East and West

I definitely agree that there is an east-west divide.

Among easterners, there is generally a higher tendency of nepotism – people would only hire their own – and generally not base it on merits.

Also, people at work in the west generally stay away from asking questions which may be considered personal – which does not mean that they can not form strong personal relationships with colleagues – but it is not a given.

I also believe there is a clear difference between how seriously one approaches specific topics depending on which continent one represents. Certain topics, e.g., intimate, personal, or interpersonal relationships may become more complex because certain topics may be considered taboos to discuss in the east and may be done so rather casually (sometimes in a cavalier fashion) in the west. Easterners also tend to stereotype westerners, who return the favor in its own flavor.

Many times, the easterners can read more into words than the westerners – taking personal affront more easily.

Easterners can also invest more emotionally in the work they produce, many times incapable of distinguishing a criticism of their product from a personal criticism.

The westerners generally treat their pets a lot more humanely than the easterners.

I disagree with the author on some issues. Many things attributed here to “westerners” exclusively are simply “big city” items – especially those that involve the shortage of available time and resources. Also, friendships are always formed on an individual basis and their longevity does not follow an east-west divide. Neither does the human ability to share with other humans.

I have many friends who are western with hwom i have worked, and we still keep in touch over oceans and continents. Friendships die if you let them, i don`t think its an east west thing.

Tho i do agree that eastern culture is more ppl orientated than western, and it is also a lot more friendlier and hospitable too.

.......... what utter nonsense !

......... eastern ``values`` are driven by economic deprivation and dependence ......... as soon as people become economically independent they adopt ``western`` values ........ nobody wants to live in one room with six people and the family goat and get up in the morning to touch their grandfather`s smelly feet ! ......... and any woman who says that she loves living in the same house as her mother-in-law and sixteen nieces and nephews is a big fat lier !

......... western ``values`` are driven by the concept of liberty .......... political, economic, social, cultural, civil and, most important of all, personal liberty ............ nobody in their right mind disagrees that as we approach ``the end of history`` western values will supplant eastern orthodoxy (whatever!) ........... most people, except fundamentalist muslims and the mentally deranged, have already accepted the concept of ``liberal democracy`` as being the best form of government .......... and as liberal democracies take root and economic prosperity follows, the social values will change (for the better ).........as a matter of fact economic prosperity alone, without liberal democracy, as in the case of china and urban south india, has resulted in a remarkable change in values ........... kids living in singapore and bangalore don`t go home every night to massage grandpa`s feet, they prefer to party and puke like those westerners ! .......... it is time grandpa got used to the idea ...........

Hummm Very interesting.
Desis are poorer and lack infrastructure to be independent that is why they are hurdled up in small houses. As soon as they become rich they want to have their independence, especially in middle class families.

In a nutshell, In East, an Individual revolves around Society, whereas Society revolves around the Individual in the West. Perhaps, a happy medium lies somewhere in the middle, in Punjabi it is called Wari Wata – you scratch my back and I scratch your back. The rest is inconsequential and differences are superficial.

West`s main pride is their independence. That is why every American leader talks about ``INDEPENDENCE``.

They need more space, open houses, time for themselves, no probing, that is how they are groomed, I dont see anything wrong with it.

Indians can`t afford independence, it is too costly for them.

Re: # 7

Chauhan yaar, it’s the way of the future. The reason (in my unrefined opinion) that these differences are so obvious is because extreme elements in both societies are very insular. People are afraid to let go of their traditions and hold them tight, as that’s the only thing they can exercise somewhat control over. In societies that are becoming increasingly inter-racial, the customs and values become diluted after a generation or two. In NYC for example, no one will give a second look to a women covered in a black tent, but in places like Lahore, a woman walking down Anarkali in mini-shorts will attract a huge following.

So the concept of Wari Wata is that both sides should be open to not just giving, but also receiving. It’s better that way.

#5, Kulharee {``Perhaps, a happy medium lies somewhere in the middle, in Punjabi it is called Wari Wata – you scratch my back and I scratch your back.``}

Mr. Axeman,
Fine, as long as they stick to backs. Sometimes they get carried away and become a pain in the you know what. :)

Re: # 11
No.. hamidm would rather like to go forward to creationism spouting, bible thumping, boys molesting ways of the Western Civilization.

Re: # 11
Only western civilization is allowed to be imperfect, a work in progress. The other civilizations of the world are worthless if they are not perfect right now. They are not allowed to improve, to progress. All they can hope is to be replaced by an imperfect western civilization. Thank god for white man`s burden and his civilization, eh?

Re: # 9

malik,

....... i agree .... it is entirely possible that something better could supplant western civilization a thousand years from now........ but there is no going back to ancient egyptian civilization, or the bride burning days of hindoo civilization, or the nomadic tribal customs of ignorant desert bedouins (aka islamic civilization) .......... i don`t necessarily agree with fukuyama`s idea that this is it and we have perfected civilization, but this is the best we have at this time and anything in the future will build upon this ..........

........ there is no point in pining for the past - desis, bushmen, eskimos, and the headhunters of borneo tend to roamanticize our ``values`` and ``traditions`` even when it is obvious that we are much better off without having to live with our in-laws, run around naked being chased by a lion, eat our neighbor for dinner, or let our wife sleep with a house guest to keep him warm .............. nobody is saying that western civilization is perfect - it is work in progress, but it is certainly a heck of a lot better than anyting we had in the past ...........

hamidm # 3 writes ``nobody in their right mind disagrees that as we approach ``the end of history`` western values will supplant eastern orthodoxy (whatever!) ``

I have always wondered with amazement at the extremely narrow view that apparently well read people take of history. Substitute ``western values`` with ``Islamic values`` and the above comment could have come straight from a mullah in a village of Pakistan. Surprisingly it came from someone who takes great pride in making mullahs the target of his daily harangues.

Lets take ourselves back thousands of years to North Africa, when an african civilization was the ONLY civilization in existence. Nobody in their ``right mind`` would have disgareed at that time that pretty soon ALL of the world would adopt the egyptian civilization. However, history and the rise and fall of civilization works in far more a complicated manner than the lazy intellect of some people would have them believe.

It is a complex process whereby competing ideas eventually inter-mingle and give rise to new concepts that suit the needs of the people in existence at that time of human evolution.

Kulharee: looks like you have this old habit or wari watta or watta satta....in some places backs are called Dhooes.....and in others you don`t let anyone near your Dhoee because there Dhoee is not same as back.
It just occured to me wari wattay te Dhooe maarni is not really a San Franciscan concept..East knew it long time ago:)

Re: # 12

beej,

i agree .. ``the reality is the physical closeness one detests when young – is what one prizes in life after a certain point in time! ``........ but it is the sign of impenidng senility, irrational ennui, fear of old age, fear of death and other generally irrational thoughts ..... i am getting there so i know all about it .......

Re#11 by hamidm2

[..... but there is no going back to ancient egyptian civilization, or the bride burning days of hindoo civilization, or the nomadic tribal customs of ignorant desert bedouins (aka islamic civilization) .....]
Wholesale generalizations are off the mark, as always. All civilizations are growing and changing (and occasionally regressing temporarily) with time. You must compare apples to apples – in other words, you must compare the bride burning days of Hindu civilization (unfortunately, it will be difficult to pinpoint a date or even century to such events – for instance, read my current i-log) with the contemporary days of the Western civilization. Therefore, it’s not a good idea to romanticize even others’ “values” and “traditions”, either. For example, guaranteed employment for life for Hamidm2 Good– the most recent addition to the family of Johnny B. Good through acquisition at a distress sale (since few would buy him) at the local slave auction event may not have appeared equally palatable to Mr. Hamidm2 Good to become. Similarly, there is a legitimate reason so many old desis are making a mad dash to Indian cities for their golden years – the reality is the physical closeness one detests when young – is what one prizes in life after a certain point in time!

#13 Hamidm2

My dear Hamidm2 Bhai,

It appears that in spite of your long marathon stay at this esteemed site of sites, there are certain fine points of argument that this crowd of small omnivorous canids (Canis aureus) has been unable to suitably communicate to you, therefore please let me do the honors.

Sir, some of your arguments have the consistency and smoothness of the gait of a drunk donkey deprived of duly deserved daily dunta! May I draw your kind attention to the following gem:

[........it is the sign of impending senility, irrational ennui, fear of old age, fear of death and other generally irrational thoughts ..... i am getting there so i know all about it .......]

Sir, I have no doubt that you are getting there – it will not even surprise me if you are already there (and have been firmly ensconced in place for a while – perhaps at least as long you have been getting fishy advice from the likes of you know who). However, it is worth noting that you should not judge others (including Indians) by your own fine example. The real reason people look for other people is to seek something called the warmth of human companionship of fellow family members – a concept that those who get their rears regularly reprimanded by such members may have difficulty grasping!

Not directly related to this board, but it has come to my attention – through a cursory examination of some of your interacts – that you are a closet sympathizer of a rabble-rousing crowd that is intent on hurting certain atoot body parts of India. If true, that is a cause for great concern.

Sincerely,
Beej.