East and West

Re: # 21

Dear Azzer:

I have lived in the USA for past thirty years and always had great time with Jews, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs. Assimilation in any culture depends on individual circumstances. Some assimilate more than others. You are right in saying that I have not completely merged in this society. For any first generation immigrant, the total assimilation is simply not possible.

I have adopted a large number of attributes of this society because it is not possible to survive without it.

While making an observation, I can not make a judgement about minority in the USA. Similarly while talking about the East, we can not base our judgement on minority. I know people in the East who are much more western in outlook, culture and habits while living in India and Pakistan.

Similarly, I have many friends who were born in the USA but think like Eastern people. But such people as exceptions.

I am very clear in my mind that people have different experiences. This is what make this life very interesting. People look at exactly the same situation and reach their own opinions. The current debate about intelligent design as compared to theory of evolution is a case in point.

I have visited Sweden and Morroco within a period of few months. I have found Swedes very quiet while in Casablanca people just want to talk and discuss anything and everything with you.

I have found the same thing in India and Pakistan. Gossip is our national past-time.

This is my personal observation and I am sure you will observe the situation from a different angle.

Good luck and best wishes,

Nasim Hassan (nhassa@yahoo.com)

Re: # 20

``Whoever said about Wari Batta is a homo. ``

thats really funny...

Re #19 by hamidm2

Mian, you still don’t get it!

People doing what they wish to do is universal – there is no East-West divide at all – but there is a difference in the way people think on the two sides of the hemisphere – which creates these pathetic conditions and situations that you keep complaining about – complaining louder and more frequently than a hen who has just delivered her latest prized possession!

Taking responsibility “personally” for one’s role (for example men helping or not helping out ladies in the kitchen (and other such problematic issues which some men assiduously avoid)) does not change on the basis of geography – but it is sensitive to income levels, education, etc. That’s why desis continue to have some of the same problems in Western lands as they had back “home”.

Mian, you just don’t see it for what it is. If you think that those close-to-one’s-hearts in Multan are in any worse shape than those not-so-genetically-related hillbillies of West Virginia, an in-person visit to those mountain mamas can immediately remedy the misimpression!

Mr. Nasim, how long have you lived in the west??????? I suspect that you have not assimilated in this society. Human beings are the SAME east or west. The reason why you find differences is because you are chosing to discriminate. It takes a person who is open minded to extend a hand of friendship to a Jew or a christian, or oriental or as you say to a westerner in the same manner as you would to a desi. Your article is suggesting that you have been unable to do that. Please do not assume that others share your experience. I have made closer long lasting friendships with westerners than I have with easterners. And I came from Pakistan when I was seventeen. I feel that you are interested in maintaining the differences instead of building bridges. I noticed that some immigrants from the east have a rough time adjusting to the western climate. I also noticed that these are the same people who prepetuate stereotypes of the west. You will find warm hearted people even if you live in Alaska. The response you will get depends upon what kind of attitude you put out. If you feel that westerners are not very friendly, then that bias will become a self-fulfilling prophacy.

SalimDost,
Whoever said about Wari Batta is a homo.
In rural Punjab such as Batinda area, this is how Gays talk with each other for having Sex.

Re: # 18

beej mian,

.......... there is no ``occidental`` model - they just do what we want to do because they are able to do it ........... but it took centuries of economic and social progress for the west to get here - we are still a long long way off .......... it is hard for a man sleeping in one room with seventeen family members and a goat to think about personal liberty - after all misery does love company .............

.......... and really, i don`t have to ``prove`` the superiority of western culture - the results speak for themselves ..... don`t they ?............pakistan, and i am sure india too, is a a nice place to visit, but you can only eat so much biryani and put up with so much pretentious shows of affection ..........

#15 by hamidm2

Dear sir,

The points that you feebly raised are easily addressed as follows:

[....... that`s exactly what i tried to tell my sister when her in-laws camp out at her place for months on end during the summer ...... her answer:`` why don`t they just stay in multan where it is much warmer - why do i have to toil all day in the kitchen cooking]

Any discerning reader can immediately take notice of the “why do EYE have to” part – it’s eminently clear that the lady in question toils in kitchen all ALONE and the help provided by Mr. Hamidm2 and other male members of the entourage is strictly moral! Her response under the circumstances is fully understandable – after all, she has been carrying the burden of these male free-labor-loaders all alone and must have been tired out and the advent of the extra relations was probably the proverbial straw that broke THAT camel’s back!! However, the stressed-out response of one lady should not be an excuse to condemn the eastern society as a whole – the buck needs to stop with YOU, the real culprit – please do not attempt to weasel out!

[........ and i also tried to explain the ``warmth`` thing to other members of my family when their wives complained about the heat radiating from their mothers-in-law]

There is a lot of superficial conflict among powerful ladies in Eastern families – usually over the control of the male member of the society – according to Dr. Laura Schlessinger, such conflicts are easily traced to a vacillating male member who finds himself in conflict – a classical conflict between the obedient son at odds with the Joroo ka ghulam…

[........some of them even ran off never to come back and were replaced by more ``accomodating`` women with better manners and dowries ]

Again, the problem rests at the door of the male member – the male member, who must be accommodated, is usually the root cause of many a problem – better manners and dowries can be considered only side effects!

[............. i have seen ``close`` families fighting over who is going to take care of the schizophrenic grandma who insists that her sons are trying to poison .......... and when she finally passes away they continue to fight over the poor woman`s trinkets ..........]

Greed is a universal vice – not exclusive to the east! Kindly explain what would have been the chemistry between Jackie Kennedy and Aristotle Onasis – inspite of a significant age difference.

[......... the companionship of fellow family members is fine as long as they go home after dinner and don`t ask you for money .............]

People only ask for help from those who have a track record of providing such help – voluntarily or otherwise! For example, if I were related to you, I would have no trouble helping you see the wisdom of sending a million or two my way!!

I hope that you can come up with better arguments than THOSE to establish the superiority of the occidental model!

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: # 11
Only western civilization is allowed to be imperfect, a work in progress. The other civilizations of the world are worthless if they are not perfect right now. They are not allowed to improve, to progress. All they can hope is to be replaced by an imperfect western civilization. Thank god for white man`s burden and his civilization, eh?

Re: # 11
No.. hamidm would rather like to go forward to creationism spouting, bible thumping, boys molesting ways of the Western Civilization.

beej sahib,

``The real reason people look for other people is to seek something called the warmth of human companionship of fellow family members`` ....... that`s exactly what i tried to tell my sister when her in-laws camp out at her place for months on end during the summer ...... her answer:`` why don`t they just stay in multan where it is much warmer - why do i have to toil all day in the kitchen cooking for six good for nothing louts and their screaming offspring ! ``........... i guess she had had enough warmth .......

........... and i also tried to explain the ``warmth`` thing to other members of my family when their wives complained about the heat radiating from their mothers-in-law ........some of them even ran off never to come back and were replaced by more ``accomodating`` women with better manners and dowries ............. i have seen ``close`` families fighting over who is going to take care of the schizophrenic grandma who insists that her sons are trying to poison .......... and when she finally passes away they continue to fight over the poor woman`s trinkets ..........

......... the companionship of fellow family members is fine as long as they go home after dinner and don`t ask you for money .............

#13 Hamidm2

My dear Hamidm2 Bhai,

It appears that in spite of your long marathon stay at this esteemed site of sites, there are certain fine points of argument that this crowd of small omnivorous canids (Canis aureus) has been unable to suitably communicate to you, therefore please let me do the honors.

Sir, some of your arguments have the consistency and smoothness of the gait of a drunk donkey deprived of duly deserved daily dunta! May I draw your kind attention to the following gem:

[........it is the sign of impending senility, irrational ennui, fear of old age, fear of death and other generally irrational thoughts ..... i am getting there so i know all about it .......]

Sir, I have no doubt that you are getting there – it will not even surprise me if you are already there (and have been firmly ensconced in place for a while – perhaps at least as long you have been getting fishy advice from the likes of you know who). However, it is worth noting that you should not judge others (including Indians) by your own fine example. The real reason people look for other people is to seek something called the warmth of human companionship of fellow family members – a concept that those who get their rears regularly reprimanded by such members may have difficulty grasping!

Not directly related to this board, but it has come to my attention – through a cursory examination of some of your interacts – that you are a closet sympathizer of a rabble-rousing crowd that is intent on hurting certain atoot body parts of India. If true, that is a cause for great concern.

Sincerely,
Beej.

Re: # 12

beej,

i agree .. ``the reality is the physical closeness one detests when young – is what one prizes in life after a certain point in time! ``........ but it is the sign of impenidng senility, irrational ennui, fear of old age, fear of death and other generally irrational thoughts ..... i am getting there so i know all about it .......

Re#11 by hamidm2

[..... but there is no going back to ancient egyptian civilization, or the bride burning days of hindoo civilization, or the nomadic tribal customs of ignorant desert bedouins (aka islamic civilization) .....]
Wholesale generalizations are off the mark, as always. All civilizations are growing and changing (and occasionally regressing temporarily) with time. You must compare apples to apples – in other words, you must compare the bride burning days of Hindu civilization (unfortunately, it will be difficult to pinpoint a date or even century to such events – for instance, read my current i-log) with the contemporary days of the Western civilization. Therefore, it’s not a good idea to romanticize even others’ “values” and “traditions”, either. For example, guaranteed employment for life for Hamidm2 Good– the most recent addition to the family of Johnny B. Good through acquisition at a distress sale (since few would buy him) at the local slave auction event may not have appeared equally palatable to Mr. Hamidm2 Good to become. Similarly, there is a legitimate reason so many old desis are making a mad dash to Indian cities for their golden years – the reality is the physical closeness one detests when young – is what one prizes in life after a certain point in time!

Re: # 9

malik,

....... i agree .... it is entirely possible that something better could supplant western civilization a thousand years from now........ but there is no going back to ancient egyptian civilization, or the bride burning days of hindoo civilization, or the nomadic tribal customs of ignorant desert bedouins (aka islamic civilization) .......... i don`t necessarily agree with fukuyama`s idea that this is it and we have perfected civilization, but this is the best we have at this time and anything in the future will build upon this ..........

........ there is no point in pining for the past - desis, bushmen, eskimos, and the headhunters of borneo tend to roamanticize our ``values`` and ``traditions`` even when it is obvious that we are much better off without having to live with our in-laws, run around naked being chased by a lion, eat our neighbor for dinner, or let our wife sleep with a house guest to keep him warm .............. nobody is saying that western civilization is perfect - it is work in progress, but it is certainly a heck of a lot better than anyting we had in the past ...........

Kulharee: looks like you have this old habit or wari watta or watta satta....in some places backs are called Dhooes.....and in others you don`t let anyone near your Dhoee because there Dhoee is not same as back.
It just occured to me wari wattay te Dhooe maarni is not really a San Franciscan concept..East knew it long time ago:)

hamidm # 3 writes ``nobody in their right mind disagrees that as we approach ``the end of history`` western values will supplant eastern orthodoxy (whatever!) ``

I have always wondered with amazement at the extremely narrow view that apparently well read people take of history. Substitute ``western values`` with ``Islamic values`` and the above comment could have come straight from a mullah in a village of Pakistan. Surprisingly it came from someone who takes great pride in making mullahs the target of his daily harangues.

Lets take ourselves back thousands of years to North Africa, when an african civilization was the ONLY civilization in existence. Nobody in their ``right mind`` would have disgareed at that time that pretty soon ALL of the world would adopt the egyptian civilization. However, history and the rise and fall of civilization works in far more a complicated manner than the lazy intellect of some people would have them believe.

It is a complex process whereby competing ideas eventually inter-mingle and give rise to new concepts that suit the needs of the people in existence at that time of human evolution.