The Alternative Muslim Identity

All these wannabe's should jump in and take a deep dive in the cess pool of melting pot.
Most definitely there is a serious deficiency in their brought up that reflects a great deal of liberalism from every word they say and every step they take.
People without established values will always be lost no matter what part of earth they reside in while it is the responsibility of their elders to have "conveyed" a set of values if they themselves had any lack of which is demonstrative here.

We love Pakistan where we are 1st class citizen...

we send 1000 Lanat to USA or UK where we are 3rd class...

LPC to USA etc...OK

Re: # 251

Hey... you mean ``me the wo-man!`` :-)

-zensufi- (a.k.a mariam ispahani)

#256 Kaalchakra

I`m not from California although I`ve been there a couple of times. I`m in Australia.

#255 Tahmed

Thanks for the welcome.

Kisan

Comparisons are difficult, but most Indians (me included) are very conscious, and bigotted, about complexion of the skin. This bigotry is like a disease that you want to get rid of, but don`t know how to go about it.

P.S.: Are you from California?

P.S.S: On other hand, today I spent time interviewing some ladies for a receptionist position. First, we found ways of getting rid of all men who had foolishly applied. Then we tried to figure out the youngest group of female applicants. Finally, everybody understood that what we saw was as important as what we heard. Officially, we made our decisions strictly on merit.

Man is born a sinner. Isn`t that what the Christians say? :)

kisan #253 Welcome to chowk. So now we have not TWO white guys on chowk - the first one was, of course, hamidm who was certified as such by the traffic cop. :-)

I fully agree with your basic point, which is that ``Tribal values champion the collective values of the tribe as opposed to individual rights which are more stressed by modern Western culture. I prefer that stress on individual rights. ``

I agree that the term ``izzat`` is superficial and geared to a tribal mindset (being geared towards what others think of you). However, there is another equally common term used on Pakistan, namely ``ghairat`` which has more depth (being geared to what one`s actual character and self-esteem) and is geared towards individual rights.

Thus: while the Pakistan government referred to the ``national image`` (i.e. izzat) in denying Mukhtaran Mai the visa to travel abroad, the maulvi who brought the assualt on her to public light, as well as the human rights advocates within Pakistan who spoke up on her behalf and above all the courageous Mai herself, demonstrated ``ghairat``. So, ghairat is very much alive and well among ordinary people in Pakistan (and India too I am sure).

Re: a few points.

I think Hamid is just joking about wanting to be white to get some responses and for comic effect. I certainly thought most of his posts were hilarious.

Seriously though although culturally in India and it seems from the responses on this board Pakistan too people take their shade of colour seriously (and the lighter the better).

I`m a white guy (Engreiz) living a lot in India and speaking mediocre Hindi and know this inferiority complex over colour well (although this doesn`t stop Gora being a common type of putdown or insult either). I get ``Eh Gora`` all the time, or people especially kids nudging each other and saying ``dekho Gora ja raha hai`` pointing fingers.
I feel like copying Eminem and saying: ``ya ain`t seen a white person before?``.

I bought couple of gulab jamins in Sadar Bazaar Delhi around a month ago and as I was eating another customer came and said ``kala dena, do pees`` ie. well cooked, and the shopkeeper answered ``sab kala hain, yah India hai, gora kahaan se milega``.

Sometimes I wish I could be less white so I could blend in India or other places.
The other day I went to rural Haryana and walking into a shop started talking and the young guy was confused as I was talking like an Indian but looking very unusual. A business contact came in with me just behind me and and the young guy turned to him with a bewildered expression and said ``yah bahar ka hai na?``.
I got my Karnataka driving license and proudly show it off as proof of being Indian regularly.......dekho, main bahar ka nahin hum.

Personally I find darker complexioned people very beautiful for some reason and I find it funny that my South Indian partner wears Fair and Lovely cream religiously despite me critiquing regularly. Then the marriage ads in the papers detailing skin perplexion are a laugh also and sending this up as Hamid has brings focus to this ridiculous situation of colour consciousness.

I used to say that when darker coloured people put fair and lovely on and go out trying to look less dark ``bhoot ki tarah dikhai dete``. People look beautiful when the are comfortable with and confident with their own looks.

My son is darker than most Indians but I`m in love with him and his mum and they are the most beautiful people in my eyes.
I have encountered racism a lot in India, more so than other countries I`ve been so far (although the UK also has some very nasty racist bigotry).
Almost all of the models on TV or advertising are light skinned also.

Re: Izzat etc, I agree also that it isn`t a great value. Honour and respect are the kind of values that lead to unnecessary violence and cruelty like honour killings etc.
One time walking in Lal Bagh some young Tamil guys said something disrespectful to the missus which I missed, she went and confronted them and then one of them lifted his hand to strike her. I ran over there and floored him and then some plain clothed police and a big crowd came around. I explained the situation and they said we`ll arrest the guys who happened to be Army recruits and I thought give them a chance as they were drunk and I didn`t want to get them arrested. The undercover police officer said ``hamare izzat ki baat hai`` I said ``izzat kya hai, chorna`` and talked them into letting them go. Then as they walked off they said some smart comment and the police officer grabbed them again and they got taken away by the military police a bit later.
Long story, but still I agree that the obsession with Izzat isn`t a good value. It is a tribal value. Tribal values champion the collective values of the tribe as opposed to individual rights which are more stressed by modern Western culture. I prefer that stress on individual rights.

All that being said in reference to Zehra Rizvi`s essay I think the best identification is the human one.

kaalchakra #250 true. in fact the chinese adopted buddhaism while continuing to follow confucianism at the same time. same with japanese who are shintoists, confucianists and buddhists at the same time, while also celebrating christmas.

zensufi #249 You the man!! And I guess your nick (zen + sufi) shows that.

zensufi

There is no reason why one can`t belong to multiple religions. I know a person whose self-description is Hindu-Buddhist-Taoist. That`s a perfectly sensible thing to do.

The only care one needs to take is to make sure this is a genuine commitment. It shouldn`t be a political smokescreen, a device to hide commitment to X in the name of Y.

Hallo... I have a simple solution that works really well for me... when asked, ``Are you a Muslim?`` I say, ``Sometimes`` then comes.... ``Are you a Buddhist?`` and I say, ``Sometimes`` and so it goes.

FYI, I don`t appreciate your calling Americans idiots! Besides, I don`t like categorizing.

-zensufi-

hamidm:
this using of ``white`` state of mind etc. is a dangerous line to adopt IMO .... a person`s thought-processes, world view, choices, should be of one`s own and not be a derivative of some monlithic construct.... and there are many different such labels/constructs of various kinds like white, progressive, desi, liberal, pakistani, fundo blah blah...

Godot and Hamidm, Seems like there is some confusion here.

Godot, I am not talking about literal translation but perhaps now, compared to last night, I can define my distinction a little better.

Khudi and ego are primitive concepts too mostly feudal in nature. Do you remember this stupid shair from Iqbal
Khudi ko kar blund itan keh khuda bandaa say khud poochay bataa tere raza kiya hai…. Does that not sound stupid at all to you?

Hamidm- all the examples that you quoted show the defensive/polite nature of the word izzat.

“hum Izzatdar log hain is much more defensive and polite than hum ghairatdar log hain.

The reason is that the concept of Izzat though very close to Ghairat, is still a concept outside of feudal boundaries. Sultan Rahi always said “Sadi Ghairat da Sawal hai” but he never said “meri Izzat ka wastaa” or “meri izzat ka sawal hai” (Then he never worked in Urdu movies either.)

Have you heard of anybody talking about izzat and killing for izzat even when his sister runs away with a Mongol! In fact, if you remember “loog izzat lutta kar India say aiy thay” Ghairatmand logon nay kooan(well) main challang laga di thi.

People who talk about Ghairat would try to run after the Mongol with a Gandasa or a Kulhari in their hands if Mongol pulls a number on their sister.

That’s why I am okay with izzatdar loog but a ghairatmand person is not allowed in my living room.
Hence, my exclusion of Izzat from the list of those offensive words.

Hamid –

I completely understand what you mean by ``white`` being a state of mind. I must congratulate you, though, for wriggling out of this!


HP -

To me, the literal translation of ``self-esteem`` and ``self-respect`` are not the same as ``ghairat``, ``izzat`` and ``khudi``, nor it is the cultural context of it. Not only literally but conceptually as well, they are fundamentally different concepts

Without consulting a dictionary, to me “self-esteem” and “self-respect” is accepting your heritage and being comfortable with yourself. That does not lead to being “better” or “worse”.

To me, again, the literal translation of both “ghairat and izzat” = “honor,” and that of “khudi” = “ego.” In that respect, neither “honor” nor “ego” comes close to “self-esteem” or “self-respect.” “Honor” and “ego” are blanketed with ignorance, whereas “self-esteem” or “self-respect” is self-illumination.

Re: # 243

hp,

...... i beg to differ with you on the word ``izzat`` - it is not the same as self-respect or self-esteem; take a look at some common usages of the word :

1. ``wo nihayat izzat dar log hain `` : they own their house and their daughter has not yet been caught flirting with the boy next door and even though the man takes bribes he has not been caught (yet)....... they probably own a late model honda civic (VTI)..........

2. ``us nai hamari izzat par haath dala hai``: the boy followed my daughter home from college and now i am going to kill both of them ...... this usage is sometimes confused with ``ghairat mandi`` and often leads to violence and murder

3. ``unhon nain hamari buhut izzat ki`` : they fed us very well and when we left they loaded us with gifts (never mind that they cursed us as soon as we turned our backs) ........... most patwaris and lambardars get this treatment from their victims (clients) .........

4. ``yeh hamari izzat ka sawal hai``: this is a excuse used by pimps in heera mandi to beat up their women who dare to run away with a client ...... sometimes the client is killed

5. ``allah taala nain aap ko bari izzat di hai``: you have made a lot of money by taking bribes or selling drugs, but i don`t care and will do anything to marry off my daughter to your son ...........


.............. so you see, the term izzat is not the same as self-respect ............ no?

.......... and that is why i wish i was white ..........that, and the fact that white people look better - michael jackson is an exception...........

hamidm: OK, so you want to be white like Gollum? Here is how you would speak:

Hamidm:
Our pride has new hi-e-e-e-e-e-gh-t
Because cop said we w-h-i-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-te

Chorus by HP/godot:
Hamidm got khooodeeee, me precious-s-s-s-s-s
He got pride, he do-e-s-s-s-s

Hamidm:
I touch sky like a ki-e-e-e-e-te
Cause cop say ``You speedin`, you whi-e-e-e-e-e-te!!``

Chorus by HP/godot
Hamidm got khooodeeee, me precious-s-s-s-s-s
He got pride, he do-e-s-s-s-s