very much respected couple not only in Amritsar but all over Punjab.
You are right about the directions.That has been one of the main reasons for the mess in which the communist movement is today in India.

pardesi
I agree with you.Our sikh leadership still doesnot consider it a point worth considering.

Re: # 357

Is there any communist influence anymore in Punjab/Haryana? Maybe the Akalis are teaming up with BJP becuase there is a good chance of winning with them rather than with the Commies.

Re: # 358
Akalis` base is in rural punjab.They team up with BJP to get urban hindu votes.
This actually brings down their credibility because BJP opposes all the major demands of Punjab like transfer of Chandigarh and other punjabi speaking areas to Punjab,distribution of river water according to riparion principle etc.
Akalis-BJP alliance ruled centre as well as punjab for five years but akalis never raised these issues during that tenure.

Re: # 360

how are communist doing in Punjab/haryana? I think communist parties have survived only in Bengal and Kerala.

#355 dost-mittar

”But let us not make the same mistake that the Muslims have made, which is to issue fatwas of death against anyone who dares to differ with the claim of their prophet`s flawlessness”

Agreed.

As I said, the gurus were not prophets/agents of God or avatars of any kind. They were humans and their actions have to be analyzed and/or criticized in the context of time and prevailing societal attitudes. They were more like social reformers and leaders on a mission to uplift our miserable ancestors. In fact each succeeding guru made their own decisions per needs of the time. God knows, we still have lot left to be done even after all the work done by Gandhi, Gokhle, Raja Ram Mohan Roy and many others subsequent to the Sikh gurus for that land.

Muslim fundos consider the prophet to be God’s exclusive and final messenger, and their holy books are supposed to have prescription for all social, political and economic needs. I do not believe any Sikh has ever claimed that he looks for answers in Guru Granth Sahib for administartion of interest rates. It will be a real tragedy, as you said, if Sikhs regress like others on this issue.

Re: # 356
Pardesi: Reform was one aspect of the Gurus. Your point that there is still lot more to done does not connect.
Guru`s or for that matter any other holy person cannot take guarantee of what people will do in future. Guru`s mission as I see it was not to fix the mankind forever, everywhere. But to give a philosophy and structure that will fit in all the times as a path, whoever wants to follow it.

Gandhi, Gokhle were also great people and politicans with a message of social welfare and obliterating inequalities.

It is not clear to me what your point is?

Pardesi#354:

I am in full agreement with your post to both me and dlr. I am a great admirer of the gurus and their tremendous achievements. But let us not make the same mistake that the Muslims have made, which is to issue fatwas of death against anyone who dares to differ with the claim of their prophet`s flawlessness.

dlr:
I would have agreed with you except for one thing. Until the 1970s, the biggest beneficaries of Indian capiatlists` support was the Congress party, and the CPI had consistently supported it upon Moscow`s order. CP(M) didn`t because it danced to Mao` tunes.

BTW I think that the most respected Punjabi communist leader was nominally a Hindu, Sat Pal Daang. He always won his legislative seat from a predominantly Sikh riding.

DM, DW

The Gurus’ actions (Casteism?) 300-400 years back have to be seen in the context of the prevalent Hindu societal attitudes at the times. Equality for women, and castes, was a revolutionary concept at the time. Gandhi on the other hand, had exposure to the western world and his strategy as we all know was to win the hearts of western liberals in order to improve Indian lot as well as to win independence. All kudos to Gandhiji also

Lots of blacks have complained that Jefferson was a slave owner and therefore his proclamation of liberty and justice for all was hypocritical. But again, it has to be seen in light of the times. No one can deny that blacks and women are far better of in USA than many other places due to those ideals.

Upliftment of lower castes is an uphill battle in Indian society and Sikh gurus have made tremendous contribution to it along with many others who contributed subsequently.

Marriages were arranged within the families you knew. It was truer then as it now. Can you imagine the furor the upper castes would have caused if a Guru had married his children in lower castes and then asked people to fight against oppression and lay down their lives for other causes they were espousing? It would have been suicidal from exerting leadership role point of view. Gurus were humans and not God or God’s designated agents/prophets. They lived in the real world and perhaps knew the limitations of the times.

Hindu culture/society (our ancestors) were in deep dodo in all aspects at the time (subservient to invaders, history of “sub chalta hai – Vo din nahin rahe, ye din be nikal jayenge, caste system, idol worshiping, women status) and I am amazed at how these Gurus kept the pilot light on facing brutal challenges from the Muslim rulers, selfish Hindu Rajas and the religious watchdogs of Hindu orthodoxy.

It was fine and dandy to become reformers after British became the unchallenged rulers (1850 or so). Every one (including arya samajees) and his uncle started seeing the light in terms of democratic concepts, casteless society, no Sati pratha and don’t take shxt from any one. However, it took HUGE set of balls on part of Gurus to stand for these things in 1600-1700 timeframe and I hope people give them credit for that.

DrLR:

I fully agree that Sikh leaders were totally myopic, stupid and against the tenets of Sikhism in not embracing Ambedkar and his people. That would have made Sikhism (with turban or without it) a mainstream religion rather than a boutique religion. The sooner these narrow minded idiots understand that the better they can save the principles that are worth preserving. In this new world you need numbers/votes and Dalits joining Sikhism would have not only given Dalits manliness to organize, fight and root out their oppressors in order to gain their god given rights, but would have also enriched Sikhism.

drlokraj:

``Communists have always supported akalis in punjab during various mass movements except when they associate themselves with BJP or Jansangh in the past.``

This is where truly secular people have problems with communists and fellow travellers. They admire them for their steadfast opposition to hindu commualists but see it hypocritical of them to support parties like Akalis in Punjab or Indian Muslim League in Kerala. BJP is secular at least on paper. Akalis, on the other hand, openly claim to be a party of the sikhs and for the sikhs - I think that it is only recent that they have even opened their membership to non-sikhs. All their demands have been in the name of qaum and panth. They have done great harm to the cause of Punjab by associating it with the Sikh cause: the Anandpur Saheb resolution was good not only for Punjab but also for all of India; but by making it a panthic demand and issuing it from a place of religious significance, they made it difficult for non-sikhs to support it.

Re: # 352

``This is where truly secular people have problems with communists and fellow travellers. They admire them for their steadfast opposition to hindu commualists but see it hypocritical of them to support parties like Akalis in Punjab or Indian Muslim League in Kerala.``

Indian commie movement is not based on their own ideology. They were/are the servants of Moscow (until the fall of soviets) and now china. These delusioned people think that they are the only truly ``peoples`` movement left now as Chinas itself is moving towards free market.
These bunch of hypocrites thrive on poverty/injustice in society but themselves have no answer for them. As more sick units get divested, communists parties are just going to lose their mass base.
I remeber how several years back, the Nayanar gov in Kerala was trying to swallow money from hindu religious bodies but didn`t dare to touch masjids and churches. So much for egalitarianism.

Re: # 352
You are right about akalis and communists` support of their demands.Things are not the same now and there is widening gap between akalis and communists.There are several reasons for that.Historically it has been the opposition of congress which was seen as sole representatve of Indian Capitalist class and the common mass base of akalis and communists i.e. farmers.Emergence of BJP has made things more complicated.Akalis were communists` favoured allies because of their closeness since pre 47 years also and also personal closeness of many top leaders.Larger than life image of HKS Surjeet also had lot to do,because of which lot of top ranking leasers from Punjab who were mainly trade unionists (Jagjit Singh Layallpuri and more recently Mangat Ram Pasla and Chander Shekhar)driftd away from CPM.
More powers to states has been demanded by all regional parties and communists but akalis twisted it in Anandpur Sahib resolution by asserting that sikhs are a separate qaum(and they mean it nation here)and I don`t think communists can repeat same mistake twice.Apart from that they support the resolution.

Re: # 346
You are getting upset, did something bother you? My intentions are not to poke-provoke your personal choices. I am assuming that you are upset over ``your living in UK while being a Communist`` comment. I respect communists for their dedication and loyalty to their beliefs and discipline. For e.g. Basu had even refused to goto West for medical treatment on conflict of ideology reasons.

If I were you, I would explain my stand on that point itself with all reasoning and rationale, again assuming that this is a discussion and it is your prerogerative to answer something or ignore it.
A gentlemen would not take hurt in my comment and either politely refuse to answer with words such ``let us not share that or your totally wrong etc`` or not answer with attacks with reverse physchology.

Kaha Sunya muaff Karna Te
Jee Ayaa Nu!

Re: # 349
No hard feelings.The conversation got a bit off the track.We can discuss those issues on a different forum.
Regarding caste system and sikhism--DM`s example of Gandhi is pertinent though there is one difference,Gandhi always defended the Varna based structure of Hindu society and never wanted abolition of castes whereas gurus,especially Guru Gobind Singh ji,were more radical and the establishment of Khalsa panth was meant at that.But sadly,``amrit chhakna`` has become just a ritual now and lost its meaning.Ambedkar had decided to become sikh along with thousands of his followers and the stage was set for that when withdrew because of a comment made by a very senior sikh clergyman``kee hun akaal takhat tay aa kay chamaar chuhRay baithangay?``Ambedkar burnt hindu shastras publically and embraced Budhism.But his first choice was always Sikhism.Casteism led to the downfall of Hinduism and will do the same to Sikhism if appropriate steps are not taken.Relatively recent fight over a gurudwara near Jalandhar,which led to curfew in the village for several days, is example of that.
Communists have always supported akalis in punjab during various mass movements except when they associate themselves with BJP or Jansangh in the past.

delhiwala:

If Guru Gobind Singh could find punj pyaras from different castes, was it not possible for any of the gurus to arrange marriage with someone of another caste?

I believe that the gurus fought against the evils of the caste system, but there is a difference between fighting the evils of a system and fighting the system itself.

Gandhi lived among sweepers in the Bhangi colony. He performed the tasks of a sweeper, including cleaning toilets. Still, he can only be considered as a reformer of the system and not against the system itself.

Re: # 348
DM Uncle,
There is a thin line, I can see your point about what you are saying from one side of the river.
But the view from other bank of river Ottawa is; all of the Sikh Gurus emphatically spoke against Casteism, blind rituals and woman`s inequality. They integrated all the castes into one. It is hard for me to call them Casteist based on your point. We will never know why they did not marry outside their castes. Also an American Sikh woman once asked me why there was no woman Sikh Guru.

I don`t know the answer nor I intend to find it. This Panth is for me and I am sure for others there are different paths.

tahmed32:

Has conversion to Islam meant escape from caste system? Here is an excerpt from a news item from today`s dawn:

``In agriculture, bonded labour was most prevalent among sharecroppers in parts of Sindh and Punjab. In Punjab, it is found in a severe form among a category of permanent agricultural workers. In these cases, bonded labourers usually belonged to the lowest castes or were non-Muslims — a vulnerability reinforced by the fact that their homes were located on the landlord’s property. The threat of eviction ensured labour discipline.``

Please note that the news item distinguishes between non-muslims and those (obviously muslims) of lowest castes.

You do not have to worry about your ancestors being of low caste:-)

``Tahmad sahib, how old are you? So finally in year 2005..at the age of 13 you have googled and found the truth about something that was happening or is in your backyard?:-) ``

It`s not that amazing. All those years these desi mangoes were turned into coconuts, white inside. In 47 some of the coconuts argued that desi simple cutcha khatta green mangoes are actually alien kiwis ... green inside as well. After 60 years you find hairy kiwis in hyena land and coconuts feel they cannot sell them as coconuts in the west ... that is the real anguish of coccomuts

These folks call Shivaji as brigand, when they forget that after Shivaji`s death western Maharashtra`s eligible martial population (men of age 16-35) was probably less than Aurangzeb`s well equipped forces Aurangzeb camped in Maharashtra for 27 years These years were four years after Shivaji`s death. I guess this will not be in babarnama or MacaulayNama. In those namas one finds mostly a lie which needs lot of pages to substantiate or justify it. These hard nuts cannot get this simple truth. if the chiitta (seed of the manas) is white or green and enslaved then the intellectual analyses is futile. Such a chitta can never do the syntheses for common good. It will go on dividing the community.

Echo probably in his boom-boom mood made me and someone else an honorable enemy. He is not my or India`s enemy ... the enemy is within me and India...I also acquired the diffidence, ``cannot do`` and ``it’s not possible locally`` attitude. That is where Shivaji as a shining star guides the millions in becoming master of their own destiny, and not chase some holy ghost in a distant desert post. This hulla-gulla in the name of Alla is utter nuisance for Indians of 21st century. We know hulla in the name of Alla is for gulla, the collection at the end of the day. If one shits in the local Ganga and reveres distant zum-zum then naturally this “otherness” breeds hate among the locals. You may come up with lot of garbage such as Aryan Invasion Theory to make the local groundless. But we know there is no such thing as Aryan like Mayan. Arya means noble, does not mean race to most of us. Draupadi was as dark as Phulan Devi. While remodeling my home I came across this http://vastu2vaastu.com/ I guess we were taken for a very very long ride by MaxMueller and coconuts who followed him.

Our heroes are local Shivajis, Guru Govindsingh, CV Raman, Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Phule, Baba Amte, Narayan Murthy and thousands of Mahadba Mistries who create appropriate technologies and build the community India from ground up. Religion is a Semitic concept, alien to India. There are many panths or paths for ``real`` growth.

Few factoids: British accentuated and converted a Sikh panth into a religion Sikhism, so that they can use the siklh soldiers in 1857, to guard the charas and ganja post -Hongkong, Singapur. Ponder over this - why the Air India jumbo bombing accused in Canada are set free? Why Khalistan headquarters are in DupliCity and Hyena Land?

BTW Shivaji`s father, Shahaji was named after a local saint who was a Muslim by birth.

drlokraj:

Is this Sohan Singh Josh the same person who was a famous trade union leader in Kenya?

delhiwala, kaurasach:

The kaura sach is that even the gurus did not completely abandon caste. As far as I am aware, none of the ten gurus married their children outside their caste or themselves did so. And, of course, they never found anyone outside their caste to be a nominee for their gaddis. After the third guru, they even restricted the gaddi nominees to their own family even if they were minors.

Re: # 341
DM ji,he was one of the founders of SGPC,later joined Naujawan Bharat Sabha of Bhagat Singh and became its president.I am not sure whether he went to Kenya at any stage.
He was one of the foremost communist leaders of Punjab and was CPI,Punjab`s general secretary till his death before Avtar Singh Malhotra.

Re: # 343
I have heard of a Sohan Singh Josh also, maybe he added ``Josh`` to his name, in Kenya.

I was reading about the communists movements all over the world.
It seems that in 1920ies-50ies, it was fashionable for any educated person to think like communists. Proletriats, lal lehar, Mazdoor Union, Kisan Sabha, Samaji movements.
All these terms are biproducts during the time Soviet Sun was rising.
Also, the other alternative i.e. capitalist UK/USA and WEST was terrible in it`s policies of subjugations of those not like them.
Under the circumstances, any educated person would get excited by the stories of Lenin, Marx and some others. Even today, if anyone read literature by any Indian Communist, scoialist. It talks about the same. Once again, Indians did not have something of their own. They relied on semi-west(USSR, Spain) to give them a model of political party. No disrespect to them but clearly they could not see what Communism was breeding in USSR and Eastern block. How it was meant to steal power from one and hand it to another power, who is willing to sacrifice it`s millions for the sake of an idelogy that may or may not work.
I am neigther bourgeoise nor Bolshevik, but I did read lots of Russian books translated in Hindi(language that I am most proficient with) about this subject.
Kolkhojs, collective farming and it`s benefits..... but where does it end.

Why did communism fail? Howcome, it`s original propunders are it`s worst enemy now(Russians)??????

I am not just bashing commnunists because of what happened to them in Punjab, afterall it`s main leader was a Sikh till last month(HKS Surjit).

My inference:
Without any Dharam there is no Karam
Without any might you are not right

PS: Drlokraji, You are enjoying the fruits of a country that allied itself with an ally that called Communism as it`s worst enemy, and basically defeated it outright. Does`nt it violate your integrity or your stand of the principle that you propose??????

Re: # 344
You dont know anything and let us not discuss these matters.

for your P.S., how do you know who is enjoying whose fruits?
FYI,I have come to UK on the invitation of their Department of Health, as a consultant and Indian Govt. had no objection to it.I am free to go back or stay (whatever suits me).

And further, communism is not something which can be defeated.What happened in USSR is not defeat of communism.There are other factors responsible for that-it is not failure of the ideology.I will give you an anology for that...the whole world laughs at jokes on sikhs,does that mean sikhism is laughable?

It is always better not to talk about things/phenomena you dont know.
``Neem Haqeem Khatra-e-jaan`` you must have heard this idiom.
Take care.

Re: # 341
DM, I disagree that the Gurus followed the pricniple of caste in choosing their successors.

Guru Nanak did not let his sons become the Guru but his capable Chela to become a Guru, He chose another one of his Chela(Guru Amardas), who chose another of his Chela(Guru Ramdas and married his daughter to him).
Bedi--> Trehan --> Bhalla --> Sodhi(4th to 10th Guru).

Yes they were all Khatrees, because at that time, majority of the people who became Sikhs were the Khatris. How can Guru be casteist, when he is himself attacking the caste system(at multiple places)??
One family stayed as Gurus from 4th to 10th succession, there are mythological stories about it, (Bibi Bhanni and Guru Amardas) etc. But I think you don`t believe in them.
Also, When Guru Gobind Singh initiated Khalsa, he made Panj as the Guru and took Amrit from them. That was a democratic instituion also Punjabi`s love for number five.
There was a Jutt, Khatree, shudra, vaish and brahmin in the Panj(final authority).

Re: # 333

Drlokraji,
I do agree with you on your views about casteism, I have a family that is mixed caste and mixed religion. Cultural or fair weather Sikhs do believe in caste and sadly they are in majority. A visit to Punjab will reveal that to an observer in few days, withount sounding like defending Sikh`s Caste structure; This casteism is more dominant at the time of marriages or on other big social events. Otherwise Jutt, Khatris, Ramgaria and Mazbis(Muslims who became Sikhs and lower caste Hindus) do interact with each other, unlike their Hindu counterparts in UP or Bihar.
Regardless, Casteism is an evil for Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims alike, there is no room for it in any society, anywhere.

I have observed that during last 4-5 years, especially in Sikh diaspora outside of India, a big mass awakening for the true mesage of the Gurus have sprouted. These neophytes are neither Khalistanis nor Hinduphones. They are Generation-K in the West and their motivation is to live the life of a Sikh and feel proud about it. I do have many such aquanitances, there are a large number of Westerners also who have become Sikhs that I know of. These new Sikhs are not necessarily Punjabis but Amercian or Canadians or English first with clear cut, well defined Sikh values. In some cases I have seen parents smoking cigarettes and kids wearing Kirpans. Sounds strange but is true.

Udham Karo, Wand Chako, Kirat Karo:
Three basic values that were fulcrum to our grand parents generations, used to define our personalities and now a days we don`t see them.

Many Sikhs complain about mismanagement of Gurudwaras, Casteism, and many other social evils to discredit Sikhs to justify their lack of Sikhi or disconnection to not only Religion but Cultural aspects of Sikhi.
In my opinion, it is cowardice and balloney.

You defended the rights of communists and Punjabiyat with vigor, why????
In my opinion you have passion for them, but not for Sikhs. It is an escape hatch emotionaly speaking. You should know more about this being a Physcologist.

I have decided that if I see something wrong anywhere and if it s bothering me then I will make a stand against it, be it Casteism in the Gurudwaras, be it the mis treatment of a Hijab wearing Muslim woman at the airport or a fellow Hindu being discrimated at work place.

Equality for all, by all.

Re: # 338
the three pillars were-kirat karo,wand chhako & naam japo

Re: # 338
This is not true that I dont have passion for sikhism.I am frustrated by the sikh clergy-politician nexus.They are in no way different than fundoo mullahs or VHP.probably that is why Badal has to make coalition govt even if he wins majority on his own and the jathedars keep on issuing hukamnamas on ridiculous matters or if someone tries to tell them something sensible.
And SGPC..?? the little said the better.
Morcha against mahant seva dass(of nanakana sahib),guru ke bagh da morcha,jaito da morcha,kunjiyaN da morcha..gone are those days and those people.I made so many people read Sohan Singh Josh,s book,``Akaali morcheyaN da ithaas``.Most of the people who established SGPC in1920 and susequently Akali Dal,left the movement as it went in the hands of big landlords and joined kirti-kissan party which became communist party later.
I feel,the message of Gurus has been killed by putting it into narrow confines of religeon and the useless pot-bellied fellows sitting in the gurudwaras and flourishing on people`s hard earned money are dictating us and interpretting Guru`s words in their own ways.We have developed more rituals than gurus had told us to leave.

Just wanted to share a poem which I had written in 1991

hun asiN tuhathoN jawab nahiN mangday
bayshuq tusiN baRi koshish keeti
sawaal hi banay rehn di
kaday tusiN neela taara ban kay
saaday akaash tay chhaye
kaday tusiN saadi dharti vich
itihaas chhupaun layi
thaaN thaaN tay toay puttay...
duaa layi uthay saaday hathaaN tay
barood chhiRkeya
sarbat da bhalaa mangan waleyaaN day galaaN vich
balday tayeraN di maala payi

tussaN mausmaaN naal saajbaaj keeti
tay har haamla rutt da hamal giraya
tussiN saday khetaaN nu banjar bana ditta
par gharaaN diyaaN vehReyaN vich
jangli fullaN nu uggnoN kaun rokda
assiN tajurbay choN sikh liya hai
ke tuhaaday geometry diyaaN
saariyaaN rekhaaNwan kathiyaN ho kay vi
manukhi jazbeyaN nu
manmarzi da akaar nahiN day sakdiyaN

assiN haadseyaN sang jeena sikh liya hai
tay saanu har taraN day shor choN
sanget chhanan di jaach aa gayi hai
par tussiN
unhaaN geetaN da ki karogay
jehRay tuhaaday shaastri sangeet diyaN
haddaN andar nahiN auNday

hun assiN nahiN
tussiN baybas ho

HP#335:

Sorry, there has been some confusion. I had posted an excerpt from The Dawn of May 14 in response to your post#310 to Netizen where you had stated that there was no tension between Hindus and Muslims in Sindh. The following excerpt that I posted, and for which I asked your opinion, seemed to suggest that communal tensions in Sindh started long before in Punjab where they did not start until 1947. Somehow, this post disappeared in the cyberspace and never appeared here. So, I am posting it again.


``Visionary leader of Sindh

By Javed Qazi


Today marks the death anniversary of Allah Bux Soomro, who was assassinated in 1943.

IN THE political history of Sindh, May 14, 1943 will be remembered as a day of great loss. On that day, Allah Bux Soomro, the visionary leader, was murdered in Shikarpur at the age of 44.

It is not clear why he was killed but it is generally believed that elements hostile to Sindh’s centuries’ old tradition of peace among different faiths and creeds were responsible.

Allah Bux Soomro was chief minister when communal riots broke out in Shikarpur. He intervened to stop the trouble. Extremist forces had gathered in Sukkur on the Masjid Manzil Gah issue. Braving all odds, Mr Soomro delivered a moving speech, appealing to the people to remain calm. He assured the Muslims of the right to pray at Masjid Manzil Gah and at the same time assured the Hindus of safe access to Sadh Belo, the way to which passed close to the mosque. Opportunists had stirred up feelings against Hindu traders and the unrest was used to grab Hindu properties. The incident was exploited by Mr Soomro’s political rivals, and he lost the support of the Hindu members. As a consequence, his government was brought down.``

#327 by dost-mittar

“HP:
You didn`t say whether the historical information in the excerpt I posted was correct or not.”

Here is what you wrote in your post # 279 “I have been scanning Pakistani news media for almost ten years and I have not read a single article which says that Aurangzeb was not a true Muslim.”

Is there anybody in the subcontinent who would deny that Aurangzeb was a Muslim?

What different historical information did you scan from Pakistani Newspapers? Why would Pakistani Newspaper write something different?

If your emphasis is on TRUE then nobody gets to decide that. Echoboom on this site appears to be a true Muslim but he spends some of his time going to porn sites and he enjoys descriptive sex (read his interacts on some threads) So is he a true Muslim?
True Muslim is just a figure of speech. Nobody knows what a true Muslim is!

DM/KAURA/DILLI
Thanks a lot.
I know the confusion about the religeous identity historically and the discussions which took place between arya samajis and singh sabha at Lahore.One of the founders op sigh sabha and the editor of their first official periodical was Giani Ditt Singh who himself was a member of arya samaj at one stage.His most fierce arguements took place with swami Daya Nand himself where he defeated swami and hence after sikhs started moving away from arya samaj.Recently his biography has been published.

Sikhs still dont have clear cut separate identity.They still stick to castes.Giani Ditt was almost forgotten because he was from lower caste.They keep saying this that all PPs were from lower castes,but still practice casteism in the same way as hindus do.Still many sikhs follow the old hindu rituals like immersing ashes at Haridwar.As kaura said earlier,they will marry their chlidren in hindu families but not in ``lower caste``sikh families.I am sure you will say it is a process of evolution and because of common ancestral pool,some vestigial traditions are bound to be there and will die out gradually.I am not sure of this,hence happy to be atheist.My wife goes to Gurudwara,but I am happy to stay at home.

DM ji,you are right about the common village deities but sadly that tradition is dying down.In my village,there was a similar place-nobody new about its history-just called baba ThakkraN wala.My friend`s grandfather,who was ex INA soldier started living there may be because of some domestic problem and he made the place more popular.Occasionally somebody will organize akhand paath there but during the 80s,he was killed and now there is a huge gurudwara by the name gurudwara baba Thakkar ji.After a few years it will be only a sikh place,not common place as the polarization has already started.

DM,
Thanks, I knew it but was`nt sure about it.

Sindhis are interesting, they goto Gurudwara for all major rituals(marriage, birth, death), younger generation is going away from the Gurudwara(you are right).

Shish: Kiske age been baja raha hai yaar. Tumcha Kal Waste kareel.
A real Sikh would see all the descrepancies and take the charge to fix them, not use these matters excuses to let go of Sikhi.

I just met a man yesterday, who had disasscociated himself from the not only Sikhs but also Indians. His argument was why go to the Gurudwara, where people have politics.

Only weak feeble minded people talk like that, real Khalsa work even harder to make the difference.
Imagine if Guru Nanak had said, ``O` Why bother let them go where they are going, let me meditate in peace`` instead of doing what he did.
This character is not a Sikh, he is in love with his own ego, that`s it.

delhiwalla:

Guru Angad Devji was a Trehan Khatri.
About Sindhis, from my own circle it seems that the sikhi tradition among younger Sindhis is dying. Forced to make a choice between a sikh or a hindu identity, the younger ones are not coming to the gurudwara any more, at least not in Ottawa.

HP:
You didn`t say whether the historical information in the excerpt I posted was correct or not.

323,

This is taking place again today.


Manikaran in the Parvati valley is beautiful and pictureseque drive. There are hot springs. A gurudwara and mandir share common ground and langar (kitchen). The mutherfukking `sadhus` are stoned with narcotics, inappropriate with women.....hassle pilgrims (mostly sikhs)....They have installed Hindu idols in the gurudwara. I threw away the `parsad` received at the mandir.... and refused the langar....ran out of there after 5 minutes......took us 4 hour drive to get there..... told the others to do the same. The place is filthy.

I did the samething - threw away the parsad at ``Gurudwara Chola Sb.`` - Dera Baba Nanak near the Pak border opposite Narowal/Kartarpur. I wasn`t taking any parsad from mutherfukking mahants....and their business.....

#317 shishapa

I cannot change your attempt to put spin on something I wrote. You need to read history and learn a few things before hitting the Keyboard.
Your RSS trained head will clear up once you begin to read history instead of RSS.org

The Mahants at the Gurudwars were Hindus. They had desecerated the places in every way......They installed idols of Hindu dieties......They raped, killed on the premisis.....brought in Hindu rituals.

Led to sikh agitations in 1900s......a lot of sikhs died.....most infamous Nanakana Sb. Saka (massacre).....Sikhs took over Gurudwaras with force and formation of the Gurudawara Act and SGPC.

These events and hostility by Hindu Orgs. like the Arya Samaj created the rift and distinction.

My nani`s several sisters didn`t have sikh names....ALL were hindu names.....though they were Sikhs....probably because they hailed from the eastern most part of United Punjab. My grandparents generation were born in early 1900s. They didn`t visit any Saadhs, pirs, or mandirs - neither did their parents who lived in late 1800s. It was frowned upon.

A few years back, I tried visiting some muslims places that were abandoned in 47. I got yelled at. This has happened more than a few times.

DM #306,
If Dawn is your source of info then I just might tell you have I have not read it in more than two years barring headlines here and there. If you are looking for non-info about Pakistan, you read Dawn. Dawn`s readership is generally Urdu Speaking from UP, CP and articles in Dawn cater to its readership.

Both Ayaz Amir and CowasJi are two columnist whose opinion changes as often as wind changes directions in Karachi. I am not sure about the quality of “Historical” articles in Dawn magazine section but I know one thing they never publish any thing that represent Sindhi, Baloch or Pukhtoon History. They don’t even bother to print article that contradict the Official history views.
Some source of Info you have!
I guess nobody ever told you about who the Haroons are. Ask Omar Qureshi sometime!

Netzen # 304. ``As non-muslims are decreasing as % I guess there is a less chance of knowing others.``
There are more than 1%:)
Only rural Sindh has a significant Hindu population and I doubt that rest of the Pakistan is conversant with any other religion besides Islam. That too is a big question mark!

Re # 310

``Sometime history is cruel, but you will not find a single Sindhi Muslim who would not regret Hindu departure from Sindh. ``

That is good to know but bonds of Islam definitely overrode this feeling. I mean Sindhi Muslims wanted to be part of Muslim Pakistan more than wanting to keep Sindhi Hindus from departing. They did make efforts to become part of Pakistan (didn`t they?) but there were no efforts to keep them from departing, just feeling of regrets. And certainly no efforts to get them back.

He was a Khatri.

311,

That is another MYTH and a LIE . JATS in Punjab were one of the lowest on the social status. Sikhism elevated and liberated their status.

NONE of the original KHALSA was jat. Panj Piyaras, Guru Govind Singh ji, Banda Singh Bahadur were ALL NON-Jats.

Original heroes were ALL NON-Jats. They were Ahluwalias, Ramgarias (Carpenters), Khatris, Rajputs etc.

Jat surperiority is a myth created by Jats and Jat wannabes.

Re: # 314


good info.

``Panj Piyaras, Guru Govind Singh ji, Banda Singh Bahadur were ALL NON-Jats. ``

I know that P.P. were from as far of as Bidar, and Banga Bahadur was a Rajput, what about Guru Govind Singh ji?

Re: # 315
Also, P P were from Hastinapur(UP), Lahore, Bidar, Puri and Dwarka.

Re: # 315
Also, P P were from Hastinapur(UP), Lahore, Bidar, Puri and Dwarka.

Re: # 315
It is Guru Gobind Singh not Guru Govind Singh.

He was born of Sodhi clan a Khatri, it is hard to put where he was from, I would all over India. He was born in Patliputar(Patna), raised in Anandpur and parts of H P.

His rand Father`s Grand Father GuruRamdas was from Lahore.

Re: # 318
Guru Nanak was Bedi
Guru Angad was Khatri(DM saab please add here).
Guru AmarDas was a Bhalla
Guru Ramdas and the rest of Sikh Gurus were all Sodhis.

Re: # 310

one of my sindhi friend is from Larkana. He is very proud of his home land. He says that his grandfather was a landlord along with Bhuttos family. He always tells me that there was no enimity b/t the common man only politicians created it, which I have hard to digest.
What do you say about Jhulle Lal? I read something that hindus and muslims, both claimed him. Also Lal Dad (?)

#304 Netizen

Both Sindhi Hindu and Muslims are of Sufi thought. You will never find a Sindhi Hindu or Muslim disparaging each other’s religion even in privacy. The saints, pir or religious figures whether they were Hindu, Sikh or Muslims were and still are respected by Sindhis.
Sachal Surmast a Saint or a pir or sufi whatever you want to call him still has thousands of Sindhi Hindu visitors from India. Pir Sahib Jhok Sharif a Muslim had majority Hindu following. You will not find any distinction in his followers.
I know about Sindhi Hindus and their reverence to Guru Nanak. It has been a long time that Sindhi Hindu left Sindh but I doubt that they will change their basic beliefs because they don’t live in Sindh any more.
I met lots of Sindhi Hindu in New York and some of them can’t even speak Sindhi anymore but their respect and love for Sindh has not diminished.
I think you need to search for Sindh on GOOGLE to know more about Sindhi Hindu- Muslim relations before the partition. Sometime history is cruel, but you will not find a single Sindhi Muslim who would not regret Hindu departure from Sindh.

#303 by delhiwala on May 20, 2005 2:27pm PT
Re: # 291
Drlokraji,
Problem started when Hindus started asserting that Sikhs are Hindus in North India, because at that time Hindus realized that Sikhs are not needed anymore or are less effective or both. British played a role in saving the Sikh identity by ensuring all Soldiers to be Amritdhari. During these times, due to lack of direction Sikhs were loosing their values, Dayal Singh s/o Ranjit`s famous General became a Dev-Samaji and many more.
(Sunny Deol would`nt be an Arya Samaji but for this time in history).

It is not that there is anything wrong in someone adopting any religion but when others attack you to become like them, it becomes a basic revolt in Sikhs, Equality for All by All.
Arya Samaj was attacking Sikhs in 1800s, confronting Sikhs on the streets and engaging them in arguments, if they did not answer back then they were forced to shed Sikhi. I was told by my elder that she had heard from her father that in Lahore in 1890s, Arya Samajis enagaged in dialogues a Carpenter(Tarkhan) wheather he knew Sukhmani Sahib or not.
Obviously, this guy had never read it, he was convinced based on these silly logics to become a Arya Samaji.

Kahn Singh`s book was a reposnse to Arya Samaji movement, please read the Arya Samaj`s founder`s words about Guru Nanak
``Idhar Udhar se JorR ke Chalaya hai Panth``.
``Pehle Safa Rukh liya pher chele Kar Liye``

Even Aurengzeb did not write so negatively about Guru Nanak as Arya Samajis did. What do you expect Sikhs to do, cut their hair and become Arya Samajis and join Hindus after doing Shudhi and wearing Janoyes?????
You are only paying attention to a subset of time, not the whole picture.
Singh Sabha movement was started when Arya Smaajis have started churning the poisson in Punjab against the Sikhs.

I also have Hindu and Sikh relatives in my own family but your assesment is totally wrong about Kahn Singh`s book.
I feel your pain at the violence in 80ies and killing of communists and other innocents and I am totally against the innocent Hindus and Sikhs being killed in Punjab in 80ies, even though I almost lost my own life twice. But please do not undermine the Sikh`s entity in your posts.

Guru Tegbahadur, certainly was a representative of the Kashmiri Brahmins, though he was himself against the philosophy of Manu Smirities.

Would you call Christ as a Jew and Christians as Jews?
or for that matter, Hindus as Adivasis, who lived in India prior to Aryan invasion?

Sindhis,
I had never known many Sindhis in India except some who did have Akhand Path for theeir main events.

However, when I came to USA, I realized how many Sindhis go to Gurudwaras.
Geln rock Gurudwara in NJ and other Gurudwaras in LI have considerable amount of dedicated Sindhis. I was humbled few weeks ago by a Sindhi Doctor, when he sang Shabads sitting next to while his wife did the Langar.

#306
Sorry, I meant starting with 1870s, not 1970s.

Drlokraj#291:

This is a highly controversial subject where rigours of scholarship take a back seat to questions of politics and identity. Here is my take. The Sikh identity has been changing gradually since the Singh Sabha and Tat Khalsa movements, starting with 1970s. Before that, several sikh identities coexisted, just as they coexist among Hindus today: there were Udasin, followers of Guru Nanak`s sons, followers of Sodhis, Namdharis, Sehajdharis, Khalsa, etc. The dominant faction at that time were the Sanatanists. They found the roots of Sikh religion in the Sanatan traditions and believed the Gurus to be the avatars of Ram and Krishan. The Tat Khalsa led a revolt against this with the book by Bhai Kahn Singh`s mentioned by you, a significant goalpost. They also developed distinct Sikh rituals for births, marraiges, deaths, etc. Their most permanent secular contribution was to abandon Urdu in favour of Gurmukhi; if they had not done so, Gurmukhi perhaps would not have enjoyed the pride of place it does today in Punjab.

Generally speaking, religious identities were less consolidated in Punjab not only among Sikhs but also among Hindus and Muslims until the end of the 19th century. People were nominally Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs but they were more attached to a village deity, peer, jogi, etc. (remember how Ranjha was a chela of guru Gorakh Nath?). One of the most popular ones throughout Punjab was a Muslim saint called Sakhi Sarvar.

HP:
I read news less than I read views. Dawn alone has about 6-7 opinion pieces every day, in addition to the regular editorials and columns by Mazdak, Ayaz Amir and Cowasji. They also have The Review and Magazine. There is a piece relating to religion/history every other day if not daily.

delhiwala:
India has not named any new streets after Aurangzeb or Sultans (Akbar, maybe). The streets you refer to all old streets named before the Partition. You can only give Indians credit for not changing names. There are, however, several new streets, developments and institutions named after modern Indian Muslims, such as Shaukat Ali, Ajmal Khan, Asaf Ali, Maulana Azad, Kidwai or Zakir Hussain.

302,

Dada Chela Ram established a Sindhi sikh ASHRAM in Bombay, Delhi and Saprron (Solan, HP).

Their sikhi is limmited to belief in Nanak and Guru Granth Sahib. They lack other practices of sikhs. And openly declare that the ASHRAM is NOT a Gurudwara. They worship the Granth like an idol with an Arti fire.

Many NanakPanthis (Sindhi followers of Nanak) still reside in Sindh - they live in bad conditions.....and are getting baptized into sikhism to escape persecution at the hands of muslims.

Re: # 305

hmm..
Is it that following Guru Nanak is a Khatri thing whereas Khalsa is more of Jat phenomenon, Guru Gobind himself being a jat?

Netizen

Most Punjabis growing up in Pakistan now have not seen a Sikh in their lives (barring Indian movies). They heard stories about them but they have no idea about the cultural similarities or even about Sikh religion.
This is almost the third generation after the partition and it does not seem like that they will need to learn about Sikh religion in the next few generations either.
Tahmed or I can learn about Sikh religion on our own but the social contact is not there for us to pick up mundane info about Sikh religion or Sikhs generally etc.
So, it is not at all necessary for a Pakistani Punjabi to know about Sikhs.

I thank guys for the info that I gleaned thru this thread but honestly, on my own I may not have tried. Tahmed, at least Googled for it and people should respect that.

#300 ``who know thru elders or books, feign ignorance.``

Again it is your assumption. How many people really care about history? I have read about the Sikh rule but as part of Indian history nothing more nothing less.

Re: # 301

``Most Punjabis growing up in Pakistan now have not seen a Sikh in their lives (barring Indian movies). They heard stories about them but they have no idea about the cultural similarities or even about Sikh religion.
This is almost the third generation after the partition and it does not seem like that they will need to learn about Sikh religion in the next few generations either. ``

so what about the other religions like hindus, jains, buddhists, jews and christians. As non-muslims are decreasing as % I guess there is a less chance of knowing others.

Re: # 301

thanks for the info. do you know that hindu sindhis revere Guru Nanak. My sindhi friends pray to Guru Nanak as they would to other hindu gods. Infact while watching there wedding ceremony I realised that they do go to Sikh Gurudwaras to tie the knot in presence of the living guru, Granth Sahib. At my college the prinicipal, a Sindhi hindu had a portrait of Guru Nanak in his office.

If Tahmed was born before partition, he should know about sikhs. It is surprising that his parents talked about the old village but not sikhs.

Most Pakis are not taught about the ``glorious chapter`` of sikh rule - those who know thru elders or books, feign ignorance.

I don`t know what caused Tahmeed`s amnesia.

#279 by dost-mittar

“I have been scanning Pakistani news media for almost ten years and I have not read a single article which says that Aurangzeb was not a true Muslim.”

Did you find any article that said Dara Shikoh WAS NOT a true Muslim?
How subjective you guys can be?
Newspapers don’t carry Historic records, they carry news. Like Newspapers in India, Pakistani newspapers have their own agenda and no single Paper has exclusive control over Pakistan domain. They write and publish what fits their policies.
You obviously lack the sophistication like many Indians on this site to even understand what political thoughts newspapers represent and where they are coming from.
It is so funny reading that Indians are learning about Pakistan from reading English or even Urdu Newspapers. It is okay to quote newspaper for news, quoting newspapers for evidence in historical issue is sheer stupidity.

#295 by jang
#294 by Netizen

Why is it necessary or everybody to know about Sikhism? I don’t know a whole lot, neither do I care (don’t mean to offend anybody here). People get info when they need them. Do you guys know every thing about Baloch or Sindhi?
Sikh and Hindu live in India, and Indian should know about each other. why a Pakistani should worry about that in Pakistan or even in the USA.

You guys are just hilarious!

Re: # 296

HP,

sikhs represent ~20 % of punjabi culture and were/are a significant part of its tradition and history. Isn`t Ranjit Singh the only Punjabi kingdom in punju history with Lahore as its capital. Even some punju pakis admitted that it was a glorious chapter in punjabi history. Some punju pakis were talking about a Punjabi nation comprising all punjus. In light of all these I was amazed. and yes tahmed is an all-arounder hence i was stumped.
With regard to sindhis I do know about them, i graduated from a college managed by Sindh Collegiate Board, Hyderabad. After partition they set up colleges in ulhasnagar later in mumbai. I have sindhi freinds with whom i studied. So I do know about sindhis. about Balochis no. Never met one. But that doesn`t correspond to tahmed ignorance about basic Sikh tenets. You can be excused if you don`t know you are not punju. But a punjabi, that too tahmed. Toaba toaba.

#294 heh heh ...
look dont harass the great panjabi... he only posted with much relief once he realized that the tenets are compatible with islam (and iconoclastic to boot)

291,

Dr LR,

1. Sikh Gurus were against oppression by ALL against ALL. Sikh sardars had laid down lives to save mostly Hindu and muslim girls from Abdali. When Nakkai (Chunnia) Sardars attacked Kasur, they were trying to save a Hindu girl. It was not uncommon for Hindus and muslims to seek help from sikhs. Muslim subedars in Punjab often recruited sikhs` help to fight their battles. Teg Bahadur simply spoke against oppression and laid down his life to fight zulm.

2. During the earlier stages of sikhism. Most converts were from Hindu conversions. They did have relatives and culture of Hindus that was a big part of them; so of course, their was no contrast and clear line between the two communities.

3. Sikhs only married Hindus as last resort. It is not the first choice. or highly sought after relations unless caste plays a role. A sikh jat would rather marry into a Hinud Jat than a sikh mazbi or even a khatri. (thats mostly a Jat thing). but, they will give first priority to a Sikh Jat. Same thing goes with a Sikh Khatri, Ramgaria, etc.

Hindu Right wingers like RSS and others have become notorious for their assertions due to POLITICAL and PSYCHOLOGICAL reasons only. They are trying to ``correct`` and ``rewrite`` history. Their actions are reactionary to the failings of Hindus over the past 10 centuries or so. They even claim Indian muslims and want them to reconvert. They had MORE TRAITORS than heroes in their amidst for the past 10 centuries. So, they want to claim whatever and whoever they can. If they can go to such extremes and absurdity that Taj Mahal is Hindu temple. laying claim to Guru Gobind Singh is a minor thing to them....Do note, many Hindus esp. Brahmins opposed the Gurus and their teachings - they undermined them in several ways.

Hindu rituals have CREPT into sikhism with time and converts bringing their OLD baggage. It doesn`t mean that there is no difference.

#249 by tahmed32 on May 20, 2005 7:05am PT
delhiwala/kaura: I googled sikh religion, and learnt a bit about the basic tenets. It is clearly a mixture of islam and hinduism: monotheism and equality of man is from islam, while concept of reincarnation is from hinduism. The mughals (aurangzeb) do seem to have tried to get sikhs to become muslims - but that seems to have been for political reasons, since (as Guru Gobind`s letter to him posted by kaura indicates) even Aurangzeb was basically a ``bearded politician`` and nothing more.

our ancestral village was in sassoli, district hoshiarpur. lived there since at least the early 1800`s, since the line of ancestors, :-) ends with a certain chaudhry baga (wolf) who romped around at that time.

---

Tahmad sahib, how old are you? So finally in year 2005..at the age of 13 you have googled and found the truth about something that was happening or is in your backyard?:-)

as for Baagha...one of my ancestors was also named Baagha Singh:-)

Re: # 292
Oye Dullya tu vi relative niklya Tahmed da.

Re: # 292

``Tahmad sahib, how old are you? So finally in year 2005..at the age of 13 you have googled and found the truth about something that was happening or is in your backyard?:-) ``

I too was stumped when I realised that the all knowing, mostly sensible punjabi googling to know about the basic tenets of Sikhism. I guess no one is perfect ;)

#269 dehliwala

You seem to be a knowledgeable person but you are wrong about the Koran. It includes a good deal of hate-speech towards non-muslims, including specific instructions for murder.

Here is a specific verses:

009:029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah…nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

There are many others. They are no better or no worse than those found in many other religions.

But they clearly show how far from the truth folks like tahmed go when they claim ``islam preaches equality of all men``. It is shameful that an educated person should spin truth in such a fashion.

dilli,
``Regardless, Tahmed is a great man due to his worth not his race, religion or anything else.``

..our race, religion etc plays a great role in what our ``worth`` is, on the average..so if he is worthy due to his race and religion, then his religion and race is superior, else he is extra-ordinary and trancended his otherwise ordinary race and religion.

kind of like me.. a sikh admirer inspite of not being ``born`` sikh ;-)

Re: # 288
Jang,
By your logic anyone who is not christian is a low caste because, Christians are controlling the world for the last 500 years.

Bhuankya: Lidh Unhu khialye jidda tu agent hai.

i think kaura rocks in his views on hinduism. hindu (or indian) philosophy indeed is a lot of loosy-goosy observations of human fraility, narure etc, give multiple and sometimes conflicting views.

Most Dalits did convert to Islam for obvious reasons. BUT, their position didn`t improve - ie the treatment of `chooras` in W Punjab - and they converted yet to another religion to escape the prejudice - Christianity.


It is stupid and foolish to say most Hindus converted under the sway of Sufis. Forced conversions are happening daily. Because of humilliations and persecution. Hindus are converting in Bangladesh and Pakistan (Leah incident among others). There is no open and large scale persecution as it happened in history because of fear of back lash in neighboring India and world image.

Millions of Jats, Rajputs, Brahmins were converted by force. They didn`t have any reason to convert since they ruled the roost unlike Dalits. But, they converted. Now, they are known as Sayeeds..etc.

How come, these Sufis didn`t convert a single person where muslims didn`t rule?

Very few upper classes converted for different reasons. I`ve heard one distant relative of a Guru converted to marry a muslim girl. His descendent was one of the PMs (?)of Pakisatan. It was in the news.



Dilliwaalya,

tu lidh karno naeen hatda @#%$%$#%!! apni bewakoofi na chhalka.

Stupidity and shameless Lies at display.

Re # 283

``1. netaji palkar defected to aurangzeb based on money-career disputes willingly, and aurangzeb accepted him as a mansabdar under the condition that he and his kabila become muslim. he was sent to the forntier province and felt cheated, and came back to sivaji and reconverted. ``

Jang,

Thanks for correcting. I think you are right. It has been so many years since reading about these things, it is easy to mis-state, sorry.

I think that this is where the dialogue will cease.
Tahmed has presented his position well considering that he is alone in answering the questions.

Bottom line is that till the shariat is prime for Muslims, it will be considered their religous duty to establish Dar-Ul-Islam by Zihad(different types available), let there be no doubt in anyones mind about it. We don`t need to dig in more than that to reach at conclusions and let us maintain civiltiy at this site.
Tahmed is a fine man and I respect his secular views.

Next challenge is for Muslim Ulemmas is to steer the modern Islamic world that is centered around global economics and secular lifestyles. This is very essential for survival of mankind and Islam, as I see it.

Nadir Shahs, Abdalis and Baburs are not possible in modern day world. Secular West is the forerunner of modern day Mai-Baap and all that really matters these days. Considering that a small country like Isreal with the support of USA could keep the whole Arab world at bay and the Arabs could not do anything about it, should make then rethink their stand and initiate internal restructuring to align Islam with the Modern Day, generally Secular new World Order.

Ameen!

just correcting some inaccuracies based on my readings:

1. netaji palkar defected to aurangzeb based on money-career disputes willingly, and aurangzeb accepted him as a mansabdar under the condition that he and his kabila become muslim. he was sent to the forntier province and felt cheated, and came back to sivaji and reconverted.

2. dara sikoh is un-necessarily glorified by indians. he was a worthless charsee and afimchi (not that different than many other mughals) and a totally incompetent leader. in one case, for siege of kandahar, he took 40 sadhus to do vodoo on the folks inside the fort to secure a win. offcourse this failed. in short, he was fairly stupid and hence was not supported by most rajput mansabdars in the war of succession for a good reason.

3. ramdas and sivaji met much later in sivajis life...by then sivaji was already a successful guerilla-band leader.

4. i dont think tahmeds ancestors were shudras .. unless he is as dark as an injun.

Re: # 283

Tahmed`s ancesstors name was Chaudhray Baag. He has to be a Rajput or Khatree by origin. I have never heard a Shudra as Chaudhry.

Regardless, Tahmed is a great man due to his worth not his race, religion or anything else.

May be all Muslim women need to tell Muslim men, we are ``outa here`` for making our testimony half of that of a man, for not allowing us to marry four men, for putting us in Burkha, for divorcing us by saying ``Talaq Talaq Talaq`` etc. etc..
I would be proud of my mother for telling that to all Muslim men and clegry and all those ``supposedly equality preaching men`` in the eyes of the god.
Now whom should these Muslim women thank for that?

Netizen:

``Untill the 19th century, sikhs were counted as hindus in the census.``

The picture was somewhat more confusing. Some Hindus would also enumerate themselves as Sikhs in the 19th century. In fact, the same person would declare himself as Sikh/Hindu in one census and the opposite in the next census. This resulted in large fluctuations in the Sikh population from census to census. Harjot Oberoi, the first chair of the Sikh studies at the University of British Columbia, did a rigorous study of this subject in his ``The Construction of Religious Boundaries``. His findings, however, did not find favour with a section of the nouveau Sikh orthodoxy.

tahmed#259

I am quite aware of your views and you have been quite consistent in expressing them. But it is difficult to accept them as views of the Muslim majority. I have been scanning Pakistani news media for almost ten years and I have not read a single article which says that Aurangzeb was not a true Muslim. Perhaps, you could refer me to some such articles, preferably from Urdu media, which says that Aurangzeb or Ghazni were not true Muslims.

Re: # 279
DM ji,about the times you are talking,there were no clearcut boundaries between hindu and sikh religeons.In many hindu famlies,it was tradition to make their eldest son sikh.This whole separation process started after Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha`s book,``Hum Hindu NahiN``.
Guru Teg Bahadur sacrificed his life for protecting Hinduism.Still most of sikhs say that the ninth guru gave his life for the sake of hinduism.Now tell me honestly,was Aurangzeb a dumb person who accepted someone as a representative of a religeon to which he did not belong?
I am a critic of the communal agenda of BJP and its mentor RSS,but on this account,they have some valid arguements which are not easy to dispute.

Re: # 291
Drlokraji,
Problem lies when Hindus started asserting that Sikhs are Hindus, because at that time Hindus realized that Sikhs are not needed anymore.

Kahn Singh`s book was a reposnse to Arya Samaji movement, please read the Arya Samaj`s founder`s words about Guru Nanak
``Idhar Udhar se JorR ke Chalaya hai Panth``.
Even Aurengzeb did not write so negatively about Guru Nanak as Arya Samajis did. What do you expect Sikhs to do, cut their hair and become Arya Samajis and join Hindus after doing Shudhi and wearing Janoyes?????
You are only paying attention to a subset of time, not the whole picture.
Singh Sabha movement was started when Arya Smaajis have started churning the poisson in Punjab against the Sikhs.

I also have Hindu and Sikh relatives in my own family but your assesment is totally wrong about Kahn Singh`s book.

I am totally against the innocent Hindus being killed in Punjab in 80ies, even though I almost lost my own life twice. But please do not undermine the Sikh`s entity in your words.

Guru Tegbahadur, certainly was a representative of the Kashmiri Brahmins, though he was himself against the philosophy of Manu Smirities.

Would you call Christ as a Jew and Christians as Jews?
or for that matter, Hindus as Adivasis, who lived in India prior to Aryan invasion?

Re: # 303

``Would you call Christ as a Jew and Christians as Jews? ``

thats an interesting point. I would call him a jew. Reason:

early christianity was nothing but a jewish sect. when jesus died (was crucified) the people leading the sect were jews, his brothers John, James. It remained a jewish thing until Paul (originally Saul) who himself was a jew, came to the scene. In his early life Paul was messiah-hunter (killing those following jesus) in the roman army. One time he had a ``vision`` and became a christian and started propagating christianity. As a part of this Jewish ritual a person had to be circumcised. It was Paul who argued against it and made it possible to convert peoople to Christianity without undergoing circumcision. He started missionary activites and started talking about the messiah who would come to liberate the people off their suffering. Then the process started, which I would describe as Multi Level Marketing, whereby each convert started converting others. And the christian faith started. Eventually Paul was hunted down and crucified, up side down (at his request). But Christianity had grown from a jewish sect into a religion by itself. It took a few more centuries until Constantine claimed Christiniaty as the state religiona and gave it an official status. There was no going back then. If christianity had remained a jewish sect, may be rest of the europe would have become muslim. Strange are the way things work.
I hope i answered you.
Hence, in u.s. theya re talking about Judeo-Christian values and ``jews for christ``

Re: # 308

netizen:
i would have to disagree with you slightly on your assertion that christianity remained a jewish thing until paul arrived on the scene. christianity began the day the risen christ appeared to his disciples as is indicated in the book of acts. . . in the first chapter. i will not post the entire chapter, but christ`s words to his disciples are worth noting:

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth..

judeo-christian is used in the sense that much of christian practice is derived from jewish ritual and custom for lack of better words, but the differences were established on the day of pentecost. . . christianity is not a jewish sect, and thus not part of the jewish faith. christianity shares similarities with the jewish faith, while diverging from it as well. baptizing in the name of the father, the son, and holy spirit is one of the ways. . . circumcision is another. (even though there are cultures where christians still are circumcised, such as in pakistan). and there are other ways.

jesus was a jew. but jesus`s followers were not. the twelve disciples, peter, andrew, james, john, philip, thomas, bartholomew, matthew, james of alphaeus, simon, judas (not iscariot) and matthias who replaced judas iscariot became christians by baptism with the gift of the `holy spirit`, and those baptized in the name of christ were not followers of a jewish sect. they were by baptism christian, witnesses to christ, and a new way of life.

just thought i`d bring your attention to this. you seem to be the carrier of all sorts of information. . . but your interpretation is not wholly representative of how and what we believe as christians.

Re: # 326

``i would have to disagree with you slightly on your assertion that christianity remained a jewish thi