Amrita Pritam

Nice to hear that Amrita Pritam is still alive. I read few of her novels but found her novels as expression of women coming out of their internal inertia and identifying in the sphere equally apart...In this aspect I aliked her Novel.. ``Aik thi Aneeta``

Her mentioned famous poem in which she epitomes the Potent Waris Shah`s Heer is I think reference to the catastrophic incident of Jalia.nwala Bagh’s trajedy. And she has undoubtedly related the righteous love theme of Waris Shah’s era with today’s violence, bloodshed and sadism.

Faiz`s poem ``Rabba Sachiya tou teh Akhiya Se`` poetically seems an elemntal subset of Amrita`s Ode to Warish`s Shah.

...
Our wedding beds are boats, their logs have cast away
Our hanging swing, the Pipal tree has broken in disarray
...

Though the translation is not that moving as the ache, distress is delirious in original Punjabi version.

The translation has kept all words which have enhanced the apparition of tongue for a local reader as one always wonder that “Peepal” , “Bargad”, ``Taali``, ``Neem`` cannot be translated despite these words are contained in other languages but the meanings, times past they carry abruptly changes. These words are more civilizations then name of trees.

Nice to remember Amrita Pritam.Yes,she is alive but presently ,is quite sick and weak.She closed Nagmani because of her ill health.She is living in Delhi with another very good artist Imroz who almost worships her.Her very old friend and next door neighbourer and founder of famous Navyug Publishers (also migrated from west Punjab in 1947),Bhapa Pritam Singh died recently.

Her writings were primarily in Punjabi even after partition and not in Hindi as mentioned by Umair and she got all the awards and honours(which also included Sahitya Academi award and Soviet Land awaard and membership of Raj Sabha).

She has also been involved in preparation of Punjabi text books for schools and colleges.

She has been an inspiration to almost all new punjabi writers in India and has been intrumental in establishing so many modern punjabi writers.

She has also been very popular for her beauty and affairs.Almost every big writer from Punjab of that era had a crush on her,but her own crush on Sahir was also well known.

One of her famous sheyrs:
rall gayi sii eis vich,ik boond teray ishq dii
eisay layi maiN zindgi di saari kuRhittan pii layi

Good to read about Amrita Pritam.
We should also introduce CHOWK to another son of Punjab whose poetry is called by some people as ``Vomited suppressed sexuality`` or ``Kam-Vaasna dian Ultiyan``. He is Shiv Kumar Batalavi. I reckon he is a better poet than Amrita Pritam.

One of his couplet

Aj din chadya, tere rang varga
hai Kirna de vich nasha jiven, kisay cheembay sap de dang varga

Ta

Another of Shiv Batalavi`s couplet

Kee puchh de ho haal fakiran da,
Asan nadiyon vichade neeran da,
Sadha hanj dee junay ayan da,
Sadha dil jalyan dilgeeran da

Taqdir ta apni saukan si
Tadbeeran san tho na hoyian
Na Jhang chutya, na kan patay
Jhund langh gaya, inj heeran da

One more beauty from Shiv

maye ni maye, mere geetan de, naina vich
virhon de radak pavay
adhi adhi rati uth roan moye mitran nu
maye sanu neend na pavay

One more couplet from Shiv. I havenot read any poet who can convey a complect mental state so grace fully

Kagaz de kori, reejh hai
chup chap vekhdi,
shabdan de thal vich bhatakdaa
geetan da kafla

Has any body read heer of Fazal Shah, It is said that his Heer was much better written than Waris Shah and was of much higher litrary value.

My father use to recite one of his coupley which I still remember

Chaiter Chit Achant vich ja lagga
Jhakad jhul paye Achanchet Ranjha
Idhar khet uggay, odar khet hoyi
Teri Heer khay khay Ranjha

Shiv is definitely most read/heard/sung/loved punjabi poet after Waris Shah.He also had a very good voice and nobody has been able sing him the way he himself used to do.Three of his songs in his own voice can be listened at www.apnaorg.com.
Amrita, however,is more than a poetess,in institution in herslf,of Punjabi literature.

Romair:

Thanks for a good translation. Your love for languages is evident - Urdu, English and Punjabi. It wont be long perhaps before you start learning French. Amrtia may have produced a lot of literature but her name will always be associated with ``aj aakhan Waris Shah nooN`` and ``Pinjar``. Both were based on the tragedy of the Partition by which she was personally affected.

I knew Amrita first as a radio broadcaster. She used to produce and anchor a daily Punjabi program on All India Radio and spoke the sweetest Punjabi I have ever heard. She was the one who for ever erased from my mind the notion that Punjabi is a crude/rustic language incapable of sweetness and delicacy.

Shiv Batalvi was, of course, the towering figure of Punjabi literature. The best rendition of his poems that I have heard is by a relatively unknown Toronto singer, Kuldeep Deepak. I first heard Shiv`s poetry from him in the 1970s.

At the height of the Khalistani movement in the 1980s, this is what Amrita said:
Kal Waris Shah nooN vandya see
Aj Shiv dee Vaari aayee ai.

Nice article Mr Umair, I did not know that a Pakistani can also appreciate an Indian writer, anyways, world is full of surprises.
Like someone else said before she was quite a flirt, I guess in order to be a successful poet you have to break many taboos and she chose many Ashiqs as an outlet for popularity. I have heard that Nirlep Kaur and Amrita were known as Flirtous Girls in Delhi in my father`s generation. Just like any new painter or musician in the West, pretty much has to be a Gay or Lesbian to gain popularity. She was in the news in Delhi circle few months ago when she was awarded Padam Vibhushan(not sure of this medal) and it was sent in a Registered Mail and she refused it, when her young Lover Imroz(40 yrs younger Hindu man) raised the noise finally a Secretary from the Govt came and delivered it personally.

On a different token:
I wonder if Punjabi Language has never produced any writer or poets that write anything other than Tragedy or Romance.

We need some writers who could appeal to the next Generation of Punjabi speakers or else Punjabi will not survive.

Unlike other authors, Amrita Pritam has refused to visit her ancestral land. Probably the memories are too painful. She doesn`t want to remove the `khrind` from still seething wounds of partition.

Her companion Imroz is also from a sikh household. He cut his hair because his relatives with whom he stayed couldn`t take care of his matted and unkempt hair.

Khushwant Singh (?????) wrote that this poem is the only distinguished writing of Amrita. Other works are mediocre. I`ve read other poems and they aren`t great. It seems this came from her heart and soul`s cry. I`ve also read her other stories, they are dark but good.

All in All, she is the Heer of the Punjabi partition literature


Dilliwaalya,

Tainu main kinni waari kiah baee apna moonh band rakhya kar. Adh jal gagri chhalkat jaye.

Chowk Staff,

thanks for publishing the poem. I had sent a picture of Amrita Pritam as well. I can send it again, if you would like to put it next to the translation.

Also, could I request you to, if possible, interleave, the punjabi and english verses, one after the other. It makes it easier to associate them with one another.............placing the full translation at the end, doesn`t have much of an impact.........

I knew next to nothing about Amrita Pritam, until I read this poem. Then I started my research. I have read nothing else by her (other than seen the movie Pinjar), yet. However, this poem, by itself, is enough to make a career.............

This poem is a classic, by any account. Hands down, no contest. It has to be one of the best written in any language (at least in the 3 1/2 I speak). It ranks up there with the best works of Faiz, Iqbal etc. and maybe even Ghalib and Shakespeare.

This is an extremely difficult poem to understand, even for hardcore Punjabi speakers. It usually takes me six to seven hours to write any (little amount) of poetry that I have written in English. It takes about a month to translate one of Ghalib`s difficult works. I spent six months translating this poem. In between I gave up twice. The first few and the last few verses are very easy. The middle six to eight are impossible to understand. One average, it took one month per verse.

It also took over 50 emails across India Pakistan and Canada. A vast search on the Internet and Urdu bazaar lahore and Pindi, and a trip by a friend to India. During this time, I did not meet a single Punjabi speaker, in India or Pakistan, who understood the whole poem and all the words, as they are intended to be used.....Everyone understood little pieces.....Also, I was unable to find this poem in Urdu script, anywhere.....So I am not even sure if the Punjabi wordings are accurate.......though quite a few people have confirmed that they are...........

There is a lot of symbolism with the Punjabi village culture in here. Most of which people do not realize until they get deep into the terms. I would explain some of it here, but I think if people really want to understand it, they should go through the struggles of translating them................

For example, it took me two months to figure out what may be being applied here:

gale`oN tutt`e geet phir, takaleon tuttii tand,
trinjanoN tuttiaaN saheliaaN, chaRakhRre ghuukar band

sane sej de beriaaN, luddaN dittiaaN rohr,
sane daliaan peengh aj, piplaaN dittii toR

P.S. after going through the above process, I have come to realize that the Punjabi language, is on its last legs (at least in Pakistan).........It is now just a spoken slang street language........Hardly any of the Punjabi speakers understand much of the classical stuff, including those who are considered experts............

Each word has a meaning and feeling that is deep and cannot be explained, let alone translated. It is impossible for non Punjabis to feel and be moved with such expressions. The themes and underlying meanings are poigant and soul stirring.

I do not have any formal Punjabi education. Most I know about Punjabi is thru word of mouth and some reading I`ve done. Yet, I do understand most of the poem and its meanings. It is unfortunate and trajedy that elders were unable to translate or tell you the meaning of these lines. Most of them are easy and simple even for an illiterate.

Punjabis who shun their such rich heritage should commit suicide by jumping into urine filled puddle.

Umair Raja:

A great article.

When Amrita Preetam`s name is mentioned, Sahir`s name automatically comes to mind. It is like Manto and Ismet although they were not romantically linked; Amrita and Sahir were. They would have formed a great couple; one writing great Urdu poetry (Meri mehboob kaheen aur mila kar mujh ko, Taj Mahal) and the other writing gems in Punjabi. It was somewhat strange that the writer did not bring Sahir into his narrative.As far as the Ode to Waris Shah is concerned, it is probably all time great; the Taj Mahal of Punjabi language.

Without Sahir in the story, `An Ode to waris Shah` would probably have been a more appropriate title of the article. ``Ajj aakhan Waris Shah noon`` is great in whatever language you translate it, provided the translation is good. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

#13,
I am glad that you researched so much for this poem. She was very traumatised by the oppression in 1947 in Jhelum. Also, the words are written in a Punjabi that Sikh`s speak that is why it can be complicated for Non-Sikhs to understand some of the folk lores behind it such as charka, peeng in Sawan etc.

This was probably the best Punjabi poem ever by a woman.

She was obviously impressed by Sahir Ludhinavi, but I don`t think that there was anything more than just interest in poetry. She may have had other flings.

She is very frail these days living in Patel Nagar Area of Delhi, she can rarely recognize people. I have driven past her place few times and seen this character Imroz from distance, he is a self styled new ager, who liked to draw attention to himself by naming himself Imroz(Parsi for new year or something)???

Umair-Raja:

Your dedication & devotion is commendable. At least it brings out divergent interests and also helps bring out innate desires among readers.

But!

The tyrranical times that we live in. As if the tyranny of translation itself was not enough, now (yeah Yeah because of these english-keyboard `facilities`) it is the translation/transformation of the SCRIPT, & whatever is lost & gained there@ , and that too through the master`s domain.

(@ hUm ney iss ishque mein( angraizee kay) kyaa khoyaa hai kyaa payaa hai--Faiz)

This `facility` ( internet & fast & easy access to information) not only helps spreading knowledge & information but also spreads the flipside as well with the same `efficency`.
The irony is that human-eyes has gooten trained to accept printed and typed word as so `authentic`. Today newspapers & magazines , urdu, are compounding mistakes ( not errors)
which were called katib`s errors & were much easier to spot because of the `pictogram` phenomena. Today the printed word looks so authoritative & innocent at the same time.

Your piece gives me this food of thought. Maybe I`m just rambling. Now that KauRRa has posted the one in the `original` script [ the one it was written in by Amrita--it could have been in arabic/urdu script] , can somebody come to our rescue and clarify the following:

I picked this one because it was mentioned in an earlier post.

[ Now I am not well read in any of the laguages or literature generally discussed on Chowk. Nevertheless, I do not ming putting myself on line by doing `guesswork`, & learning from somebody in the process . So I try here below:]

gale`oN* tutt`e geet phir, takaleon^ tuttii tand,
trinjanoN tuttiaaN saheliaaN, chaRakhRre# ghuukar band

Could it not be * Throats , instead of streets.
^ This of course is the Taklaa- of the spinning wheel. --the spool snapped

# Could this be the Water-pulley on the well which went silent or it could even be the ghugoo sound of the pUN-chUkkee , waterdriven-flourmill. I say this because mention of CHarrkhaa twice sound odd to me, even in Darshan Singhs translation--which is so oft quoted .

Waiting for Umair Raja!

I think she translated her work in simple Punjabi also(especially this poem), can someone please research that?
Anyways, I am impressed with Umer knowing so much about Sikh poetry.

Re: # 13Romair,
Punjabi language is ever developing in at least Indian Punjab.After Amrita,there are scores of very good poets,novelists and story writers which are world class.Amrita nad Mohan Singh were regarded as parents of modern punjabi poetry,but punjabi poetry has marched a long way since then.Even ghazal which was thought to be possible to be written only in persian and urdu is being written very well in punjabi.Deepak Jaitoyi,Dr. Jagtar,Ulfat Bajwa,Surjeet Patar and many others are considered ``ustads`` of punjabi ghazal.On the free verse side,likes of Pash(marhoom),Lal Singh Dil,Amarjit Chandan have created mile stones.The only sinf which has almost died is Kissa Kaav and also the popular stagi kavita to a large extent.
Gurdial Singh`s novels(MaRhi da Deeva,Parsaa,Anhoye etc.)can compete with any novels in any language and have been actually translated in many languages.
Similarly in short story,Kulwant singh Virk,Santokh Singh Dhir,Prem Prakash,Mohan Bhandari,Waryam Sandhu,Prem Gorkhi are some of the names whom all punjabis should be proud of.
Official apathy has been a problem in India as well but people have fought for the language whereas in west Punjab there are very few who are speaking bout the mother tongue.There is no mass movement to force the govt. to make Punjabi the official language.Formal education in Punjabi language upto Matric level is must in Indian Punjab to enter into a govt.job.

Dehliwala,
Amrita had a florid affair with Sahir and it was mostly from her side;Sahir being more schizoid kind of person.He did not even get married.Read her autobiography(Raseedi Ticket) and Imroz is a Sikh(his original name is Inderjeet Sigh).He changed his name to incorporate Amrita`s name in part into his new name.
This poem is in simple Punjabi,what translation are you talking about?This was in our course book at Matric level in seventees.This is in fact one of her simlest poems,written in traditional style.She experimented with free verse etc. i her later age ang went on becoming more and more abstract.
Her poetry is just punjabi poetry and not sikh poetry.She has never let religeon come near her writings and as always been known as a lovable human being,though bit eccentric at times.
Echo,
You are right about ``galeon``--it means ``from throat``

LokRaj/Dullab?or another Giyani.

Please check the article and compare with the original I posted below. There seems to be a few mistakes. In the original, it states ``Galeon`` (throat), in the above it states ``Galiyon`` (streets). And there are some other simmilar `mistakes`.

Romair,

A commendable effort. I`ve seen a better translation. I will post it as soon and if I find it.

Kiya baat ey Raja Saab tohadi.

Re: # 10

I think I am going to remember this verse for the rest of my life

Kal Waris Shah nooN vandya see
Aj Shiv dee Vaari aayee ai.

Thanks for sharing it

It is difficult to pick out a clear translation for a word, unless one has the text available in Urdu or Gurmukhi script. Galee`on can mean three things, depeding on original spelling:

- It can mean streets, hence songs being sung in the street
- It can mean throat (which is actually a different word), in which case it means songs coming out of the throat
- It can also mean clay pots or piggy banks. And geet, in this case would mean small stone/pebble (as in geeti).

The first two have the same sort of meaning i.e. songs being silenced. The third would imply clay pots being broken by pebbles.........I compared notes with some other individuals in India who had translated this, and we felt streets was the most appropriate...........

Kaurasach: Do you have the Urdu text. No one (hardly any one) from Pakistan can read Gurrmukhi........

Kaurasach,
Yes there are some mistakes,but they are minor and can pass,seeing the overall effort and the spirit behind it.
to point a few,just for improvement
1. DardmandaaN da dardi is not narrator but one who feels their pain
2.bela is jungle/forest and not fields
3.trinjan is not play ground--it is a common place where girls used to spin cotton their charkhas.While spinning,they would usually singe folk songs as well,to which Amrita has referred as ``galeon tuttay geet``
4 LagaaN keelay lok-munH bus phir dung hi dung.... means the ``the venom(biting)spread like infection from person to person and within no time whole of punjab turned blue with its effect``
5. Sane sej de berian.... in this stanza, Luddan who was Heer`s naakhuda,has thrown away the boat along with the famous bed of heer which was always in that boat and the peepal tree itself breaks the swing along with its own branches.

This is in no way criticism of the good translation.

Romair I am looking for it, I don`t know where I stored it. I`ve the English translation of it as well. Till then........


CLICK HERE to read short stories by Amrita Pritam (English Translation).


Amrita and Imroz during earlier days.

lokraj,

I thought ``Bela`` was the strip of land next to the river bank. I may be mistaken. if not, what is that land called in Punjabi?

I assumbed the word `beli` (friend) came from that root. i.e. the person who you spent in Bela....simmilar to `haani` (same age group).

#10 & #23
Dost ji: Will comment on the subject later but quickly want to point out that

kall Waris Shah nu wandeya si
ajj Shiv Kumar di waari ay
pehlay zakham ki bhull gaye, (.... not sure about this line - paraphrased)
jo naweyaN di pher tiyari ay

was not by Amrita. It is by Surjit Patar. I would strongly recommend to Umair to read Surjit Patar to get more comtemporary picture of Punjabi poetry. Also he has written extensively on the subject of violence in Punjab in 80`s.

DullaBhatti

Can you translate those lines by Surjit Pattar please?

Thanks

Theo, I will post the whole Surjit Patar poem later in the evening.

I am certain that Drlokraj is correct about Galeon, the way it is written in Gurmukhi, and also as I had heard from my elders.
I think it means

Galeyon Tuttay Geet comments:
Throats are seperated from Geet, means killed or beheaded etc
Then Takla was seperated from Tunda
Place where Girlfriends spin was separted and Charkhari is silent

The reason I think that ``throats are separted is because of the words that follow it``
``Tutay and Tuttee``, indicates ``former and later`` style of writing.

My Punjabi is really rusty, but I do remember that Chand Alankars are written that way.
It is probably called ``Anupras Alankar``.

Drlokraj: How many affairs did she have then? Sahir was not a love affair but more of infatuation. I was born in very late sixties, but I do remember Amrita and Nirlep Kaur`s name being spoken of in same category.

DullaBhatti

Thanks. I dont understand Punjabi that well and am interested in learning more about its literature.

Waris Shah was divided yesterday (refering to 1947 - Hindu/Sikh - Muslim divide)
now it seems it is Shiv Kumar`s turn (to be divided - Hindu-Sikh divide)
Have we forgotten the previous wounds
that we are preparing to inflict new ones.

delhiwala

Why should it be called Sikh poetry? Isnt it poetry for people of all religions of Punjabi background and non Punjabis like me who want to appreciate it?

I think poetry and art should not be communalised like that.

#24,
You are taking it off a very different tangent now by considering Geet as Geeti(small pebbles).

Charkha is almost dead in India but still some woman around Chandigarh area villages are into Charkha spinning and Phulkari.

dullahbhatti

Thanks. I have heard about Shiv Kumar Batalvi. He cut quite a striking figure of the doomed romantic poet didnt he?

Thanks for the translation again.

Re: # 34
Why would it be communal if I refer to it as Sikh?
It can be a Sikh Poem and shared by everyone, that is how I see it.

Waris and Bullay shah were Muslim but I enjoy them as Sikh.
That`s all!

I wish we all lived in an Ideal world where we all shared universal mankind as one.
But reality makes it such.

Surjeet Patar is definitely good but after Amrita-Mohan-Shiv,Paash is probably the best poet of punjabi.
Surjeet Patar`s best ghazal is ``kuchh kihaa taaN hanhera jarega kiweiN
Chupp rihaa taa shamadaan kee kehn gay``
and his best poem is ``laggi nazar punjab nu,ehdi nazar utaaro``
latter can be listened to at www.apnaorg.com in his own voice along with 4 other poems/ghazals.

drlokraj/kaurasach: thanks for the info.......

I went through ten to fifteen discussions of this sort, before doing the final translation. Poetry is too deep and one keeps discovering things. Some of the meaning is deliberately lost in the translation, because one has to keep the balance of the poem..........Although I try to keep as close as I can, to the specific translation of the word and the meaning of the verses (quite difficult to do).........

1. DardmandaaN da dardi is not narrator but one who feels their pain

This is correct. A deliberate change of meaning from my side. An accurate translation would be, ``Some who feels the pain of the pained.``

2. bela is jungle/forest and not fields

Didn`t know that. I thought it was field.......

3. trinjan is not play ground--it is a common place where girls used to spin cotton their charkhas.While spinning,they would usually singe folk songs as well,to which Amrita has referred as ``galeon tuttay geet``

Yes this is correct. I translated it as playgroup. Not play ground. A playgroup of young girlfriends......In Punjabi poetry, trinjan is refered to as the first thing that breaks, due to some sort of tragedy.....This is primarily due to family feuds etc.....A trinjan of young girls is used to depict innocence and love, and its breaking is used as an indication of the appearance of feuds, class differences, etc. Marriage is also considered a cause of breaking a trinjan, since marriage for women in Punjabi soceity is also considered a tragedy or sorts (as depcited by various marriage Punjabi songs, and the crying of the girl and her mother as she leaves the house)...........

4. LagaaN keelay lok-munH bus phir dung hi dung

This can have multiple meanings. Of which the one you have written was my original choice. Then I changed it. Again having the original Urdu text would help, since it is difficult to translate from Roman Punjabi......

5. Sane sej de berian.... in this stanza, Luddan who was Heer`s naakhuda,has thrown away the boat along with the famous bed of heer which was always in that boat and

I searched for the translation for Luddan for three weeks. Including posting it on Chowk. No one could give any meaning that fit. Finally, I found logs. Which would imply that the bed and the boat, both made from logs, were, themselves, caste away by the logs that created them........That kind of fits..........However, Luddan, as the name of Heer`s naakhuda seems to fits perfectly.......This is probably why I could never find a fitting meaning of Luddan as a punjabi word......

``the peepal tree itself breaks the swing along with its own branches.``

This is very insightful. It took me a long time to figure out this theme......The same theme applies to, ``trakleon tutti tand,`` as well as ``Luddan dittian rohr``

dullabhatti:
Thanks. I had read it attributed (wrongly, I suppose) to Amrita.

drlokraj:

I think that the father of Punjabi Ghazal was Parkash Saathi. His ghazal, ``JadoN meri arthi uttha ke chalan gay`` was beautiful sung by Asa Singh Mastana.

Romair:

Punjabi language will live and prosper, at least in Indian Punjab, because people they are quite devoted to it. All languages are dynamic and evolve: no one today will understand Chaucer`s English or even many words in Shakespeare`s plays.

Umair:
I am still not sure, if this urdu-script one is a repeat from the gurmukhi one which was originaly
a repeat from shahmukhi one. Roman Urdu, Panjabi htchet-jobs notwithstanding.

Anyway this template is here to do further reasearch on this.

[ I must emphasise that even some of our most `respected` scholars are themselves pretty sloppy & careless--for most of them literature-study is a paid-job and a stepping stone in their public-relationing enterprise]

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Gulliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf/Leem/Yyal/Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small O Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Holy Macro guys,
I apologise for posting this multiple times, my Laptop was slow in responding(or perhaps the chowk`s server).

Sain Dilliwale: we understand..you were having waDDA ``O`` while writing this post.:)

echoboom #41: Thanks......Where did you find this..............

The wording seems correct......There are minor differences...........Galee`on in the Urdu text implies streets..........

Dost-mittar #40 I think Punjabi will survive in India. Specifically because of Sikhs. It is their religion`s language. Based on my experience Indian Punjabi speakers, specifically Sikhs, are far more interested in Punjabi than anyone in Pakistan. The non-Sikhs may be interested in it, from India, because they are a small group, trying to protect a language......

In Pakistan, 66% of the population speaks Punjabi or Sariaki. However, I have a feeling the language is on a steep decline. The only thing keeping it alive is the low literacy rate..........

- Punjabi in Pakistan has no economic value. So no one, including all Punjabis, wants their children to pursue it educationally. Punjabis want their kids studying English or Urdu......

- Punjabi has lost its social status. It is now considered the language of the illierate or poor. If you see Pakistani dramas, all the poor people or servants are shown speaking Punjabi. The rich Punjabis speak English in public, the middle class speaks Urdu. And those who cannot speak either, speak Punjabi..........The rich and middle class only speak Punjabi inside their homes.......if that

- Punjabi has no academic base in Pakistan. No one gets a degree in it. It is not taught in any school at any level. And there are hardly any universities that teach it........One can barely find a dictionary......

- Urdu is now spoken from one end of Pakistan to the other. The educated first generation of Punjabi-speakers, after paritition (my parent`s generation) spoke Punjabi as their first language. The educated second generation of Punjabi-speakers (my generation) speaks Urdu as their first language, and Punjabi as their second or third language. The generation after this may not even know Punjabi. My nieces and nephews don`t know it..........

The moment the literacy rate goes above, say 80%, everyone in Pakistan Punjab will be speaking Urdu. I would say another 50 years or so, and Punjabi, which is not a written langauge in Pakistan any more, will not be a spoken language either..........

Having said that, it has made a small revival of sorts, in literature. Very small. It is cool to speak some Punjabi and dress like a Punjabi landlord at weddings. And it has made a big revival in music, with even Pathan and Urdu-speaking singers singing in Punjabi regularly. And Punjabi film industry is the largest in Pakistan...........However, I don`t think that will last, once everyone is literate and learns Ghalib and Mir in school...........And has no clue who Bulleh Shah and Amrita Pritam are/were...........

#49

Romair`s post needs very careful reading. This is a perfect example of reverse logic.

According to him Punjabi rocks where there is free enterprize e.g. music, movies and social events. The places where Govt has no to minimal interference.

On the other hand Punjabi is losing because it is not taught in schools (just a coincident), it is not taught in universities (another coincident), TV dramas show poor illiterate characters speak Punjabi while educated and rich speak Urdu as if there is no Punjabi speakers who are rich or educated. Inspite of the fact only people to ever earn Nobel Prize from the region were Punjabis.

So Punjabi is OK where there is no interference from state but is portrayed as inferior and stupid and given no opportunity where Govt controls.

Irrational Romairian logic thinks that is very natural and fair manner.
The day Punjabi gets even 25% fair chance it deserves in Pakistan it will kick ass.

These are the same people who talk tall about fairness, freedom and right of survival to others while they see no organized consipracy and plan of action to massacre their own language, culture, heritage and self esteem.

romair: don`t show your crocodile tears to us by presenting people half assed translations of Punjabi poetry. We know where you stand. You stand hand in hand with butchers in the slaughter house to kill Punjabi and see know wrong in it ..in fact you think it all happening very naturally and clap at moments..cheerleading.

In moments of despair and frustration I spit on this qaum of na`khid people.

Romair,
Language has nothing to do with the religeon,otherwise every muslim of the world should have been speaking arabic.
It is an old saying that to destroy a nation,destroy their language& that is what has been done to Punjab systematically.This was started by the british and still continues on both sides of the border.Yes it is much more on western side mainly because people are much more confused in their religeous/regional/ethnic identities and are not trying to preserve their mother tongue,because the notion that punjabi is language of the sikh religeon,has been instilled deep into their minds.

Dost-mittar,
Prakash Sathi came on the scene of Punjabi ghazal much later.Their were already three schools of punjabi ghazal by then represented by Sadhu Singh Hamdard,Deepak Jaitoyi and Thakur Bhaarti.The first ever ghazal in Punjabi was in Kissa Saiful Maluk by MiaN Muhammad Baksh.

Thanks Lokraj...I was going to mention Mian Mohammad Bakhash as probably first famous writer who wrote punjabi ghazal, although his shairs are not classified as such in Saiful Maluk, but people have identified some. They are mostly written in simple behars like faylun faylun etc.

Hamdard on the other hand has identified 2 more writers more than 100 years before Mohammad Bakhash....Shah Muraad and Sayadat Yaar Khan Rangeen.

Shah Murad (1702-xxxx)

tudh jeha na jahane saare, yaara ajab tooN
wekhan gaye suraj taare, yaara ajab tooN

kad laTak laTak laTkeindi gallhaN sohniyaN,
te noor jhamak jhamkaare, yaara ajab tooN.

jo aakheya sabh sunneya, dil de dharke kann,
ke Shah Muraad pukaare, yaara ajab tooN.

Yaar Khan Rangeen (1757-1835)

kehRi bhehRi kho paye hai saade uss dildaar wich
daru peeNda naal ghairaN de hai oh bazaar wich.



wekh tainu asiN te bhullde nahi,
sanu kiyoN ji sy visaarda haiN.

asaN jee jaan sadke kar ghatti aa,
hikk namoona eh saade piyar da hai


Mian Mohammad Bakhash (1830-1904)

raah takeindeyaN akhiN pakkiyaN, kann paighaam suniday
tooN farigh te maiN afsosiN, har din rainn langhaya

raat dina tush pucheya naahiN, dard-mandaN da heela
keekur raat dihaaRay guzran ishaq jihna dukh layea

dukh kaziye mere sun ke, har ikk da dill saRda
tudh na lagga saik Mohammad maiN tann ishaq jalaya

Romair: you guys could have been proud of this heritage instead of trying to put it down covertly or overtly.

Drlokraj #51: ``Yes it is much more on western side mainly because people are much more confused in their religeous/regional/ethnic identities and are not trying to preserve their mother tongue,because the notion that punjabi is language of the sikh religeon,has been instilled deep into their minds.``

It has nothing to do with religion, or ethnic identities. Nor confusion, for that matter. In fact, the concept of language in Pakistan is quite well sorted out, and everyone has generally agreed on Urdu and English. In fact, it is only the elitist, due to political reasons, who are fighting for local languages. Due to this, one can go to any part of Pakistan, and communicate with anyone else. Urdu, is thus, a major unifying factor across Pakistan, which will probably lead to the birth of a unified civilization at some point..........

No one in Pakistan considers Punjabi a Sikh language. In fact, they consider it a Pakistani langauge, since most of the world`s Punjabi speakers live in Pakistan..........And literally dominate the country...........Which is why Punjabi`s feel they don`t need to, ``protect`` their langauge or ethnicity. Unlike in India, where Punjabis are a small minority.......

The decline in Punjabi is a simple result of natural events. It is not intentional. Whenever various langauges and cultures end up in one country, some one is going to gain and someone is going to lose. It is only natural.......

As an example, I think Baluchistan is going to be flooded by Punjabi labourers and engineers etc. the moment Gwadar starts resulting in a job market in Baluchistan. This may kill the whole Baluchi culture and make it Punjabi.........

The key factors deciding all this are economics. People want to get into languages that get them economically ahead. Only those individuals, who have their economics taken care of, then, out of nostalgia turn back to their native languages..........and translate Punjabi poetry....

If the national language of Pakistan had been declared Punjabi, in 1947, it would have dominated all of Pakistan and spread. However, Urdu was declared the national language, and English the language of govt. Statistically, Punjabi should have been the national language. However, the smaller provices would not have accepted Punjabi. However they accepte Urdu, which was a language alien to the areas of Pakistan. Since everyone in the country has generally accepted that and Urdu is spoken from Kashmir to Sind........

If you want a job you have to know Urdu. If you want a really good job, you have to know English. Knowing Punjabi is not going to get you a single job. So these are the two languages taught in school, from grade 1 to university. Sind is the only province which teaches its language of Sindhi in school. So every literate Punjabi`s educational foundation is based on Urdu and English. Thus every Punjabi wants his kids studying these two languages, and speaking them..........

This has turned Punjabi into a spoken language, since hardly anything is written in it, now....The reason it remains a spoken language is because much of the population hasn`t gone to school, and thus has not been affected by Urdu and English. As they go to school, they will learn Urdu. Their next generation will learn Urdu and English from day one in school...And may never learn Punjabi...So on and so forth........This is a common phenomenon, seen in USA also. The second generation of so many desis speaks broken or no Urdu or Hindi or Tamil etc........And by the third generation, all these langauges are forgotten...........

I think all local languages should be taught as optional electives, from day 1. But, in the end, it is survival of the fittest...........Punjabi music has survived because it is good..........Punjabi film industry has survived, because in Pakistan, only the relatively poor go to theatres to watch movies.......And they speak only the local languages.......

Some samples from Amrita Pritam.

Rabb khair kare mere vehRay di
ke jiss thaaN Raanjhan dera keeta
othey dhamak sunidi KheRay di.....

---

charan(feet) tere suchay, shoNTh mere jooThay, ajj chhohnge
yaaN charn mere jooThay, yaaN hoNTh mere suchay ajj hoange

---

channaN taareyaN di raat sanu mili jaana ho!

sanjhi dharti de geet, sanjhay paaniyaN di preet,
Heer Ranjhay di sauNH, laaj rakhni je Oh......

---

ve maiN tiRkay ghaRe da paani
kall takk nahi rehna...

iss paani de kann tehraaye
treh de hoThaN vangooN
O mere Thanday ghutt diya mitra!
keh de jo kujh kehna...

---

ratti mehndi naal labaiRi
soohe saloo wich lapeTi
peelay sonay naal valeTi,
maas di boTi, kukh di beTi
wah wah daani vaah waah daatay, kidday karm kamaan
jehRi jholi takkan, oho hi parvaan

heera kade na kooye(bolay), gaoo(cow) kade na bolay, kanneyaN(girl) be -...

---

chaana di fulkaari topa kaun bhare...

apnay valloN saari baat mukaa baiThay
haale vi ikk hauka teri gall kare.

---

Re: # 50
The loss of Punjabi language is not due to Govt of pakistan but most Punjabis accept Urdu as a superior Language than Punjabi.
Also all other ethinic groups have accepted Urdu as language of communication. Only Sindhi`s feel affinity to their language and on and average they are sticking to it. The Sindhi`s hate ``punjabi`` people as there is wide spread illusion that ``all `` their problems are due to Oppressive Punjabi Domination. Most illusions are powerful and have long life compared to truth.
The Punjabis are very practical people. They are not too adamant to be loosers they will bend but not break. As you know there is always danger to Pakistan from Sindhi nationalist and they are not very rational people. Till Sindi famaly of Bhutto feel they can return to power in Islambad they will not play ``sindhi`` exploitation card. Till Bhutto is alive Sindhi nationalist have no chance.
Punjabis have sacraficed their language but have kept nation united. If Punjabi was national language instead of Urdu West pakistan would have disintegrated like united Pakistan at time of mr. QAMA Jinnah. Just like Bengali speaker departed Sindhi would have departed for language but Urdu is not ``Punjabi``.
It is prudent of Punjabi`s they are doing and burying language nonchalantly for greater purpose of keeping pakistan. As pragmatic people sacrafice is not in vain but then they can Rule Pakistan. Also with almost all major cities of Sindh being urdu dominated MQM and Punjabis keep pakistan united.
For Punjabi`s language is not sacraed cow.

A People without a Language


A people without Language

Eric Cyprian

It is a unique phenomenon that the educated Punjabi is ashamed of
his own mother tongue and thinks that it is the language of the
uncultured. He therefore, takes pride in the fact that he is
illiterate in his mother tongue, though he may speak it fluently and
use it for special purposes. Urban educated Punjabis use their
mother tongue for informal conversation, especially in the exchange
of obscenities with intimate friends in stag parties or in all male
company. They are almost totally ignorant of the riches in their
mother tongue and many of them have heard of some of the classics in
Punjabis but have the haziest idea of the content of well-known
poems. They may be familiar with some Punjabi songs and a few folk
songs made popular by films and TV and radio artists. Till recently
Punjabi language and literature were not taught at any stage in the
Punjab. About two decades ago with great difficulty the Punjab
University was persuaded to start post graduate studies in Punjabi
language and literature, and there is a steady stream of students
who have completed their MA studies in Punjabi and have gone out to
teach Punjabi to Intermediate and BA students in some colleges.
Teachers in schools and colleges do not encourage students to take
up the formal study of Punjabi. In rural areas teachers and
principals of some colleges exert their utmost influence on students
desirous of taking up the formal study of Punjabi and usually
succeed in dissuading them from taking up Punjabi as one of their
elective subjects. The few lecturers appointed in colleges in the
Punjab are treated as untouchables by their colleagues and made to
feel inferior to lecturers in other subjects.


One reason for the alienation of the Punjabi educated people from
their mother tongue is the flexibility of the upper classes to
collaborate with the enemy. When the British came the opportunists
flocked to bend their knees to the new rulers and made enormous
gains thereby. Later when Pakistan was established it was the
Punjabi elite who in alliance with the Urdu speaking that controlled
the machinery of the state and also manipulated the levers of
financial and economic power. They thus formed the ruling class, but
for obvious reasons did not wish to be recognized for what they
were. They therefore, disowned the Punjabi language and identified
the ideology of Pakistan with Urdu, Islam, and the two-nation
theory. Now that ethnic grouping has become a reality which cannot
be swept under the carpet, and when the Pathans, Baloch, Sindhi and
Urdu speaking mahajirs have asserted their identities and claimed
their share in the governance of the country, the Punjabis per force
will also have to recognize themselves for what they are and be
content with their own part of Pakistan. This recognition has just
started and in a few years time Punjabis will be as proud of their
culture and language as Sindhis, Pathans and Baloch are of their
language and culture.


To trace the decline of the Punjabi language and literature in our
Punjab we have to delve deep into our history to find the causes for
this decline. It is surprising that during the Sikh rule in the
Punjab the court language remained Persian and all legal and
government documents, firmans, etc were in the language used by the
Moguls in their state business. But Punjabi flourished both among
the Sikhs and the Muslims because of the fact that for the Sikhs
their sacred books were in Punjabi language written in the Gurmukhi
script while for the Muslims there was a body of mystic poetry by
the great Sufi saints of Punjab which was the means for the
illiterate masses to get acquainted with their religion.


For the Sikhs the Granth Sahib was the sacred book and hence
literacy in Punjabi was a religious duty. In the case of the Muslims
since the bulk of the Sufi mystic poetry was committed to memory and
recited by a large number of bards, poets, and entertainers,
literacy was not all that necessary. Apart from the poetry there was
the large body of religious oratory of the zakirs of Multan who
displayed their art during the Muharram when they moved millions to
tears with their masterly rhetorical renderings of the tragic epic
of the Karbala. For these reasons literacy in Punjabi was not
widespread among Muslims.


Throughout history Punjab has been on the route followed by invading
armies from the times of Alexander the Great, and even earlier. It
therefore became part of Punjabi culture to resist these invaders
even if they were Muslims. There exists a vast body of resistance
poetry in the shape of dholas and vars, (forms of narrative poetry)
which chronicle the brave deeds of the people of the Punjab when
they opposed the invaders and waged their own form of guerilla
warfare against the alien armies. These poems were part of the rich
folk literature in Punjabi which has fortunately been recorded on
tapes and preserved by the National Institute of Folk Heritage. The
field workers and research workers of the Institute have done their
job, but as yet scholars and folklorists have not as yet made use of
these treasures to piece together the history of the people of
Punjab.


The foreigners were quick to recognize the political power of the
Punjabi language and once they gained control over the province they
determined to deprive the people of the Punjab of this weapon. The
British administrators brought with them a whole team of lower level
administrators from those provinces where their rule had been
consolidated and from where the British had recruited and trained a
large number of clerks, lower level police officers, patwaris etc.
Most of these were Urdu speaking men from the United Provinces of
Agra and Oudh. It will be recalled that the British had earlier in
Calcutta established Fort William College, an institution for the
development of Urdu as the language of the part of the
administrators that had public dealings, in thanas, in revenue
matters and in the army. The government functionaries that came from
outside the Punjab to assist the British rule over the newly
conquered province were skilled in Urdu and hence it was adopted as
the language of administration at the public dealing level and in
education. In this way Urdu was established in the Punjab and
continues to dominate the cities. It is said that Urdu is the
language of sophisticated people while Punjabi is crude. It is also
alleged that Urdu is the refined form of Punjabi which is the crude
form of Urdu. The refinements of Urdu and the crudeness of Punjabi
are myths. The fact is that the difference between the two languages
is one that arises from the differences between the people who speak
them. The Urdu speaking are indeed sophisticated to the point of
being decadent, while Punjabi is crude to the point of being
straightforward and blunt and therefore honest and direct. Urdu is a
courtly language which is meticulous in making distinctions of
status whereas Punjabi is democratic and treats a man as a man. To a
Punjabi, Urdu appears to be cliche ridden, emasculated and an effete
language whereas Punjabi is a manly, honest plain practical speech
which can be as ornate, colorful, as sweet and as mellifluous as a
situation may require. It can be forceful and emphatic and when
necessary it can be as melodious as the cooing of a dove.


There is now a growing consciousness in the cities among educated
people that Punjabi language should be developed and used at all
levels in our public life as well as in our intellectual life. There
was therefore a sharp reaction to the announcement of the Punjab
chief minister that in future Urdu would be the official language in
government offices. There were protests against this decision in
many cities in the Punjab and the champions of Punjabis demanded
that Punjabi be the official language in the Punjab and that it
should immediately be made the medium of instruction in primary
education which will make Punjabis at least literate in their mother
tongue. This is important because once the people of the Punjab
become literate in their mother tongue they will discover the vast
treasure of classical Punjabi poetry, the ocean of folk poetry which
is at present an altogether undiscovered country to them. Once they
begin to read Waris Shah`s Heer Ranjha, of Mian Mohammed Buksh`s
Saiful Maluk, the poetry of Bulleh Shah, Shah Hussain, Sultan Bahoo,
Ghulam Farid to name only a few of the works which at present are
closed books to most educated Punjabis. The second advantage of this
would be to abolish the artificial barrier that now exists between
the common people of the Punjab and the educated elite. And thirdly
we all would be able to read and understand contemporary Punjabi
literature, both prose and poetry. It might then be possible to
start a newspaper and publish books in Punjabi for educational
purposes as well as for the general reader. Many of our mass
literacy programs fail because we teach the illiterate adult not his
mother tongue but a foreign language. If a mass adult literacy
program were to make usr of Punjabi it would be an instant success,
because the learner would not have the double task of learning a
script well as learning a new language.

Romair...zara gauhr kar..Amrita ki kehndi ay

Rabb khair kare mere vehRay di
ke jiss thaaN Raanjhan dera keeta
othey dhamak sunidi KheRay di.....

---

Rabba KheReyaN nu saade galloN laah
eh te saadi Heer de gall wich
paa baiThay ne phaah....

be Rabba ehna KheReyaN nu saade galloN laah...

uttoN te miThRay bol buleeNday,
te ander zehri ghaah

-db

Re: # 54
dullabhatti,
``tirkay ghaRay da paani`` is by Shiv, not Amrita

Lokraj ji, ainnay suwakhtay uTh behnday O? kamaal ay

I guess ``tiRkay ghaRay da paani, kall takk nai rehna..`` is some old line that many people have ryhmed on...This particular stanza is from ``Kaghaz te Kanvass`` collection of AP. So Shiv might have a similar one too.

dullabhatti #various: Sardarji, lagda tuwaday baraan baj gaye naen........teehaan putran aaley ho.......apni naeen tay unnah di izzat di kuj sharam karo........kee gawachiaan gawan wargoon fazool shor paa ray ho..........

kuj mariann gallan samajhnay di koshish karo..........

Dear Dost Mittar & Lokraj ji

What you guys would say about Guru Gobind Singh ji as gazal writer particularly

Mittar piyare nu, sadha haal muridan da kehna

Can this shabad be classified as ghazal?

Thanks

Ashwani

Dear Dost Mittar & Lokraj ji

What you guys would say about Guru Gobind Singh ji as gazal writer particularly

Mittar piyare nu, sadha haal muridan da kehna

Can this shabad be classified as ghazal?

Thanks

Ashwani

#60 Romair, sir taaN tuhaada phiriya hoiya jehRay haqmaaN diyaaN loombaR chaalaN nu sahi keh rahay ho tay maaN boli nu bachaon di bajaaye,usdi durgati nu kudarti vartaara duss rahay ho.Sharam tuhaanu karni chahidi ae.Feroze Deen Sharaf nay theek hi kiha si
puchhi Sharaf na kisay vi baat meri
vay maiN boli haaN unhaaN PunjabiyaaN di

tay maiN apnay valloN vi joR diyaaN

Asaaday kol si dushman day har ik vaar da uttar
jadoN keeta hai aapniyaaN hi keeta hai tabaah saanu

arstoo,

Guru Gobind Singh ji`s shabad can not vi called ghazal technically

Umair # 60

Thank you very much for your translation efforts and introducing me to my own culture :). I grew up in the Hindi belt after the partition and therefore missed Punjabi literature. However as you noted earlier, as a Sikh, I learned Punjabi at home since that’s our mother tongue.

My two cents on the differences between DullaBhatti (DB) and your positions:

You are absolutely right in stating what’s happening with Punjabi in Pakistan and why it’s happening. However, DB and many other Indian Punjabis feel that shame is really upon the Punjabi elite who are measuring their honor in terms of material wealth and not in their own history, language and culture.

It will be hard to argue that language is the foundation to know your own literature which in turn leads to learning history (your own version and not written from some one else’s perspective). This then will instill pride in your own authentic culture, learn from past mistakes and will also bring you closer to the common man. In fact one can say that foundation of democracy rests upon participation of ALL (including poor native language speakers who also happen to be in majority) and not just smart but opportunistic elite.

My apologies for stating the obvious and did not mean to lecture anyone.

Regards.

Drlokraj,
How can you say that language is independent of Religion?
If SGGS was not written in Gurumukhi script, you and I would be speaking Hindi,most likely.
Similarly, Pakistan was made for Muslims and Koran`s language is Arabic, Urdu comes from Arabic, except some semantics, that is why in Pakistan Punjabi is side language though spoken by mainstream. Eventually Pakistan`s goal is to become totally Islamicnot Punjabiyat.

I agree with Mr Rmair that Punjabi will be dead in Pakistan in next 30-40 years, it will end up something like ``Hariyanvi in Hariyana `` spoken by people but their language is Hindi, down the road it will also fade.

Mr Romair: By calling DullBhatti ``Sardarji Bara BuJja wala words`` what exactly are you implying?
I am a Sardarji and I think that Dulla was out of place to attack you, but by calling racial stereotype names you have come down to the same level. I don`t get it why do you even bother to write about Amrita in first place(she is also a Sikh).

Arstoo,

Dasam Granth`s authors are disputed. Guru Gobind Singh ji had 52 poets in his darbar. It could be that they penned some of the works. Many sikhs do not consider these texts including ``mitar piyaray nu haal mureedaan da kehna........`` part of the Granth. Nonetheless, it is part of the sikh heritage.

Punjabi language has sufferred immensely in the past century. Ultimately, Punjabis should be held responsible for their own sufferings.

Urdu was introduced by British because there was no developed language in Punjab. The court language was artificially Persian. This was one of Ranjit Singh`s shortcomings and stupidity. Had he developed Punjabi the court and official language, Urdu need not been introduced. British had to bring it in as more or less a necessity.

Urdu was used in official circles. Punjabi still flourished. Partition and the politics before it was the hardest blow to Punjabi. Religious and political interests attacked Punjabi; Muslims opting for Urdu and Hindus for Hindi. They were naive and fools in associating with two alien languages.

NRIs and Punjabis are seeing a renaissance in Punjabi heritage.

The illiteracy amongst W Punjabis is the reason Punjabi has survived in much the authentic form. The not so literate few E Punjabis are the last bastion of Punjabi. The urban Punjabis on both sides speak Hindized or Urduized Punjabi.

Dilliwaalay,

Tu Prozac chubb kay naa likhiaa kar.

English is the language of billions of people - most are non Christians. What has language to do with religion? Most South Asians are better versed in English than native languages.

Using your naive and foolish `logic`, there should be no French, German, etc. just one lingo for all Chrstns.

Dumb!

Kaurya,
Tu Eveye Pungay na Paiya Kur. Baaj Aaja.

English is a World Language because it was thrust over by Anglophones because of their dominance of the World scene for the last 500 odd years or so.
FYI, Christianities original language was Aramaic, precursor to Hebrew and Arabic, it is a forgotten language now.

But in our part of the World where religion is the main driving force, specially for Pakistanis, Punjabi is not a language to be proud of for them. Like romair had said there is no incentive to speak Punjabi in Pakistan. At least in Indian Punjab you have some theoretic chance of getting a job if you know Punjabi. Interestingly enough because literacy rate is very low in W Punjab, they have preserved the original form of spoken Punjabi. Not many Sikhs would use words like ``Dadha, MainDa, Wangar`` etc.

If Sikhs did not have Gurumukhi what would be our lingual fate then? Ever wonder.

Background of Punjabi as a Language:
Earliest recorded words were written in 4th Century by Surushtra(an Ayurvedic practitioner).
Thanesar, near Panipat has inscriptions that sound like Punjabi.
Next trace of Punjabi-usage is found in Han Sangs travelougues.
Earliest modern day Punjabi words are found in Sheikh Farid`s poems(in SGGS)
In the times of Razia Sultana, Punjabi is also recorded as a Language spoken by Gujjars and Jatts.
Guru Nanak`s Asa di War, clearly uses the Punjabi words of that time and gives historical perspective of that time.

In 16th/17th century, Fanatic Muslims wanted to Persianize India, they superimposed Farsi. Even in Ranjit Singh`s court official language was Farsi. Ranjit was definitely a Secular personality, and he went overboard by having Farsi as the official language.

Anyways, Except in East Punjab, status of Punjabi is definitely declining unless Punjabis can overlook their differences and do something about it.

If we take Chowk as a small microcosm of Desis, it is very clear that our differences of Religion and Culture exceeds our love of MaBoli.

Sad....

Delhiwala,just to add to what kaura has already said,language of Guru Granth Sahib is difficult to define.Yes,its script is Gurmukhi,but the language is mostly braj bhaasha and is more closer to hindi rather punjabi.You know SGGS has works of so many saints/bhakts from all over the hindi belt of India.Guru Gobind Singh`s writings are either in braj or in persian.By your notion,all south Indians who are not hindi speaking are not hindus because hindi is the language of hindus??
This ideology of akalis and fundamental hindus was responsible for second division of punjab when lot of hindu majority areas became part of haryana or himachal just because hindus of those areas refused to accept punjabi as their mother tongue(and bloody bastards uttered these words in punjabi itself during 1961 census).Even today,the ratio in punjab is 52:48(sikhs:hindus).If you add the number of punjabis on the other side of the border as well,then sikhs are in minority,so how can you associate religeon and language?

Re: # 63
Drlokraj,
what shabad are you referring to?

Romair#49

Your analysis is correct superficially, but for deeper causes, you have to look more carefully at what db/dr/kaura are saying. Punjabi suffered not because it is an inferior language, but because it became a victim of the two-nation theory in Punjab, where Urdu got identified with Muslims and Hindi with Hindus. It is true that Hindu and Muslim elite after the Partition showed a disdain for their mother tongue. I believe that the situation has changed among the younger HIndus in Punjab who seem to be making a healthy contribution to the Punjabi arts and literature.

As for Pakistan, the Punjbai elite continue to treat their mother tongue with disdain. Even people like you who seem to show a healthy curiousity for the language seem to contemplate its demise with equanimity, if not outright welcome it, to pave the way for an Urdu-based civilization. If without any economic incentives, Sindhis can fight for their language, Pathans for Pushto, Baluchis for Bruhi (?) and Bengalis were prepared to secede for their language, why not Punjabis? The same lack of self esteem which prevents Pakistani elite from taking ownership of Mohenjodoro and (re)naming their cities as Islamabad and Faislabad, instead of Porus Nagar or Warasnagri, also seems to prevent them from taking ownership of their language in preference to the language of what you now call the Gangetic civilization.

Excuse me Sir,
South Indian languages are derived from Indo Aryan semantic tree that is based on Sanskrit(language of Hindus).

Not every cultural entity is same, Europeans had a distinct culture and they became Christian while retaining their
old values.
During the last 600 yrs thanks to renaissance they have made tremendous progress in socio-civic sense.
Languages are not a life threatening factor for them, unlike us.

Sikhs/Pakistanis are mostly converts from some other religion during last 300-400 years. They are more fanatic in preserving their new identities and disasccociating themselves from older roots.

For e.g a Pakistan`s official stand is to somehow prove that India/Hindus never happened to Pakistanis and they have always lived as sovereign state.(read their official websites, there is no mention of Sikhs/Hindus anywhere).

For Sikhs Gurmukhi is theri main script and that clearly connects them to Punjabi, hence Punjabi as a Mother toungue.
Yes, it is true that SGGS has verses in Braj, Sanskrit, Hindi, Farsi, Arabic, Marathi etc.
However the main theme is Punjabi using phrases and vocabulary of other languages prevalent at that time.

I can agree with you that my statement is not applicable globally, but it is cent-per-cent true for North Indians.
Othewise, why would Punjabi speaking Hindus define their mother toungue as Hindi in 50ies.

Also, my friend you are wrong about Akalis causing a break of Punjab in India.
Punjabi Hindus in 1950ies had become more Hindus, whereas in United Punjab majority of the Hindus would goto Gurudwaras and actually live a life as a Sikh. After partition, this relationship of Hindu/Sikh amity was broken by revival of Hindus coming from rest of the India. This led to Punjabi Hindus defining themselves as Hindi speaking. Akalis had no choice but to resort to what they did. Otherwise, Indira Gandhi would have clearly pushed the policy of Religous demarcations and due to weight of Hindi speaking people in (Punjab, Haryana, Himachal and parts of UP), Sikhs would have lost their voice.
Sikh fate would have been no different than Jains. FYI, Sikhs are not 52% but 60% in E Punjab.

Let us see what you have to say......

drlokraj:

Thanks for the information about the early ghazal writers in Punjabi.

Delhiwalla has a point if you replace Punjabi with Gurmukhi script. I think it is fair to say that but for SGGS being in the Gurmukhi script, Sikhs may not have stood up for the Punjabi language as they did, even though most of SGGS is in Braj Bhasha. While it is fashionable for everyone, including myself, to blame the Hindus for abandoning their language (by saying , as you hinted, ``hamari mattar basha Hindi hai``), the fact is that they were confused between the script and language. If Akalis had at any time proposed that people were free to use either Gurmukhi or Devnagri script (something suggested at one time, I believe, by Bhagat Singh), the situation might have been different. I do not agree with Romair`s prediction of demise of Punjabi in Pakistan, but it would almost certainly prosper in the Persian script with which Pakistanis are more familiar.

dost mittar #72 ``Punjabi suffered not because it is an inferior language, but because it became a victim of the two-nation theory in Punjab, where Urdu got identified with Muslims and Hindi with Hindus``

Bullshit. As usual you can`t resist putting your pro-India spin on everything. Punjabi Hindus had already started to disown their mother tongue in favour of Hindu-Urdu during the late 19th century LONG before the TNT and at a time when Punjabi Muslims were still producing poets and writers of the calibre of Mian Mohammed Baksh and Khwaja Ghulam Farid, the greatest Punjabi poet of them all. During the British era Punjabi Muslims used Urdu only has a matter of practicallity - it was an official language imposed by the colonial power. Punjabi Muslims only started identifying with Urdu AFTER the trauma of the partition of Punjab which I don`t need to remind you was done at the behest of Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs.

``The same lack of self esteem which prevents Pakistani elite from taking ownership of Mohenjodoro and (re)naming their cities as Islamabad and Faislabad, instead of Porus Nagar or Warasnagri [...]

Islamabad is a good two hour drive on very modern roads from Porus` hometown. What sense does it make to name it after him?

Delhiwala,no use digging into the roots,lets talk about ground realities.
I did not say that akalis alone were responsible for second division of punjab.Their mistake was accepting the division based on that false census.They were glad to accept it just because of the sikh majority in the new state.

Re: # 75
#75 you are very polar personality.
Drlokraj: eNu Koi Nuqsa Tajweej Kar deyo.

Trauma of Parition was caused by Hindus and Sikhs, Wah bhai Wah! Bahut Khoob!
Who asked for Pakistan at first place? Was it Hindus and Sikhs?

I can understand that Hindus and Sikhs were a participant in Violence, but to say that Muslims were living with Flowers in their hands inncocently is an insult to all those innocents who died in 1947.

If you don`t trust us, then I suggest that you talk with any older surviving Englishman or American who lived in Punjab during 1947. They will tell you their neutral accounts as they saw it.

If the ``sambar dosa eating`` Tamils and ``bhaat eating`` Bengalis can sacrifice and stand up for their language and culture wit