Amrita Pritam

Waris Shah was divided yesterday (refering to 1947 - Hindu/Sikh - Muslim divide)
now it seems it is Shiv Kumar`s turn (to be divided - Hindu-Sikh divide)
Have we forgotten the previous wounds
that we are preparing to inflict new ones.

Re: # 34
Why would it be communal if I refer to it as Sikh?
It can be a Sikh Poem and shared by everyone, that is how I see it.

Waris and Bullay shah were Muslim but I enjoy them as Sikh.
That`s all!

I wish we all lived in an Ideal world where we all shared universal mankind as one.
But reality makes it such.

delhiwala

Why should it be called Sikh poetry? Isnt it poetry for people of all religions of Punjabi background and non Punjabis like me who want to appreciate it?

I think poetry and art should not be communalised like that.

#24,
You are taking it off a very different tangent now by considering Geet as Geeti(small pebbles).

Charkha is almost dead in India but still some woman around Chandigarh area villages are into Charkha spinning and Phulkari.

dullahbhatti

Thanks. I have heard about Shiv Kumar Batalvi. He cut quite a striking figure of the doomed romantic poet didnt he?

Thanks for the translation again.

Surjeet Patar is definitely good but after Amrita-Mohan-Shiv,Paash is probably the best poet of punjabi.
Surjeet Patar`s best ghazal is ``kuchh kihaa taaN hanhera jarega kiweiN
Chupp rihaa taa shamadaan kee kehn gay``
and his best poem is ``laggi nazar punjab nu,ehdi nazar utaaro``
latter can be listened to at www.apnaorg.com in his own voice along with 4 other poems/ghazals.

drlokraj/kaurasach: thanks for the info.......

I went through ten to fifteen discussions of this sort, before doing the final translation. Poetry is too deep and one keeps discovering things. Some of the meaning is deliberately lost in the translation, because one has to keep the balance of the poem..........Although I try to keep as close as I can, to the specific translation of the word and the meaning of the verses (quite difficult to do).........

1. DardmandaaN da dardi is not narrator but one who feels their pain

This is correct. A deliberate change of meaning from my side. An accurate translation would be, ``Some who feels the pain of the pained.``

2. bela is jungle/forest and not fields

Didn`t know that. I thought it was field.......

3. trinjan is not play ground--it is a common place where girls used to spin cotton their charkhas.While spinning,they would usually singe folk songs as well,to which Amrita has referred as ``galeon tuttay geet``

Yes this is correct. I translated it as playgroup. Not play ground. A playgroup of young girlfriends......In Punjabi poetry, trinjan is refered to as the first thing that breaks, due to some sort of tragedy.....This is primarily due to family feuds etc.....A trinjan of young girls is used to depict innocence and love, and its breaking is used as an indication of the appearance of feuds, class differences, etc. Marriage is also considered a cause of breaking a trinjan, since marriage for women in Punjabi soceity is also considered a tragedy or sorts (as depcited by various marriage Punjabi songs, and the crying of the girl and her mother as she leaves the house)...........

4. LagaaN keelay lok-munH bus phir dung hi dung

This can have multiple meanings. Of which the one you have written was my original choice. Then I changed it. Again having the original Urdu text would help, since it is difficult to translate from Roman Punjabi......

5. Sane sej de berian.... in this stanza, Luddan who was Heer`s naakhuda,has thrown away the boat along with the famous bed of heer which was always in that boat and

I searched for the translation for Luddan for three weeks. Including posting it on Chowk. No one could give any meaning that fit. Finally, I found logs. Which would imply that the bed and the boat, both made from logs, were, themselves, caste away by the logs that created them........That kind of fits..........However, Luddan, as the name of Heer`s naakhuda seems to fits perfectly.......This is probably why I could never find a fitting meaning of Luddan as a punjabi word......

``the peepal tree itself breaks the swing along with its own branches.``

This is very insightful. It took me a long time to figure out this theme......The same theme applies to, ``trakleon tutti tand,`` as well as ``Luddan dittian rohr``

dullabhatti:
Thanks. I had read it attributed (wrongly, I suppose) to Amrita.

drlokraj:

I think that the father of Punjabi Ghazal was Parkash Saathi. His ghazal, ``JadoN meri arthi uttha ke chalan gay`` was beautiful sung by Asa Singh Mastana.

Romair:

Punjabi language will live and prosper, at least in Indian Punjab, because people they are quite devoted to it. All languages are dynamic and evolve: no one today will understand Chaucer`s English or even many words in Shakespeare`s plays.

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Re: # 41
I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Galliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf+Leem+Yyal+Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small `O` Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

I think part of the problem is that Urdu letters don`t translate one-to-one to Gurumukhi script.
Tenth line from the bottom in Urdu ``Gulliyon`` written in Urdu with Gaaf/Leem/Yyal/Wow.
In Gurumukhi, same would be written with Gugga+Lulla+Yyya+a small O Matra.

Urdu word can be double meaning whereas Gurumukhi would be straight forward for this particular word. This also explains why my father`s generation say Punjabi words like Pakistanis do, there is no distinction between Chota ``O`` and Wadda ````OW``, sihari, lihari etc.

If I were to write this word in Urdu I would use the ``OW`` sound as produced by ALif and the postscript of ``~`` rhymes with Office.

Anyways, Umar Sahib you did great job attempting this task of translation.

Echoboom: There are people on our side who seriously believe in uniting the Punjabis by bridging the Language gap, while respecting each others soverignity. There are people in Punjab and Delhi(like me) who can read both the scripts to understand each other better.

Holy Macro guys,
I apologise for posting this multiple times, my Laptop was slow in responding(or perhaps the chowk`s server).

Umair:
I am still not sure, if this urdu-script one is a repeat from the gurmukhi one which was originaly
a repeat from shahmukhi one. Roman Urdu, Panjabi htchet-jobs notwithstanding.

Anyway this template is here to do further reasearch on this.

[ I must emphasise that even some of our most `respected` scholars are themselves pretty sloppy & careless--for most of them literature-study is a paid-job and a stepping stone in their public-relationing enterprise]

Sain Dilliwale: we understand..you were having waDDA ``O`` while writing this post.:)

echoboom #41: Thanks......Where did you find this..............

The wording seems correct......There are minor differences...........Galee`on in the Urdu text implies streets..........