Amrita Pritam

Dost-mittar #40 I think Punjabi will survive in India. Specifically because of Sikhs. It is their religion`s language. Based on my experience Indian Punjabi speakers, specifically Sikhs, are far more interested in Punjabi than anyone in Pakistan. The non-Sikhs may be interested in it, from India, because they are a small group, trying to protect a language......

In Pakistan, 66% of the population speaks Punjabi or Sariaki. However, I have a feeling the language is on a steep decline. The only thing keeping it alive is the low literacy rate..........

- Punjabi in Pakistan has no economic value. So no one, including all Punjabis, wants their children to pursue it educationally. Punjabis want their kids studying English or Urdu......

- Punjabi has lost its social status. It is now considered the language of the illierate or poor. If you see Pakistani dramas, all the poor people or servants are shown speaking Punjabi. The rich Punjabis speak English in public, the middle class speaks Urdu. And those who cannot speak either, speak Punjabi..........The rich and middle class only speak Punjabi inside their homes.......if that

- Punjabi has no academic base in Pakistan. No one gets a degree in it. It is not taught in any school at any level. And there are hardly any universities that teach it........One can barely find a dictionary......

- Urdu is now spoken from one end of Pakistan to the other. The educated first generation of Punjabi-speakers, after paritition (my parent`s generation) spoke Punjabi as their first language. The educated second generation of Punjabi-speakers (my generation) speaks Urdu as their first language, and Punjabi as their second or third language. The generation after this may not even know Punjabi. My nieces and nephews don`t know it..........

The moment the literacy rate goes above, say 80%, everyone in Pakistan Punjab will be speaking Urdu. I would say another 50 years or so, and Punjabi, which is not a written langauge in Pakistan any more, will not be a spoken language either..........

Having said that, it has made a small revival of sorts, in literature. Very small. It is cool to speak some Punjabi and dress like a Punjabi landlord at weddings. And it has made a big revival in music, with even Pathan and Urdu-speaking singers singing in Punjabi regularly. And Punjabi film industry is the largest in Pakistan...........However, I don`t think that will last, once everyone is literate and learns Ghalib and Mir in school...........And has no clue who Bulleh Shah and Amrita Pritam are/were...........

Re: # 50
The loss of Punjabi language is not due to Govt of pakistan but most Punjabis accept Urdu as a superior Language than Punjabi.
Also all other ethinic groups have accepted Urdu as language of communication. Only Sindhi`s feel affinity to their language and on and average they are sticking to it. The Sindhi`s hate ``punjabi`` people as there is wide spread illusion that ``all `` their problems are due to Oppressive Punjabi Domination. Most illusions are powerful and have long life compared to truth.
The Punjabis are very practical people. They are not too adamant to be loosers they will bend but not break. As you know there is always danger to Pakistan from Sindhi nationalist and they are not very rational people. Till Sindi famaly of Bhutto feel they can return to power in Islambad they will not play ``sindhi`` exploitation card. Till Bhutto is alive Sindhi nationalist have no chance.
Punjabis have sacraficed their language but have kept nation united. If Punjabi was national language instead of Urdu West pakistan would have disintegrated like united Pakistan at time of mr. QAMA Jinnah. Just like Bengali speaker departed Sindhi would have departed for language but Urdu is not ``Punjabi``.
It is prudent of Punjabi`s they are doing and burying language nonchalantly for greater purpose of keeping pakistan. As pragmatic people sacrafice is not in vain but then they can Rule Pakistan. Also with almost all major cities of Sindh being urdu dominated MQM and Punjabis keep pakistan united.
For Punjabi`s language is not sacraed cow.

#49

Romair`s post needs very careful reading. This is a perfect example of reverse logic.

According to him Punjabi rocks where there is free enterprize e.g. music, movies and social events. The places where Govt has no to minimal interference.

On the other hand Punjabi is losing because it is not taught in schools (just a coincident), it is not taught in universities (another coincident), TV dramas show poor illiterate characters speak Punjabi while educated and rich speak Urdu as if there is no Punjabi speakers who are rich or educated. Inspite of the fact only people to ever earn Nobel Prize from the region were Punjabis.

So Punjabi is OK where there is no interference from state but is portrayed as inferior and stupid and given no opportunity where Govt controls.

Irrational Romairian logic thinks that is very natural and fair manner.
The day Punjabi gets even 25% fair chance it deserves in Pakistan it will kick ass.

These are the same people who talk tall about fairness, freedom and right of survival to others while they see no organized consipracy and plan of action to massacre their own language, culture, heritage and self esteem.

romair: don`t show your crocodile tears to us by presenting people half assed translations of Punjabi poetry. We know where you stand. You stand hand in hand with butchers in the slaughter house to kill Punjabi and see know wrong in it ..in fact you think it all happening very naturally and clap at moments..cheerleading.

In moments of despair and frustration I spit on this qaum of na`khid people.

Romair,
Language has nothing to do with the religeon,otherwise every muslim of the world should have been speaking arabic.
It is an old saying that to destroy a nation,destroy their language& that is what has been done to Punjab systematically.This was started by the british and still continues on both sides of the border.Yes it is much more on western side mainly because people are much more confused in their religeous/regional/ethnic identities and are not trying to preserve their mother tongue,because the notion that punjabi is language of the sikh religeon,has been instilled deep into their minds.

Dost-mittar,
Prakash Sathi came on the scene of Punjabi ghazal much later.Their were already three schools of punjabi ghazal by then represented by Sadhu Singh Hamdard,Deepak Jaitoyi and Thakur Bhaarti.The first ever ghazal in Punjabi was in Kissa Saiful Maluk by MiaN Muhammad Baksh.

Thanks Lokraj...I was going to mention Mian Mohammad Bakhash as probably first famous writer who wrote punjabi ghazal, although his shairs are not classified as such in Saiful Maluk, but people have identified some. They are mostly written in simple behars like faylun faylun etc.

Hamdard on the other hand has identified 2 more writers more than 100 years before Mohammad Bakhash....Shah Muraad and Sayadat Yaar Khan Rangeen.

Shah Murad (1702-xxxx)

tudh jeha na jahane saare, yaara ajab tooN
wekhan gaye suraj taare, yaara ajab tooN

kad laTak laTak laTkeindi gallhaN sohniyaN,
te noor jhamak jhamkaare, yaara ajab tooN.

jo aakheya sabh sunneya, dil de dharke kann,
ke Shah Muraad pukaare, yaara ajab tooN.

Yaar Khan Rangeen (1757-1835)

kehRi bhehRi kho paye hai saade uss dildaar wich
daru peeNda naal ghairaN de hai oh bazaar wich.



wekh tainu asiN te bhullde nahi,
sanu kiyoN ji sy visaarda haiN.

asaN jee jaan sadke kar ghatti aa,
hikk namoona eh saade piyar da hai


Mian Mohammad Bakhash (1830-1904)

raah takeindeyaN akhiN pakkiyaN, kann paighaam suniday
tooN farigh te maiN afsosiN, har din rainn langhaya

raat dina tush pucheya naahiN, dard-mandaN da heela
keekur raat dihaaRay guzran ishaq jihna dukh layea

dukh kaziye mere sun ke, har ikk da dill saRda
tudh na lagga saik Mohammad maiN tann ishaq jalaya

Romair: you guys could have been proud of this heritage instead of trying to put it down covertly or overtly.

Drlokraj #51: ``Yes it is much more on western side mainly because people are much more confused in their religeous/regional/ethnic identities and are not trying to preserve their mother tongue,because the notion that punjabi is language of the sikh religeon,has been instilled deep into their minds.``

It has nothing to do with religion, or ethnic identities. Nor confusion, for that matter. In fact, the concept of language in Pakistan is quite well sorted out, and everyone has generally agreed on Urdu and English. In fact, it is only the elitist, due to political reasons, who are fighting for local languages. Due to this, one can go to any part of Pakistan, and communicate with anyone else. Urdu, is thus, a major unifying factor across Pakistan, which will probably lead to the birth of a unified civilization at some point..........

No one in Pakistan considers Punjabi a Sikh language. In fact, they consider it a Pakistani langauge, since most of the world`s Punjabi speakers live in Pakistan..........And literally dominate the country...........Which is why Punjabi`s feel they don`t need to, ``protect`` their langauge or ethnicity. Unlike in India, where Punjabis are a small minority.......

The decline in Punjabi is a simple result of natural events. It is not intentional. Whenever various langauges and cultures end up in one country, some one is going to gain and someone is going to lose. It is only natural.......

As an example, I think Baluchistan is going to be flooded by Punjabi labourers and engineers etc. the moment Gwadar starts resulting in a job market in Baluchistan. This may kill the whole Baluchi culture and make it Punjabi.........

The key factors deciding all this are economics. People want to get into languages that get them economically ahead. Only those individuals, who have their economics taken care of, then, out of nostalgia turn back to their native languages..........and translate Punjabi poetry....

If the national language of Pakistan had been declared Punjabi, in 1947, it would have dominated all of Pakistan and spread. However, Urdu was declared the national language, and English the language of govt. Statistically, Punjabi should have been the national language. However, the smaller provices would not have accepted Punjabi. However they accepte Urdu, which was a language alien to the areas of Pakistan. Since everyone in the country has generally accepted that and Urdu is spoken from Kashmir to Sind........

If you want a job you have to know Urdu. If you want a really good job, you have to know English. Knowing Punjabi is not going to get you a single job. So these are the two languages taught in school, from grade 1 to university. Sind is the only province which teaches its language of Sindhi in school. So every literate Punjabi`s educational foundation is based on Urdu and English. Thus every Punjabi wants his kids studying these two languages, and speaking them..........

This has turned Punjabi into a spoken language, since hardly anything is written in it, now....The reason it remains a spoken language is because much of the population hasn`t gone to school, and thus has not been affected by Urdu and English. As they go to school, they will learn Urdu. Their next generation will learn Urdu and English from day one in school...And may never learn Punjabi...So on and so forth........This is a common phenomenon, seen in USA also. The second generation of so many desis speaks broken or no Urdu or Hindi or Tamil etc........And by the third generation, all these langauges are forgotten...........

I think all local languages should be taught as optional electives, from day 1. But, in the end, it is survival of the fittest...........Punjabi music has survived because it is good..........Punjabi film industry has survived, because in Pakistan, only the relatively poor go to theatres to watch movies.......And they speak only the local languages.......

Re: # 54
dullabhatti,
``tirkay ghaRay da paani`` is by Shiv, not Amrita

Some samples from Amrita Pritam.

Rabb khair kare mere vehRay di
ke jiss thaaN Raanjhan dera keeta
othey dhamak sunidi KheRay di.....

---

charan(feet) tere suchay, shoNTh mere jooThay, ajj chhohnge
yaaN charn mere jooThay, yaaN hoNTh mere suchay ajj hoange

---

channaN taareyaN di raat sanu mili jaana ho!

sanjhi dharti de geet, sanjhay paaniyaN di preet,
Heer Ranjhay di sauNH, laaj rakhni je Oh......

---

ve maiN tiRkay ghaRe da paani
kall takk nahi rehna...

iss paani de kann tehraaye
treh de hoThaN vangooN
O mere Thanday ghutt diya mitra!
keh de jo kujh kehna...

---

ratti mehndi naal labaiRi
soohe saloo wich lapeTi
peelay sonay naal valeTi,
maas di boTi, kukh di beTi
wah wah daani vaah waah daatay, kidday karm kamaan
jehRi jholi takkan, oho hi parvaan

heera kade na kooye(bolay), gaoo(cow) kade na bolay, kanneyaN(girl) be -...

---

chaana di fulkaari topa kaun bhare...

apnay valloN saari baat mukaa baiThay
haale vi ikk hauka teri gall kare.

---

A People without a Language


A people without Language

Eric Cyprian

It is a unique phenomenon that the educated Punjabi is ashamed of
his own mother tongue and thinks that it is the language of the
uncultured. He therefore, takes pride in the fact that he is
illiterate in his mother tongue, though he may speak it fluently and
use it for special purposes. Urban educated Punjabis use their
mother tongue for informal conversation, especially in the exchange
of obscenities with intimate friends in stag parties or in all male
company. They are almost totally ignorant of the riches in their
mother tongue and many of them have heard of some of the classics in
Punjabis but have the haziest idea of the content of well-known
poems. They may be familiar with some Punjabi songs and a few folk
songs made popular by films and TV and radio artists. Till recently
Punjabi language and literature were not taught at any stage in the
Punjab. About two decades ago with great difficulty the Punjab
University was persuaded to start post graduate studies in Punjabi
language and literature, and there is a steady stream of students
who have completed their MA studies in Punjabi and have gone out to
teach Punjabi to Intermediate and BA students in some colleges.
Teachers in schools and colleges do not encourage students to take
up the formal study of Punjabi. In rural areas teachers and
principals of some colleges exert their utmost influence on students
desirous of taking up the formal study of Punjabi and usually
succeed in dissuading them from taking up Punjabi as one of their
elective subjects. The few lecturers appointed in colleges in the
Punjab are treated as untouchables by their colleagues and made to
feel inferior to lecturers in other subjects.


One reason for the alienation of the Punjabi educated people from
their mother tongue is the flexibility of the upper classes to
collaborate with the enemy. When the British came the opportunists
flocked to bend their knees to the new rulers and made enormous
gains thereby. Later when Pakistan was established it was the
Punjabi elite who in alliance with the Urdu speaking that controlled
the machinery of the state and also manipulated the levers of
financial and economic power. They thus formed the ruling class, but
for obvious reasons did not wish to be recognized for what they
were. They therefore, disowned the Punjabi language and identified
the ideology of Pakistan with Urdu, Islam, and the two-nation
theory. Now that ethnic grouping has become a reality which cannot
be swept under the carpet, and when the Pathans, Baloch, Sindhi and
Urdu speaking mahajirs have asserted their identities and claimed
their share in the governance of the country, the Punjabis per force
will also have to recognize themselves for what they are and be
content with their own part of Pakistan. This recognition has just
started and in a few years time Punjabis will be as proud of their
culture and language as Sindhis, Pathans and Baloch are of their
language and culture.


To trace the decline of the Punjabi language and literature in our
Punjab we have to delve deep into our history to find the causes for
this decline. It is surprising that during the Sikh rule in the
Punjab the court language remained Persian and all legal and
government documents, firmans, etc were in the language used by the
Moguls in their state business. But Punjabi flourished both among
the Sikhs and the Muslims because of the fact that for the Sikhs
their sacred books were in Punjabi language written in the Gurmukhi
script while for the Muslims there was a body of mystic poetry by
the great Sufi saints of Punjab which was the means for the
illiterate masses to get acquainted with their religion.


For the Sikhs the Granth Sahib was the sacred book and hence
literacy in Punjabi was a religious duty. In the case of the Muslims
since the bulk of the Sufi mystic poetry was committed to memory and
recited by a large number of bards, poets, and entertainers,
literacy was not all that necessary. Apart from the poetry there was
the large body of religious oratory of the zakirs of Multan who
displayed their art during the Muharram when they moved millions to
tears with their masterly rhetorical renderings of the tragic epic
of the Karbala. For these reasons literacy in Punjabi was not
widespread among Muslims.


Throughout history Punjab has been on the route followed by invading
armies from the times of Alexander the Great, and even earlier. It
therefore became part of Punjabi culture to resist these invaders
even if they were Muslims. There exists a vast body of resistance
poetry in the shape of dholas and vars, (forms of narrative poetry)
which chronicle the brave deeds of the people of the Punjab when
they opposed the invaders and waged their own form of guerilla
warfare against the alien armies. These poems were part of the rich
folk literature in Punjabi which has fortunately been recorded on
tapes and preserved by the National Institute of Folk Heritage. The
field workers and research workers of the Institute have done their
job, but as yet scholars and folklorists have not as yet made use of
these treasures to piece together the history of the people of
Punjab.


The foreigners were quick to recognize the political power of the
Punjabi language and once they gained control over the province they
determined to deprive the people of the Punjab of this weapon. The
British administrators brought with them a whole team of lower level
administrators from those provinces where their rule had been
consolidated and from where the British had recruited and trained a
large number of clerks, lower level police officers, patwaris etc.
Most of these were Urdu speaking men from the United Provinces of
Agra and Oudh. It will be recalled that the British had earlier in
Calcutta established Fort William College, an institution for the
development of Urdu as the language of the part of the
administrators that had public dealings, in thanas, in revenue
matters and in the army. The government functionaries that came from
outside the Punjab to assist the British rule over the newly
conquered province were skilled in Urdu and hence it was adopted as
the language of administration at the public dealing level and in
education. In this way Urdu was established in the Punjab and
continues to dominate the cities. It is said that Urdu is the
language of sophisticated people while Punjabi is crude. It is also
alleged that Urdu is the refined form of Punjabi which is the crude
form of Urdu. The refinements of Urdu and the crudeness of Punjabi
are myths. The fact is that the difference between the two languages
is one that arises from the differences between the people who speak
them. The Urdu speaking are indeed sophisticated to the point of
being decadent, while Punjabi is crude to the point of being
straightforward and blunt and therefore honest and direct. Urdu is a
courtly language which is meticulous in making distinctions of
status whereas Punjabi is democratic and treats a man as a man. To a
Punjabi, Urdu appears to be cliche ridden, emasculated and an effete
language whereas Punjabi is a manly, honest plain practical speech
which can be as ornate, colorful, as sweet and as mellifluous as a
situation may require. It can be forceful and emphatic and when
necessary it can be as melodious as the cooing of a dove.


There is now a growing consciousness in the cities among educated
people that Punjabi language should be developed and used at all
levels in our public life as well as in our intellectual life. There
was therefore a sharp reaction to the announcement of the Punjab
chief minister that in future Urdu would be the official language in
government offices. There were protests against this decision in
many cities in the Punjab and the champions of Punjabis demanded
that Punjabi be the official language in the Punjab and that it
should immediately be made the medium of instruction in primary
education which will make Punjabis at least literate in their mother
tongue. This is important because once the people of the Punjab
become literate in their mother tongue they will discover the vast
treasure of classical Punjabi poetry, the ocean of folk poetry which
is at present an altogether undiscovered country to them. Once they
begin to read Waris Shah`s Heer Ranjha, of Mian Mohammed Buksh`s
Saiful Maluk, the poetry of Bulleh Shah, Shah Hussain, Sultan Bahoo,
Ghulam Farid to name only a few of the works which at present are
closed books to most educated Punjabis. The second advantage of this
would be to abolish the artificial barrier that now exists between
the common people of the Punjab and the educated elite. And thirdly
we all would be able to read and understand contemporary Punjabi
literature, both prose and poetry. It might then be possible to
start a newspaper and publish books in Punjabi for educational
purposes as well as for the general reader. Many of our mass
literacy programs fail because we teach the illiterate adult not his
mother tongue but a foreign language. If a mass adult literacy
program were to make usr of Punjabi it would be an instant success,
because the learner would not have the double task of learning a
script well as learning a new language.

Romair...zara gauhr kar..Amrita ki kehndi ay

Rabb khair kare mere vehRay di
ke jiss thaaN Raanjhan dera keeta
othey dhamak sunidi KheRay di.....

---

Rabba KheReyaN nu saade galloN laah
eh te saadi Heer de gall wich
paa baiThay ne phaah....

be Rabba ehna KheReyaN nu saade galloN laah...

uttoN te miThRay bol buleeNday,
te ander zehri ghaah

-db

Lokraj ji, ainnay suwakhtay uTh behnday O? kamaal ay

I guess ``tiRkay ghaRay da paani, kall takk nai rehna..`` is some old line that many people have ryhmed on...This particular stanza is from ``Kaghaz te Kanvass`` collection of AP. So Shiv might have a similar one too.

dullabhatti #various: Sardarji, lagda tuwaday baraan baj gaye naen........teehaan putran aaley ho.......apni naeen tay unnah di izzat di kuj sharam karo........kee gawachiaan gawan wargoon fazool shor paa ray ho..........

kuj mariann gallan samajhnay di koshish karo..........

Dear Dost Mittar & Lokraj ji

What you guys would say about Guru Gobind Singh ji as gazal writer particularly

Mittar piyare nu, sadha haal muridan da kehna

Can this shabad be classified as ghazal?

Thanks

Ashwani

Dear Dost Mittar & Lokraj ji

What you guys would say about Guru Gobind Singh ji as gazal writer particularly

Mittar piyare nu, sadha haal muridan da kehna

Can this shabad be classified as ghazal?

Thanks

Ashwani

Re: # 63
Drlokraj,
what shabad are you referring to?

#60 Romair, sir taaN tuhaada phiriya hoiya jehRay haqmaaN diyaaN loombaR chaalaN nu sahi keh rahay ho tay maaN boli nu bachaon di bajaaye,usdi durgati nu kudarti vartaara duss rahay ho.Sharam tuhaanu karni chahidi ae.Feroze Deen Sharaf nay theek hi kiha si
puchhi Sharaf na kisay vi baat meri
vay maiN boli haaN unhaaN PunjabiyaaN di

tay maiN apnay valloN vi joR diyaaN

Asaaday kol si dushman day har ik vaar da uttar
jadoN keeta hai aapniyaaN hi keeta hai tabaah saanu

arstoo,

Guru Gobind Singh ji`s shabad can not vi called ghazal technically