Amrita Pritam

#91,
How do you know that I don`t know more about Pakistan than you do, wheather it is IT, Army or movies etc??

Anyways, I don`t think that I am getting my point across, humbly speaking, I must have a shortcoming in my communications.

My Observations about you:
1) You are a nationalistic Pakistani who cares more about Pakistani identity and unification that can be achieved by using URDU.

2) You love Punjabi to the extent that it is a language that your ancestors spoke, and you would like your children to know it, so that they can also share Heer, Sussy-Punnu, Mirza etc. It is like me learning Spanish or French to increase my resume potential.

3) You have not showed any pride in being a Punjabi but a Pakistani who can speak Punjabi as a street language.

4) You do have some feelings of goodness in your heart, That is why you are on this thread with us.

5) Your concept of a Punjabi is someone who is born in Punjab, may or maynot speak Punjabi.


My summary:
For me,
Punjabi is a question of survival to preserve our Religious identity. I will go extra miles to learn Hindi, Marathi, Sanskrit, French or Spanish to be competitive in market.
I can speak and write 5 Languages but my thought process is Punjabi/Hindi Combo. The day my dreams appear in English I will consider myself English(it will never happen).
Pakistanis have sacrificed Punjabi on the altar of TNT because they did not know how to retain Punjabi and coexist with others.
Indian Punjabis have maintained a relationship of coexistence with Hindi belt, Hindi is second language in E Punjab.

Re: # 96 Romair ``If Punjabi becomes the medium of anything in Punjab alone, by default, it becomes the medium in all of Pakistan. Even the Sariaki speakers, geographically within Punjab, will not accept that.``

This is not true. It all depends on what dialect of Punjabi is made the official Punjabi. If the dialect of Lahore-Amristar is imposed then the Siraiki belt, or more accurately leftist intellectuals in the Siraiki belt, may have problems with it, but if the Punjabi of Sahiwal, Sarogodha or Jhang Sial, for instance, is made the official Punjabi then the Siraiki belt will have no problems with it at all since the Punjabi of these areas is pretty much identical to Siraiki. The Siraiki issue is all about politics and economics, not linguistics. Once southern Punjab gets its share of the pie the Siraiki movement, which no one heard of before the creation of Pakistan and has a history of only 20-30 years, will disappear into thin air.

If the foolish think that Urdu will be the uniting force, it hasn`t worked in the past 5 decades. i.e. Bangladesh, and other turmoils. Shoving Hindi down the throats has caused equal number of headaches and is more or less a futile exercise.

The disagreement and reaction started when some wanted to blame the non muslims for atrocities committed by muslims on the former.

The reason Urdu and Hindi seems so close to Punjabi is that in PakiSatan, Punjabi has been Urdu and Arabized and in E Punjab Hindized. Authentic Punjabi cannot be understood by Hindi speakers and vice versa. Most people are bombarded with Hindi/Urdu media, thus understand the languages.

Romair,
your main arguement is that punjabi can not compete o economic front and nobody will want to send their childern to punjabi medium school compared to english medium.Both the arguements are not rational and do not address the problem we are trying to focus.
About your first arguement about economic viability...by reading punjabi as compusory subject at least till tenth,how come the economic prospects go down?Nobody is arguing for not studying other languages.
Punjabi as language can be made a compulsory subject even in english medium schools,like it has been done in east punjab.
I can give you a long listof names who are whole-time writers in punjabi or journalists or publishers...they are not doing bad economically.
Punjabi pop singers are among the richest artists today in India and punjabi tv channels are not doing bad either.
Even if the language stands at a disadvantaged place economically,who brought it to hat level?Do the policy makers have no responsibility?
You seem to be taking our comments personally which makes you react more at emotional level(which you normally don`t and are amongst the very few rational interactors on Chowk)

Oh I get it. It is OK if Pakistani Muslims ask to partition India, but if Hindus and Sikhs want
partition of Panchaap, it is wrong. It is OK for Kashmiri muslims to kill and kick out Kashmiri Hindus but if Indians fight to keep that province, it is wrong. It is OK for Bangaldeshi muslims to illegaly enter into India but if India builds a fence, it is wrong.

Why did Sindhi, Baluchi, Sarhadi muslims cause trauma to Hindus and Sikhs in their respective lands during partition? what was the reason? Their provinces were not partitioned! But the moment muslims in those provinces got chance, they converted/killed/kicked out hindus and sikhs who had been living longer in those provinces than muslims.

I am convinced, just like most of the people in India that if Punjab and Bengal was not partitioned and handed over to Pakistan in their entirety, Hindus and Sikhs would have become non-existent in both the state very soon.

Re: # 88 kaurasach ``Sikhs would be in standing in queues to get visas to visit the Golden Temple.....and muslims would be fighting to get Azad UP instead of Kashmir. That is the only thing that would`ve been different.``

In actual fact the entire past 57 years of history of Punjab and the subcontinent would have been totally different. Firstly, Ambala marks the historical boundary between Punjab and Hindustan and linguistically, culturally and ethnically is a much more natural dividing line than the present highly unnatural one that runs right through the middle of the Maajha Doab splitting Lahore from its sister city Amritsar and splitting families and clans with common ancestories going back centuries. Secondly, all this Muslim bhra bhra nonsense only took hold in West Punjab after the partition and is already long past its peak. Before 1947 despite all the issues, such as cow slaughter by Muslims, that divided Punjab there was a common sense of nationhood. There may been petty internal squabbling but a Punjabi Muslim would NEVER have put a Pathan, Hindustani, Kashmiri or Arab Muslim before a Punjabi Sikh or Hindu. It was Punjabi Hindus not Punjabi Muslims who first brought into Punjab extra territorial loyalty to foriegners and foriegn lands based on religious nationalism. Even to this day your average Punjabi Hindu feels closer to a Madrasi or a Hindustani than he does to a Sikh, nevermind a Punjabi Muslim.

Dost-mittar #95: ``All Indians welcomed your translation of Amrita Pritam`s poem. Disagreement started when you talked about the demise of the Punjabi language.``

This is not correct, at all. And you know it is not correct. Yet, as usual, the blame for anything divisive along any lines, must be put on someone from across the border.........Let me go through the replies, for you. The whole divisive debate was initiated, by our Indian colleagues, well before I even posted a reply:

``Nice article Mr Umair, I did not know that a Pakistani can also appreciate an Indian writer, anyways, world is full of surprises.``

An insult hidden in a compliment...........A derogatory remark about Pakistanis, even after one of them had attempted to translate something by an Indian.........

This was followed by

``Anyways, I am impressed with Umer knowing so much about Sikh poetry.``

Another insult hidden in a compliment. And an attempt to call this Sikh poetry. While I can understand Kafis from Guru Nanak being considered, ``Sikh`` poetry. What is the world is, ``Sikh`` about this poetry, other than the religion of the author..........

And then it went on and on. And continues with your last reply..........

As for my talking about the demise of Punjabi language. So what. If I think it is in demise, I will state it, with facts. What else should I do? Tell lies? And it is my language, so I will say whatever I want to about it. Why should anyone from across the border give me lectures about how honorable or dishonorable I should be about something I own?

All of this has been an interesting experience. I must say I am extremely disappointed with our Indian interactors on this site, who cannot see beyond India. They have a tendency to abuse, disrespect and humiliate anyone who disagrees with them on anything. And most of all they have a tendency to claim ownership over everything, including those parts related to Pakistan.............This combined with their total lack of knowledge about Pakistan is a very dangerous combination.........

I wish more of them would take the trouble of doing something practical. Rather than dispalying the size of their misguided, ``honor`` to everyone..........How many of them have written anything about a Pakistani author, leader, writer etc. The only things we have seen are a few travelogues. I have written about two Indians, already (Gandhi and Amrita Pritam). And many other Pakistanis have written about Indians...........I belive the total number of Indians who have written about anyone Pakistani remains at zero.......

In fact, if we keep honor in mind, then Amrita Pritam should have been translated by a Sikh, since it is, ``Sikh`` and Indian poetry, and the honor of Punjabi is to be protected by our Indian brethren.........Yet no one did it......However, every Punjabi speaking Indian is ready to complain............

A little introspection is always a good thing...........Please practice it.......

Shishapa,

Good points.

The population of nonmuslims in muslim states and nations is negligible. Mostly, they survive as second class citizens. During partition, the violence and attacks on muslims were restricted to affected provinces. In all of Paksatan, Sindh, Balochistan etc. they were persecuted. Only a handful survived due to isolation, or intervention of solitary influential persons.

Dionsys,

As I said earlier, it would`ve been in the best interest of MUSLIMS to have Ambala as the boundary - not of NON muslims. That was the intention of muslim leaders. Get all of Punjab and then run the Kafirs out. What guarantee was there that if Ambala would`ve been the boundary, there wouldn`t have been persecution of nonmuslims? (They got ALL of Sindh, and the persecution of Hindus goes on to this day.) Even after they saw that they won`t get all of Punjab, they tried to get rid of the infidels by force. There were planned attacks in E Punjab. The failed attack on Golden Temple was the last straw.

Re: # 102
you are wrong on many accounts:
1.Ambala is totally punjabi area
2.boundry between punjab and india is actually yamuna...satluj became boundary between Ranjeet Singh and The Britsh after Ropar agreement
3.even within the british ruled india,there were mainly sikh/punjabi states like Patiala,Nabha,Jeend,Sangrur,Faridkot,Kapurthala
4.No punjabi hindu feels more comfortable in company of madrassi compared to a sikh...in fact this is the biggest joke.Punjabi hindus feel more comfortable even with paki punjabis wherever possible.
5.you say muslim punjabi would never do that to punjabi hindu/sikh...well this is what actually happened in 1947.Hindu/sikhs did not ask for partition.

A matter of script
By A.Qavi Shakoor

Dawn, May 1, 2005


VISUALIZE the following scene: a gorgeous, voluptuous heroine, naively ignorant of her winning advantages, and a prey to gnawing doubts and gloomy misgivings, allows herself to be sneeringly treated like a two-bit extra or a dime-a-dozen chorus girl.

Punjabi is a rich and beautiful language, loved and used by a gifted and energetic population of over 120 million — in Pakistan, India, the Middle East, the UK and North America.

Such an important language is rightly expected to be counted among the major communication vehicles of the world. But, as luck (or bad luck) would have it, this great language is generally given the low grade of a boli (dialect), supposed to be spoken by a rather nondescript community of less than a million souls. What are the factors that have conspired to deprive Punjabi of its due status? When, if at all, would this important medium of expression rise to its true linguistic eminence?

Let us blurt out the bitter truth. Punjabi, unlike Sindhi or Pushto, has always played second fiddle to Urdu, allowing itself to be overshadowed by the national tongue, the important, written language, and the medium of erudition and literature; so much so that educated Punjabis have always tended to distance themselves from their own mother tongue, treating it like a ‘country cousin’, and using it solely to communicate with close relatives, friends, servants, unlettered trades people, and, of course, the rough and tough law enforcing minions. No doubt, they love Punjabi songs (and jokes) and are diverted by Punjabi films and stage shows, but all this enjoyment, this association with the Punjabi language, is on the sly, absolutely unofficial. When it comes to the serious business of life and learning, Punjabi disappears from the scene, leaving it to Urdu and English. Why? Mainly because of its Achilles’ heel, its great weakness — its script.

Across the border Punjabi is written in the Gurumukhi Lipi, an improvement upon Hindi’s unwieldy Devangagari Lipi, while, on our side of the divide, Punjabi makes do with the Persian Nastaaleeq. And here is the crux of the problem. Since before 1857 Nastaaleeq script has so closely been identified with Urdu that 99 per cent of the Punjabis would prefer to express themselves in Urdu, even if they happen to write a letter to their family members.

High time indeed to rescue Punjabi from the mire of an unsatisfactory alphabet and equip it with an efficient method of writing. Courage is required — cool courage that brooks no nonsense and meets opposition with an iron determination.

The best solution for Punjabi would be a left-to-right, preferably Latinized script, but certainly not the clumsy Roman version, hastily hammered out by the clerks of the East India Company to serve the limited needs of the Tommies. Scholarly effort, suffused with creative imagination, is required to develop an efficient system for Punjabi, and offer solutions for a handful of problems. In this respect, the following guidelines should be found helpful:

1. Accented and umlauted vowels, and diacritical marks on consonants must be avoided, because they act as roadblocks and break the speed of a typist. Compare English with French to realize the advantage of having a single ‘a’, ‘e’, ‘c’, etc.

2. No new letters need be introduced; 26 letters of English would suffice. In fact, W and X may become redundant, further simplifying the lingo.

3. In view of our close association with English, we had better adhere to the ‘formats’ and ‘patterns’ of that language.

4. Unlike Urdu, Punjabi can easily do away with the four Arabic Z-sounding letters and use Z for ‘ze’, ‘zal’, ‘zaad’ and ‘zoi’; H for the big ‘ha’ as well as the small ‘ha’, S for ‘sa’, ‘seen’ and ‘saad’, T for ‘ta’ for ‘ta’ and ‘twa’, and vowels for both ‘alif’ and ‘ain’.

A language consists of sounds (consonants) and indicators (vowels). Let us first take care of the Punjabi vowels, which are given below:

1. Short a and long aa

2. Short i and long ie

3. Short u and long ou

4. Long e (no short e)

5. Long o (no short o)

Diphthongs should be represented by combining two vowels, for example, ai, as in khair, oi, as in koi, ua, as in bua, etc.

Aspirated sounds can best be produced by the addition of an ‘h’ to the consonant, for example, bha, pha, jha, kha, gha, and chha.

As started earlier, a number of problems do arise when such revolutionary changes are introduced. The following expected difficulties should be handled effectively:

a. Arabic ‘Ghain’ and ‘Kha’. Not needing separate symbols these sounds can easily be merged with the Punjabi ‘Gha’ and ‘Kha’.

b. Hollow N representing nasal sound of vowels, as in French Vin. While prose does not need it, some arrangement can easily be made to express it in Punjabi poetry.

c. Zh sound (the French j) is non-existent in Punjabi, but in literary text ‘zh’ would suffice. As regards the good old Q, uncomfortable in the Punjabi throat, it should continue to be used in words of Arabic origin.

d. Hard ‘r’ can be expressed by ‘rh’, as is already being done, and should also cover the aspirated sound, where necessary, for example, ‘garh’ as in Khangarh.

But what about the nasalized hard ‘r’? In speech, hard ‘r’ frequently gets nasalized, in the same way as ‘k’ becomes aspirated in the American throat. By adding ‘h’ to ‘n’ we can take care of this quaint Sanskrit sound, as shown in the following line of Muneer Niazi:

Kujh sahunu maranh da shauq vi si

e. Given that both soft and hard alveolars (‘t’ and ‘d’) are used in Punjabi, their representation in the new script would constitute the most retractable, the most baffling problem. As a ready solution one could decide to use ‘t’ and ‘d’ for the soft sounds and ‘ty’ and ‘dy’ for hard sounds. Scholars’ ingenuity and resourcefulness would be tested in this area.

Salvos of criticism would undoubtedly be fired from a number of battlements, especially from the citadels of ‘old guards’ and custodians of national heritage. But once the new script has formally been adopted, the storm is bound to collapse like soapsuds. The school-going new generation, already in love with English, would relish it like chocolate, while their parents and grandparents may grudgingly swallow it as a bitter (but salubrious) pill.

Let us see how Punjabi would look in its new costume. An excerpt from the renowned Punjabi poet Sharif Kunjahi’s comment on Prof Anwar Masood’s poetry is given below:

“Zindagi di taash kheydyan valean vichon eknan nu atkal naal be rang patte dene te aapon rang vale rakh laine oh tazaad e jehrha aj da vatiera ban gaya hoya e, te har koi eh atkal sikkhan pichhe lagga hoya e je kis tarhan shatoutan vich mirchan ralaa ke vech sake.”

And now think of the monumental benefits that would ensure at once. Punjabi journalism, barely existent today, would rub shoulders with the most glittering and influential dailies and periodicals of the world, including electronic journalism. Punjabi, no less than English, would soon become a fit language for teaching Science, Maths, Engineering, Accountancy, etc. Classical Punjabi literature would not take more than a year to get converted into computer databases, and everybody should become familiar with the new script in a few years. (At most, one generations of the population might be disturbed, but the following generations would be perfectly at home with the new script.) Scholars and lexicographers will immediately be required to play their crucial role, aiming to enlarge and enrich Punjabi’s vocabulary, refine and formalize its grammar and usage, develop terminologies in various fields, including acronyms, logograms and abbreviations, and compile dictionaries and other reference books.

This is indeed a simple solution, and hopefully a logical and efficient one. But used as we are, as a nation, to falling for grandiose, high-sounding, and complicated solutions, shouldn’t we find it rather simplistic, quite unimpressive and almost laughable?

Let the gorgeous, voluptuous heroine, decked out in her new, shimmering costume, discover her true self, and fill the nation’s linguistic horizon with the radiance of her conquering beauty.

Re: # 103
Romair, Yaar tu te Jazbaati ho gaya hai, chalo Juphee Payo mere naal.

Yaar, I do like you, even if you had not translated Amrita. I think that you have defended the onslaught quite well being alone.

My comments did not have hidden complement and abuse at the same time. It was really honest compliment. Now that I have read more of your side, I can see why you felt that way. I have had a similar experience when I went to a Mushaira in Hyderabad.

Anyways, my assessment is this:
One thing led to another and then another and so on. We lost the track of our original Majmun somewhere down the road, it is very typical of us Punjabis. We all(I think I can say we), respect your attempt at translating but we got Sunkey when you offered Qurbani of Punjabi(our MaBoli) for the sake of appeasing non Punjabis.
Please try to cross the fence and then look at perspective from across the border, it was definitely sending conflicting signals for die-hard Punjabis.

All: Let us get creative again and start once again fresh. There is a Pakistani man Randhawa something(yes, Randhawa is a Muslim also). This guy was in Patiala few yrs ago and he spoke about same topic, and his passion for Punjabi was great.

Anyways, let us try to be good Punjabis and respect everyone.

Dehliwala #97: ``My Observations about you:
1) You are a nationalistic Pakistani who cares more about Pakistani identity and unification that can be achieved by using URDU.``

Yes, generally true. Though I don`t believe in nationalism. I believe in voulantary union of people, into nations. I am against occupationary or forced unions.........

``2) You love Punjabi to the extent that it is a language that your ancestors spoke, and you would like your children to know it, so that they can also share Heer, Sussy-Punnu, Mirza etc. It is like me learning Spanish or French to increase my resume potential.``

The first part is true. However, my interest in Punjabi is different from my interest in Spanish or French. I am not interested in Spanish, nor French. I am interested in Punjabi (a language far less known that French or Spanish) because it is part of my heritage.....I am also interested in Arabic, because it is part of my religion........

``3) You have not showed any pride in being a Punjabi but a Pakistani who can speak Punjabi as a street language.``

I have no pride in being a Pakistani or a Punjabi or a Canadian, or being anything else. I am against the concept of, ``pride.`` I tend to try to objectively make my comments........I appreciate the Punjabi speaking part of me, because it is a part of my identity, as is the Pakistani part, as is the Canadian part, as is the Islamic part, as is the South Asian part, etc. There is a difference between pride and appreciation.......

``4) You do have some feelings of goodness in your heart, That is why you are on this thread with us.``

Who in the world is, ``us?`` I am not on this thread with any, ``us`` or, ``them.`` I am on this thread, because I enjoy good poetry and because I enjoy things related to the land that I come from, which is the area in Pakistan and its outstreches into the close proximity areas, within the boundaries of India, Afghanistan etc...

``5) Your concept of a Punjabi is someone who is born in Punjab, may or maynot speak Punjabi.``

Yes. That is correct. I think everyone born in Punjab should know Punjabi, since it is their langauge. Not only that, I think they should study it and translate it into other languages. However, I don`t think at a societical level, Punjabi should influence the whole country.

You could say that I am a, ``secular`` linguist. I think Punjabi should be a personal matter in Pakistan, while Urdu is the secular alternative, at the national level, since it is neutral, and thus should be used at the national level.

``For me, Punjabi is a question of survival to preserve our Religious identity.``

This is true. And I, myself, highlighted it in many replies. However, you do not have a right to impose your feelings on others. Others may give priority to other factors. For example, while I am attached to Punjabi, I will never be as attached to it as a Sikh. And that is my perogative..............

``Pakistanis have sacrificed Punjabi on the altar of TNT because they did not know how to retain Punjabi and coexist with others.``

This is not correct, for two reasons. Punjabis, on the Pakistan side, are easily the biggest gainers from the creation of Pakistan. Punjabis now dominate an area, after 2500 years, which is larger than any of their ancestors ever ruled. Infact, their ancestors were always ruled by non-Punjabis. Now Punjabis rule non-Punjabis.

So while Punjabi as a language may be dying in Pakistan, Punjabis, as an ethnicity and culture are far more powerful than they have been in thousands of years........When was the last time, Punjabis dominated the whole Indus civilization? 2500 years ago?

And Pakistan is a lot more than Punjab. It is due to the Pakistani identity of a combination of provinces and economic reasons, that Punjabi language is slowly dying, a relatively voluntary death, in Pakistan. As is, and will, Sindhi and Baluchi and Sariaki and Pushto, in Pakistan, over decades and centuries.

Out of these, Puhsto will survive because it is the national language of Afghanistan. And Punjabi will survive, due to the reasons you (and I) mentioned, i.e. it is the religious langauge of Sikhs - much like Hebrew has survived..........with a tiny number of speakers..........

#103,
How many Indians have written about Pakistani writers.

I think that Pakistanis mostly write in Urdu, and Indians don`t read Urdu. Whenever Pakistanis write in English, Indians buy their books. I have read quite a few Pakistani books in URDU and English. Frankly Urdu vocabulary was beyond me in your books.

India does have a very large base of English writers and they are very popular, that is why Pakistanis read them.

addition to #108: ``So while Punjabi as a language may be dying in Pakistan, Punjabis, as an ethnicity and culture are far more powerful than they have been in thousands of years........When was the last time, Punjabis dominated the whole Indus civilization? 2500 years ago?``

Punjabis also dominate the policies of Pushto speaking Afghanistan. Much of which are decided by Punjabi speaking generals and politicians ruling Pakistan. Punjabi generals, today, command perhaps, the largest Army of local inhabitants, ever put together on the Indus. When was the last time all these things happened?

And when was the last time, in history, that Pushto and Urdu speaking pop stars were singing in Punjabi? This may be a first in the history of the civilization.........Currently every single top pop artist in Pakistan, in any language, has to sing in Punjabi to make it big. This includes Pathans like Rahim Shah and Urdu-speakers like Ali Haider and Sajjad Ali etc. The top selling pop artist in Pakistan is Abrar (who sings almost exclusively in Punjabi), while the top selling female artist is Hadiqa Kayani (who sings 50% or so of her songs in Punjabi)......

So Punjabi, as an institutional and formal govt. language, is on a decline in Pakistan. One could equate it to the decline in Church attendance in Europe. Pakistan is linguistically quite, ``secular,`` now. Local langauges are for personal use and Urdu/English - the neutral alternative, acceptable to all - are at the public level...........

However, Punjabis as the powerful ethnicity/culture may be at their peak. So much so, that the surrouding cultures have started to despise them. Punjabis control their own destiny in Pakistan, as well as the destinies of surrounding civilizations, including some which actually ruled over them historically...........like Afghans.......

So, even when Urdu does become the dominant language, due to higher literacy rates, it will be dominated by ethnic Punjabis...........

domination and creative cultural revival are different. domination is akin to a bad algae spreading over suffocating other life-forms. creative cultural revival produces stories which get translated, music which gets immitated and is apreciated by other life-forms.

i think the new medium of TV is the savior for many indian languages..it proivides an economic incentive for writers and word-smiths .. i mean producing a soap opera alone needs a team of writers to write all those sappy dilogs. then there is news and so on...

Romair, it would be alright for you to paint the ``true`` picture in Pakistan as for language is concerned.....It would be also OK if Punjabi was losing ``really`` due to economics and you state so as an expert(if you were to be one)....truth is it is not...you have put it very well why Punjabi is losing: govt policy decision to keep it away from people in Punjab and promote urdu instead. You say Punjabi elite(in my view Pakistani elite of Punjabi origin) wants to sacrifice Punjabi for the sake of ruling over others. What I object is: first you agree with above policy of suppression of Punjabi language and imperialism over others through language politics....secondly you call it a natural process. You yourself said, if Punjabi were taught in Schools in Punjab it will dominate Pakistani music and culture...so it is not Punjabi language that is dying, it is imperialism of few ruling class people that is putting it to death.

No self respecting Punjabi who takes pride in his language WILL EVER force his language on Sindhis and Pashto speaking or other people.

Amrita Pritam has been translated by numerous people not only into enlgish but in probably another 3 dozen languages of Asia and Europe.