The Alternative Muslim Identity

All these wannabe's should jump in and take a deep dive in the cess pool of melting pot.
Most definitely there is a serious deficiency in their brought up that reflects a great deal of liberalism from every word they say and every step they take.
People without established values will always be lost no matter what part of earth they reside in while it is the responsibility of their elders to have "conveyed" a set of values if they themselves had any lack of which is demonstrative here.

We love Pakistan where we are 1st class citizen...

we send 1000 Lanat to USA or UK where we are 3rd class...

LPC to USA etc...OK

Re: # 251

Hey... you mean ``me the wo-man!`` :-)

-zensufi- (a.k.a mariam ispahani)

#256 Kaalchakra

I`m not from California although I`ve been there a couple of times. I`m in Australia.

#255 Tahmed

Thanks for the welcome.

Kisan

Comparisons are difficult, but most Indians (me included) are very conscious, and bigotted, about complexion of the skin. This bigotry is like a disease that you want to get rid of, but don`t know how to go about it.

P.S.: Are you from California?

P.S.S: On other hand, today I spent time interviewing some ladies for a receptionist position. First, we found ways of getting rid of all men who had foolishly applied. Then we tried to figure out the youngest group of female applicants. Finally, everybody understood that what we saw was as important as what we heard. Officially, we made our decisions strictly on merit.

Man is born a sinner. Isn`t that what the Christians say? :)

kisan #253 Welcome to chowk. So now we have not TWO white guys on chowk - the first one was, of course, hamidm who was certified as such by the traffic cop. :-)

I fully agree with your basic point, which is that ``Tribal values champion the collective values of the tribe as opposed to individual rights which are more stressed by modern Western culture. I prefer that stress on individual rights. ``

I agree that the term ``izzat`` is superficial and geared to a tribal mindset (being geared towards what others think of you). However, there is another equally common term used on Pakistan, namely ``ghairat`` which has more depth (being geared to what one`s actual character and self-esteem) and is geared towards individual rights.

Thus: while the Pakistan government referred to the ``national image`` (i.e. izzat) in denying Mukhtaran Mai the visa to travel abroad, the maulvi who brought the assualt on her to public light, as well as the human rights advocates within Pakistan who spoke up on her behalf and above all the courageous Mai herself, demonstrated ``ghairat``. So, ghairat is very much alive and well among ordinary people in Pakistan (and India too I am sure).

Re: a few points.

I think Hamid is just joking about wanting to be white to get some responses and for comic effect. I certainly thought most of his posts were hilarious.

Seriously though although culturally in India and it seems from the responses on this board Pakistan too people take their shade of colour seriously (and the lighter the better).

I`m a white guy (Engreiz) living a lot in India and speaking mediocre Hindi and know this inferiority complex over colour well (although this doesn`t stop Gora being a common type of putdown or insult either). I get ``Eh Gora`` all the time, or people especially kids nudging each other and saying ``dekho Gora ja raha hai`` pointing fingers.
I feel like copying Eminem and saying: ``ya ain`t seen a white person before?``.

I bought couple of gulab jamins in Sadar Bazaar Delhi around a month ago and as I was eating another customer came and said ``kala dena, do pees`` ie. well cooked, and the shopkeeper answered ``sab kala hain, yah India hai, gora kahaan se milega``.

Sometimes I wish I could be less white so I could blend in India or other places.
The other day I went to rural Haryana and walking into a shop started talking and the young guy was confused as I was talking like an Indian but looking very unusual. A business contact came in with me just behind me and and the young guy turned to him with a bewildered expression and said ``yah bahar ka hai na?``.
I got my Karnataka driving license and proudly show it off as proof of being Indian regularly.......dekho, main bahar ka nahin hum.

Personally I find darker complexioned people very beautiful for some reason and I find it funny that my South Indian partner wears Fair and Lovely cream religiously despite me critiquing regularly. Then the marriage ads in the papers detailing skin perplexion are a laugh also and sending this up as Hamid has brings focus to this ridiculous situation of colour consciousness.

I used to say that when darker coloured people put fair and lovely on and go out trying to look less dark ``bhoot ki tarah dikhai dete``. People look beautiful when the are comfortable with and confident with their own looks.

My son is darker than most Indians but I`m in love with him and his mum and they are the most beautiful people in my eyes.
I have encountered racism a lot in India, more so than other countries I`ve been so far (although the UK also has some very nasty racist bigotry).
Almost all of the models on TV or advertising are light skinned also.

Re: Izzat etc, I agree also that it isn`t a great value. Honour and respect are the kind of values that lead to unnecessary violence and cruelty like honour killings etc.
One time walking in Lal Bagh some young Tamil guys said something disrespectful to the missus which I missed, she went and confronted them and then one of them lifted his hand to strike her. I ran over there and floored him and then some plain clothed police and a big crowd came around. I explained the situation and they said we`ll arrest the guys who happened to be Army recruits and I thought give them a chance as they were drunk and I didn`t want to get them arrested. The undercover police officer said ``hamare izzat ki baat hai`` I said ``izzat kya hai, chorna`` and talked them into letting them go. Then as they walked off they said some smart comment and the police officer grabbed them again and they got taken away by the military police a bit later.
Long story, but still I agree that the obsession with Izzat isn`t a good value. It is a tribal value. Tribal values champion the collective values of the tribe as opposed to individual rights which are more stressed by modern Western culture. I prefer that stress on individual rights.

All that being said in reference to Zehra Rizvi`s essay I think the best identification is the human one.

kaalchakra #250 true. in fact the chinese adopted buddhaism while continuing to follow confucianism at the same time. same with japanese who are shintoists, confucianists and buddhists at the same time, while also celebrating christmas.

zensufi #249 You the man!! And I guess your nick (zen + sufi) shows that.

zensufi

There is no reason why one can`t belong to multiple religions. I know a person whose self-description is Hindu-Buddhist-Taoist. That`s a perfectly sensible thing to do.

The only care one needs to take is to make sure this is a genuine commitment. It shouldn`t be a political smokescreen, a device to hide commitment to X in the name of Y.

Hallo... I have a simple solution that works really well for me... when asked, ``Are you a Muslim?`` I say, ``Sometimes`` then comes.... ``Are you a Buddhist?`` and I say, ``Sometimes`` and so it goes.

FYI, I don`t appreciate your calling Americans idiots! Besides, I don`t like categorizing.

-zensufi-

hamidm:
this using of ``white`` state of mind etc. is a dangerous line to adopt IMO .... a person`s thought-processes, world view, choices, should be of one`s own and not be a derivative of some monlithic construct.... and there are many different such labels/constructs of various kinds like white, progressive, desi, liberal, pakistani, fundo blah blah...

Godot and Hamidm, Seems like there is some confusion here.

Godot, I am not talking about literal translation but perhaps now, compared to last night, I can define my distinction a little better.

Khudi and ego are primitive concepts too mostly feudal in nature. Do you remember this stupid shair from Iqbal
Khudi ko kar blund itan keh khuda bandaa say khud poochay bataa tere raza kiya hai…. Does that not sound stupid at all to you?

Hamidm- all the examples that you quoted show the defensive/polite nature of the word izzat.

“hum Izzatdar log hain is much more defensive and polite than hum ghairatdar log hain.

The reason is that the concept of Izzat though very close to Ghairat, is still a concept outside of feudal boundaries. Sultan Rahi always said “Sadi Ghairat da Sawal hai” but he never said “meri Izzat ka wastaa” or “meri izzat ka sawal hai” (Then he never worked in Urdu movies either.)

Have you heard of anybody talking about izzat and killing for izzat even when his sister runs away with a Mongol! In fact, if you remember “loog izzat lutta kar India say aiy thay” Ghairatmand logon nay kooan(well) main challang laga di thi.

People who talk about Ghairat would try to run after the Mongol with a Gandasa or a Kulhari in their hands if Mongol pulls a number on their sister.

That’s why I am okay with izzatdar loog but a ghairatmand person is not allowed in my living room.
Hence, my exclusion of Izzat from the list of those offensive words.

Hamid –

I completely understand what you mean by ``white`` being a state of mind. I must congratulate you, though, for wriggling out of this!


HP -

To me, the literal translation of ``self-esteem`` and ``self-respect`` are not the same as ``ghairat``, ``izzat`` and ``khudi``, nor it is the cultural context of it. Not only literally but conceptually as well, they are fundamentally different concepts

Without consulting a dictionary, to me “self-esteem” and “self-respect” is accepting your heritage and being comfortable with yourself. That does not lead to being “better” or “worse”.

To me, again, the literal translation of both “ghairat and izzat” = “honor,” and that of “khudi” = “ego.” In that respect, neither “honor” nor “ego” comes close to “self-esteem” or “self-respect.” “Honor” and “ego” are blanketed with ignorance, whereas “self-esteem” or “self-respect” is self-illumination.

Re: # 243

hp,

...... i beg to differ with you on the word ``izzat`` - it is not the same as self-respect or self-esteem; take a look at some common usages of the word :

1. ``wo nihayat izzat dar log hain `` : they own their house and their daughter has not yet been caught flirting with the boy next door and even though the man takes bribes he has not been caught (yet)....... they probably own a late model honda civic (VTI)..........

2. ``us nai hamari izzat par haath dala hai``: the boy followed my daughter home from college and now i am going to kill both of them ...... this usage is sometimes confused with ``ghairat mandi`` and often leads to violence and murder

3. ``unhon nain hamari buhut izzat ki`` : they fed us very well and when we left they loaded us with gifts (never mind that they cursed us as soon as we turned our backs) ........... most patwaris and lambardars get this treatment from their victims (clients) .........

4. ``yeh hamari izzat ka sawal hai``: this is a excuse used by pimps in heera mandi to beat up their women who dare to run away with a client ...... sometimes the client is killed

5. ``allah taala nain aap ko bari izzat di hai``: you have made a lot of money by taking bribes or selling drugs, but i don`t care and will do anything to marry off my daughter to your son ...........


.............. so you see, the term izzat is not the same as self-respect ............ no?

.......... and that is why i wish i was white ..........that, and the fact that white people look better - michael jackson is an exception...........

hamidm: OK, so you want to be white like Gollum? Here is how you would speak:

Hamidm:
Our pride has new hi-e-e-e-e-e-gh-t
Because cop said we w-h-i-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-te

Chorus by HP/godot:
Hamidm got khooodeeee, me precious-s-s-s-s-s
He got pride, he do-e-s-s-s-s

Hamidm:
I touch sky like a ki-e-e-e-e-te
Cause cop say ``You speedin`, you whi-e-e-e-e-e-te!!``

Chorus by HP/godot
Hamidm got khooodeeee, me precious-s-s-s-s-s
He got pride, he do-e-s-s-s-s

#242 and 241

self-respect
dignity, self-respect, self-esteem, self-regard -- (the quality of being worthy of esteem or respect; ``it was beneath his dignity to cheat``; ``showed his true dignity when under pressure``)

self-esteem, self-pride -- (a feeling of pride in yourself)

Sounds like interchangeable words.

Urdu words Khudi, Ghairat and Izzat carry different meaning. I will exclude Izzat as it sounds more like Self respect or Self esteem. Khudi and Ghairat are bogus and are a reason for most of the murders and social deprivations that occur in the brown as well as black world. These words are strongly related to feudal and tribal cultures and bring out the most despicable behavior in the colored world. The color coding system thought up by Hamidm mostly looks good to me.

He should consult with Homeland Security...Their color scheme is bogus!

Re: # 241

godot,

...... the literal translations of ``self-esteem`` and ``self-respect`` are probably the same as ``ghairat``, ``izzat`` and ``khudi`` ........... it is the cultural context that makes the difference - one is the construct of a successful culture at ease with itself, while the other is a desperate attempt by a decadent civilization that is in denial .........

............ and that is why i wish i was white (``white``, being a state of mind) - there is nothing to be gained from being comfortable with your miserable wheatish condition ...........

Re: # 235

Hamid -

You say ``Self-esteem and self-respect `` are overrated concepts - more often than not they are euphemisms for egotism and, in some cases, ignorance .............”

Self-esteem and self-respect are built on being comfortable and in tune with oneself. It’s the ``ghairat``, ``izzat`` and ``khudi`` that are overrated and misplaced concepts which inevitably lead to egotism, myopia and ignorance. There is a fundamental and a huge difference between these two concepts.

#215 KauRay, read his Autobiography...the story about the black woman is a true oen from Khushwant Singh`s life....although he did not sleep with her...that part he said he amde up.

kauRay, Balwant Gargi said white woman`s skin smells like ``bakri da dudh``..he was married to one for years.

Re: # 227
Soccer anyone?!?!??!?!?!?!

Re: # 209
I think your in some serious inferiority complex.

Firstly, what is colloquial and what it the official word are two different things. Ok? Casually we might say that boy as black a bengali, or even call me a bengali :P Or some of our pakhtoon/pashtoon brethern are as fair as the next north European person, possible the same hair colour and you cant even differentiate between them.

Secondly, there are alot of scientific benefits in the pigment of this region. Well, most of them I am myself unaware of, but to get you thinking, the darker the pigment, the less it is viable of getting skin cancer. Secondly, sun burns are an oddity here, we the darker ones are immune to sunburns until and unless your skin is sensitive due to lack of exposure. The dark skin encourages heat absorbstion and sweating. Sweating is one of most effective ways of getting cool in the heat, and discharging the hazardous urea, and nitrogen in your system. Which, the people of cooler areas cant do much about, and the other mode is the only good way to get those things out and away. But how would they do that? They dont feel thirsty coz of the cool weather. The dont drink much water, instead resort to colas and synthetic drinks that are yet another hazard to the human body. There are many things that we dotn count in our benefit, that we should!

Mr. Hadim, God was not angry or pissed when he create our type! We was just thinking in future, probably with respect to Global Warming?!!?

US Policy Changes under Condi Rice

By Jim Hoagland

WASHINGTON, June 24: A straw breaking the camel`s back, a pebble triggering the avalanche, a drop causing the cup to overflow: Choose your own image for Mukhtar Mai and the troubles she creates for her country`s frightened and duplicitous leadership. If there is justice, any of those images will fit.

Mai is the courageous Pakistani woman who has refused to be silenced after being gang-raped as a tribal ``punishment.`` She has also refused to knuckle under to the unconscionable shut-up-or-else treatment inflicted on her by President Pervez Musharraf`s government.

By standing up and getting her story noticed at this particular moment, Mai may have dealt a crippling blow to the credibility of Musharraf, who has buffaloed the Bush administration into deluging him with fulsome praise, money and arms in return for Pakistan`s incomplete help in fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban.

The sordid details of the campaign to break Mai`s will are emerging at a moment of strategic change in South Asia. The Bush administration is greatly expanding the bet it initially put down on India, while beginning to hedge its investment in Islamabad`s military-dominated regime. The effect is to free US relations with India from decades of ``tilt`` toward Pakistan.

So the ears of Bush officials are more open to hearing about the limitations of Pakistan as an ally. It may also count that Musharraf no longer deals with a fellow career military officer, retired Gen. Colin Powell, as US secretary of state. Instead, Condoleezza Rice, a woman sensitive to the humiliations and personal destruction aimed at Mai, who is in her early thirties, now runs US diplomacy.

In this easily understood case, Musharraf`s eagerness to cover up the reprehensible behavior of other officials cannot be escaped or glossed over, even in Washington.

President Bush has decided not to call Musharraf on his fairy tales about Pakistan`s reckless nuclear proliferation being the work of one man -- scientist AQ Khan -- or to press the general publicly on Pakistan`s support for terrorism in Kashmir or its manifest unwillingness to do everything it can to capture Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies.

What Bush would not do in those cases, Mai has done in hers. She has spoken truth to power and let the consequences fall where they may. Aided by Pakistani reformers in her village and abroad, she has challenged the inhuman conventions of her country`s misogynist rural society, forcing Musharraf to take sides. To his eternal shame, he backed the primitive conventions instead of her.

In June 2002 Mai -- whose name is rendered Mukhtaran Bibi in the outstanding, detailed opinion columns on this case by Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times -- was raped by four men. They had been given license to assault her sexually by a tribal council charged with retaliating against an alleged social infraction by her brother. In the normal course of things, Mai would have been murdered by her family as a matter of ``honor`` or expected to commit suicide.

Instead she went to court and secured the conviction of her rapists. They were briefly imprisoned, then freed after Mai accepted an invitation to speak in the United States this month. When this intimidation did not work, the central government put Mai on a restricted travel list and confiscated her passport.

Musharraf acknowledged his involvement in blocking the trip to reporters on Friday, two days after the Pakistani Embassy in Washington implausibly denied that and much more. Rice authorized a tough scolding of Pakistan by the State Department`s spokesman, and other officials finally began to speak critically of Pakistan`s tolerating al Qaeda`s presence in its border regions with Afghanistan.

These are signs that the State Department is breaking out of an old pattern. It no longer holds US policy in South Asia hostage to the Indo-Pakistani confrontation and a perceived need to cater to Islamabad. The Bush administration seeks a strategic partnership with India independent of what the United States does or does not do with Pakistan.

Pakistan is the ultimate hard case for US strategy: As a persistent critic of the Bush team`s hype about Musharraf and of the general`s own shortcomings, I have to acknowledge that the Pakistani leader is less corrupt and more courageous than the weak civilian governments that preceded him, including the one that forced him to take power in 1999 to save his own life.

And Musharraf does put limits on the extremists who control Pakistan`s malignant intelligence services. A new and revealing-if-true account of Pakistan`s active role in jihadist terrorism is contained in an interview with former intelligence officer Khalid Khawaja that is posted on the Asian Times Online site. But one Pakistani woman has shown that, like all autocrats, the general needs to be constantly monitored and challenged, not conspired with and consoled with rewards. Getting Pakistan to face and change its own grim reality should be an urgent American priority.



[The writer is a well known columnist for the Washington Post. This column appeared on June 23, 2005 when a demonstration was held in front of the Pakistan Embassy to support Mukhtaran Mai. Email: jimhoagland@washpost.com]

Re: # 233

godot

``Self-esteem and self-respect `` are overrated concepts - more often than not they are euphemisms for egotism and, in some cases, ignorance .............

...........my father, god bless his soul, used to get very upset at me when i said that the concepts of ``ghairat``, ``izzat`` and ``kudi`` were at the root of all problems in pakistan ............. echoboom is a prime example of a man who suffers from this horrible affliction ...........

Re: # 232

tahmed,

......... you are right about mexico - it is quite segregated and the rural indians, specially from the south, do get a raw deal in the cities ........... however, it is not nearly as bad as the black-white divide here in the us and the mestizos seem to be overwhelming the thoroughbred europeans .................

............. nobody is perfect and i am sure they have some of that in brazil too but i didn`t see anything of that kind in the ten days i was there - i think it is primarily because of the fact that most people are of mixed race ............. at least in sao paulo, which has eighteen million people and a gzillion cars and buses, everyone seemed to get along just just fine even though the rich live behind ten foot walls and seem to take helicopters to the toilet .............. it is remarkable what sex can accomplish ......... unfortunately religion is the great spoiler and can divide people even if they have the same genes ........

...... and i still maintain that it is better to be white - iman, and bilal (ra) are exceptions ........

Hamid – Don’t get me wrong. I like you. You’ve a great sense of humor, and, as Bawa Wawa said, “I’ve never met someone who was funny and stupid.”

It’s just that your “I’m white” or “I wanna be one” was too much for me to stomach. You should know better than that. Self-esteem and self-respect is free of those kinds of thoughts. It does say quite a bit about the person making that statement. I would’ve ignored it if it did not come from you.

closest i have been to brazil is f... mexico. biggest bunch of racists i ever saw this side of the dsubcontinent: those with ``spanish-blood`` are considered king of the heap, native indians (who are so uncouth as to not even speak spanish!!) are at the bottom, with all shades of mestizos (mixed blood) forming the middle.

but nice guys otherwise if they took more fiber (to take the cue from hamidm`s post below defending my and temporal`s nice-ness in the face of totally unjustified attacks by Raw Dust). :-)

godot,

.... but seriously, if you remember my first interaction on this board was based on my brazilian experience ......... and of course it is true that it would be nice if we all had a better complexion ............ come on, admit it, the bushman from kalahari and the man from madras are not exactly a comforting sight for sore eyes ! ......... we all know the truth, only michael jackson was man enough to do something about it .......

Hamid – nice cover!

I see you are squirming to get out of a tight corner and your friends bought it!!! Change the subject, eh! So, how’s Brazil? Or Argentina? Oh, oh, Guatemala? Belize, anyone?

Re: # 228

raw dust, nobody is irrelevant and temporal and tahmed are real nice guys once you get to know them - fellow curmudgeons who need a little more fiber in their diet ............ echoboom has gone over to the dark side, but i seriously believe he can be saved by a preacher`s daughter ........

......... no i haven`t been to buenos aires but the argentinians seem to have something of a bad reputation with the brazilians who think they are rather stuck up because they think of themselves as ``high class`` thoroughbred europeans and look down upon the mulattos .......

.......... but this racial/religious/cultural identity business is rather complex with everyone stuck on the notion that the heeng in their curry does not stink and their music was handed down from mount olympus ........... there are even some people who think that idlee and sambar are real food ........ and let`s not even begin to talk about the muslims who are in a class by themselves .............

hamidm: i have a Q
why do you even care to talk and relate your points with echobooms, tahmeds and temporals.. these people are irrelevant... how many of such peeps you get to see in your real life? ... thats like giving them a little too much relevance than their views deserve.. seriously..

errmm.. i was gonna agree with Hamidm thoughts on Brazil, i have just become aware of the racial pissings going in full flow on this board.. none o` that..

hamidm sir: amen to Brazil !

hamidm,
i wanna go to brazil one day.. i agree completely with your thoughts ... wese the whole latin america is kind of something - mythical, magical, material, musical, .... have you been to Buenos Aires by any chance... ?

(dont really resist this bit.. ignore it.. but if you are into movies.. and you are digging brazil at the moment - i figure, you might like Black Orpheus - it is a retelling of orpheus-eurydice myth set in Rio`s carnival)

cheers!

ana,

``i will insist on not placing superlatives, or superiority on one race over the other`` ........... i agree ..........it is not politically correct and even though god has his favourite - chosen - people we don`t want to end up like poor jimmy the greek ....... only moses could get away with this kind of bigotary ...........

ana aka ms.boring...whatever.

gujjubania aka mike. . .

please be advised that you fool no one. and a reminder that for someone like you who believes the muslims in gujarat, and in the whole of india should be demonized for a hindu victory, your protests regarding fv-ji are empty, and hypocritical.

hamid,

i`m frankly quite tired of this blondes being the most beautiful. . . i don`t doubt that they are, but i will insist on not placing superlatives, or superiority on one race over the other. if you choose to, your choice. . . i`m glad you had a nice time in brazil.

oops...sorry for that...wrong thread...

Re: # 213

ana,

..... you should take my posts seriously because there is always a very profound, if hidden, message which sometimes even i cannot find !

......... but having just come back from brazil, i am a big proponent of inter-racial breeding .............. to me, as an outsider, the brazilians seem to be a much more integrated society, much more than the united states, primarily because most of them are of rather indiscernable race ........... of course, the blondes are still the most beautiful and the one million or so japanese in sao paulo have somehow managed to keep some degree of racial purity- the second eyelid is still missing - but, by and large, the people seem to be a wonderful blend of portugese, negro, italian and god knows what not ........... everyone loves football and fejoada and they all seem to get along just fine even though some are a shade darker than others ........and i i think it is all because they are sleeping with each other ........... not like here, where the blacks eat fried chicken and play basketball , the whites eat salmon and play at playing baseball while the mexicans eat jalapenos and drink beer while watching football on pay tv .......... and all because everyone goes to bed with their own kind ............

.......... this crap about maintaining a cacophonic mosaic of languages and cultures is a recipe for balkanization and disaster ............ if we are not careful, in a few years we will see people washing their feet in the wash basins at airport restrooms and women running around in public with those silly red dots on their foreheads !

Pakistan sympathiser FV-ji seems to have elicited quite a reaction from the asian age reading junta....although the reactions are too mild and polite for my taste...

---

Ground reality

Sir, With reference to Farzana Versey’s letter Ominous Signs (June 20), I am the one who had written the letter to the JKLF in 1989 to which Aditya Rangroo has alluded in Homeless Pandits (June 18). The ground realities unfolded by 15 years of externally supported and abetted terrorism in Kashmir leading to the selective killing of nearly a thousand members of the Kashmiri Pandits during the initial days when KLF (later on JKLF) raised religious slogans, have convinced the whole world that Kashmir terrorism is integral to the Wahhabi ideological movement. In fact, OIC has given the status of an observer to the religion-based secessionist Hurriyat and not to any popular group from Kashmir just because Pakistan pleaded that Kashmir is the unfinished task of partition. In pursuance of the above ideological goal, Kashmiri terrorists would not like missing the opportunity of taking on even the President of Pakistan who is also from the Army. The story of governor Jagmohan’s logistical support to the exodus of the Pandits is the old canard which even the most virulent of his opponents, namely Dr Farooq Abdullah, also contradicted, albeit later. The works of public welfare which Mr Jagmohan did for Kashmir during his tenure endeared him to the masses in Kashmir to the extent that Muslim women in Srinagar sang his praises as part of contemporary folklore (wanwun). Of course, while dealing with the anti-national elements, he saw that the law of the land reigned supreme. If anyone in Kashmir had a strong clout in the Indian ruling apparatus, it were the stalwarts of the Kashmir political platform like Sheikh Abdullah, Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad, G.M. Sadiq, Mir Qasim, Dr Farooq Abdullah and Mufti Muhammad Sayeed who enjoyed the best of both worlds. If the Pandits had any say, neither Article 370 would be there nor the fatal status quo clause in the Simla Agreement. And thus the Kashmir issue would have been non-existent. Finally, the successful ethnic cleansing of Pandits from Kashmir and the acceptance of Kashmir’s covert theocratic status by the ``secular`` Indian Union leave no chance for the small religious minority of the Pandits to have any political space in Kashmir.

K.N. Pandita, New York

---

Ignored

Sir, Farzana Versey’s letter Ominous Signs (June 20), made shocking reading for the hostile tone the writer adopted in it. No one is saying that Kashmir’s majority community is not dying from the militants’ bullets, but that cannot take away from the fact that the Pandits have suffered at the hands of the militants. That lakhs have fled Kashmir is a fact of life. That many of them are living in camps is also a fact. If the situation had been all right in the state, if the Pandits were not terrorised, if Kashmir was truly a paradise, they would not have left their homes. If the Hurriyat had been the conduit between Kashmir’s people and the governments of India and Pakistan, it would not have been scared to test the strength of its popularity through the ballot box. Let us also not glorify separatist elements like Yasin Malik, people who openly praise Pakistani ministers for running terrorist training camps. Jammu and Kashmir has a democratically elected government, something we are forgetting in all this media blitzkrieg about the Hurriyat’s visit to Pakistan. And it is also true that in our bid to make peace with Pakistan, in our attempt to build confidence building measures, we have forgotten about the Kashmiri Pandits.

Ananya Mahajan, Mahim, Mumbai

---

Sir, Farzana Versey makes the ridiculous claim in Ominous Signs (June 20) that the Kashmiri Pandits who fled their homeland under the threat of the gun are not refugees because ``they chose to leave.`` By that yardstick, since the Palestinians too ``chose to leave`` in the months before the creation of Israel in 1948, they cannot be classified as refugees.

Ramesh Kumar, Bangalore

kaurasach#215

Here is a tidbit that Khushwant Singh may not remember!

Back in 1965 when I was about to leave for the U.S. as a student, I went for advice to Khushwant who was working at that time on a project in my office. He gave me the name and address of a woman in San Francisco and told me that she is the one to go to if I got horny. And added that she is a negro ``pur fikar na kareeN``. (Negro was still an acceptable word back then!)

ana:

-sigh-

ok

tahmed,

presenting a man in what very much looks like blackface to me is insulting and not surprising coming from you. but then perhaps you are not aware of the history of blackface in america. ignorance is not always bliss.

temporal,

once again your ``light`` attempt fails miserably.

tahmed #214:

gib·ber·ish (jĭb`ər-ĭsh)
n.
Unintelligible or nonsensical talk or writing.

astagfirallh

go in hiding sir!

the greek orthodox are inflamed and will stake you alive this evening

There is a book by Khushwant Singh - ``Black Jasmine`` - in it, he writes that black women smell like Jasmine and White women like buttermilk.

Ghost white and pasty white is as undesirable as baingan black.....whites spend billions more to darken their skins than brownies spend on ``Fair and Lovely``.

The best skin color is light brown. both sides tolerate you.


The short story is amusing. An attractive and sexy black woman tries to seduce an Indian student in NY. His inhibitions and cultural mores stops him. Time passes and the black woman and he meet again. His wife had seen the black woman in a photo. she is jealous and worried that her husband will have an affair. when she sees the black woman whose beauty has faded with age - she is relieved and doesn`t care if her husband sees the black woman - who is unattractive now.

well, the husband and the black woman (both old now) make passionate love.

ana: music to accompany Morley`s gibberish that you posted. :-)

hamid seems to always have the last laugh afterall, because we take some of his posts way too seriously.

by the way hamid sahib, being white is not really where it`s at, truth be told. one of these days, we should all stop listing what race or color or religion we are. `cause one isn`t superior to the other, you know.

here`s part of a bob marley song called ``war (no more trouble)``

Until the philosophy which holds one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war

That until there is no longer first class
And second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man`s skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
Me say war

That until the basic human rights are equally
Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
Dis a war

That until that day
The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
To be pursued, but never attained
Now everywhere is war, war. . .

godot, tahmed .........

sigh ..........just when i thought i had my identity crisis resolved and could proudly strut around like a stork instead of hobbling along like a crow, you guys and echoboom come along to ruin it for me ........... just wait, the boom will come out of his tahjud induced stupor any time now and start ranting and raving about baa baa black sheeps and gora goo chatters .......

.... i simply want to share the white man`s burden instead of adding to it !

hamidm: Pay heed to the wise words of godot ``the more you open your mouth the more insecure and less intelligent you appear.``

Why is being classified as ``white`` so important to you. Jesus Christ!! Are you a man or an echoboom!!

hamidm2, # 199

Hamid - the more you open your mouth the more insecure and less intelligent you appear. Now, thanks to your “proud” post, we know that you are suffering from a deep inferiority complex. This is quite sad for someone as intelligent as you have convinced yourself to be.

PS: I’ve also gotten a traffic ticket (actually, multiple times) identifying me as “white.” Instead of proudly framing it and hanging it in the foyer as you’d have done it, I laughed at it and threw it away (after paying it, of course.) A Pakistani friend put that in perspective for me when I told him that. “That cop must be blind,” he said.

Re: # 208

``The word `habshi` is now used as a general term for the African of the dark complexion in the Arabic, Persian and Urdu``

.......... i don`t think so !......... i think people who are pigment challenged are referred to as bengali or madrasi - haven`t you heard people say, ``sala, bilkul madrasi ki tara kala hai `` or ``larki waisey tau dekhaney mein theek hai, per rang bengalion ki tarah hai`` ? .......... sometimes people who have not been blessed by god with a fair skin are also compared to biharis and, if they have rather homely features in addition to being on the dark side, they are called degarians - as in, from dg khan .............

................ it is sad, but true, that god was not at his aesthetic best when he made the people from the subcontinent and must have been in a real foul mood when he turned his attention to africa ...... of course, hazrat bilal is an exception ..........

Re: # 203
The word `habshi` is now used as a general term for the African of the dark complexion in the Arabic, Persian and Urdu.

Yes, the Arabic 1400 years ago does use this word for the people specificly from and around Abbyssina. Coz the Eyptians to the north and Merakash (Morocco) to the west, differed in the skin colour back then, too.

And no, `habashi halwa` does mean the `dark brown sweet.` Named after the colour of the people from Africa, some 500 - 600 years ago. It does not mean the `halwa of the Africans.` This dish is nowhere known in Africa.

#206 change of nic worked you gave the game away lol

Re: # 201
LOL, xD xD xD ...

Well, identifying with a particular race has some benefits and loses too. So feel free to call yourself what ever u feel comfortable with. I have seen people who are fairly wheatish, and they are very much into the African-American community, even having origins somewhere else. Coz its the colour of you skin that one sees before looking at your biodata. So being fair does pay off, and being dark complexioned does too.

Then if u considering it broken down into parts, the second part might be the way you talk. Your accent says alot about ur background.

Its basically what we want to achieve that moulds out overall outlook. I have seen Pakistani girls, scorched black by the Karachi sun, sandblasted by Multani mitti, and daily walks to the university or college, site entire 2 to 5 months in their homes, applying fair and lovely, just to look more beautiful and pretty. Other words might be indecent. But the point being what they wanted to achieve was a good, wealthy spouse of a well-off and affluent family. With similar or better attributes.

Taboos will remain taboos. More later...

``A couple of years ago, late 2000, I decided that I was no longer Muslim.``

........... are you sure ?....... the other day my daughter, who was being pushed into helping with some fund-raising thing at the local masjid by her mother, declared, ``i don`t have the time and, besides, i am an atheist``.......... mrs hamidm, who is used to hearing this kind of stuff, didn`t miss a beat and told her to go get ready (and she did) ..........but i was a little perplexed ....... ``when and how did this happen?....... i thought, ``is she really serious, or is she just using it as an excuse to go and hang out with her friends instead of hanging out with those horrible red-haired aunties who make fun of her indie hair style`` ..............so, when she came downstairs i asked her, `` are you serious about being an atheist - you know it is hard work and you don`t have a knack for the usless, aka liberal, arts like religion, philosophy and sociology``............. she looked at me accusingly and said, ``but you don`t believe in any of that stuff either``.......... ``yes, but i don`t believe in atheism either ``........... she gave me that look which is reserved for senile old people who don`t know anything but are constantly telling younger people what to do ...........

....... anyway, i gave her a copy of karen armstrong`s history of god and told her to read it before she made up her mind whether she wanted to believe in him or not ..........she gave me that look again !.............. personally, i really don`t care wheter she believes in the tooth fairy or not, but she is taking a class in comparative religion next semester and needs an a to offset the c in sociology last semester .................

Re: # 203

shishapa,

sorry, but i think habashi comes from multan - as in ``habashi halwa`` .....

I think Habashi comes from Abbysinian (who are Ethiopians).

blondes must be beautiful ..........

........... has anyone else noticed how many pakistani women are bleaching their hair blonde or dyeing it red ? ............. mrs hamidm tells me that some are even getting skin peels and finally, after centuries of natural living, are beginning to shave their legs too ................. what the heck is going on ? ..........

............. is tony berlusconi right after all ? ......is western civilization going to sweep everything away ?.............. are echoboom and urstruly doomed to drown in this flood which was not predicted in the old, new or newer testaments ?............ why are iranian women showing more hair and revealing their feminine charms by wearing figure-hugging coats ?..............

............. who needs an alternative ``muslim`` identity when eventually we will all be westernized even though we can`t be white .........................

tahmed,

...... on her first trip to america my mother-in-law, a hindoo convert from jullunder who a has a rather overly wheatish complexion, would look at the african americans - habashis, she called them - shake her head, cluck her tongue and say , `` becharay buhat hee kalay hain, allah ta`allah nain in kay sath kitna zulum kiya hai ``.........

....... now, how can you argue with that kind of logic .............

hamidm: so was kansi. :-) i saw his ``wanted`` picture on a post office wall back then (when he had just run away after his killing spree), and they had his race down as white too.

I didnt know you were so easily thrilled (i.e. in being classified as white). Talk about being ``race conscious``. Desis are the most color conscious people on earth I think.

i am white ..................

.............. my eighteen year old daughter was thrilled when she recently got her first traffic ticket ......... as somone who would have graduated from high school without a single detention if she hadn`t been caught without her jacket in the hall in the last week of school, it was a big achievement for her - an affirmation of her wild and dangerous life style ............. but more than the thrill of being chased by the police at forty miles an hour, she was absolutely delighted that he put a little ``w`` in the race box ......... i didn`t know that they had a race box even though i collect tickets with jihadi zeal, but it seems that they do, and the policeman, not knowing how to classify a brown person with straight hair, decided my daughter was white .............

............ and she agrees ......she felt redeemed, exonerated and honored because many of her desi friends accuse her of being a cocunut , a white-wannabe who listens to indie music instead of rap, and hangs out with gay guys in turtle neck sweaters instead of chasing pimply msa billy goats with scraggly beards, gel in their hair and nihari on their breath .............

............. her identity crisis is over and the traffic ticket is prominently posted on the fridge along with her solitary detention ticket ..............



p.s. but my identity crisis continues ..........yesterday at the airport, this nice young lady scrutinized my passport carefully, poring over the pakistani visa and looking suspiciously at my saddamesque moustache ...... `` how long have you lived in the us``..... ``thirty years,`` i said, adding on a few years for dramatic effect ..........with a sheepish, almost apologetic grin, the young lady swiped my passport and said, ``welcome home``.......... it was okay, but i wish i was white too ............

Re: # 195

echo,

what do you have against khusraas and kanjars ?........

........... but you are right about ``merlo-munafiqs`` - there is nothing worse than a person who drinks pink zindanfel ............ they are the the equivalent of the mullah who swats flies around his ears every time he bends over to touch his kness during rukoo !

Laanat-ullah #195

froths his hatred and intolerance

in the language he condemns



insecurista abul-hates!

..... fejoada and caipirinha is muslim food ? ...........


.......... abdul is a good muslim even though he was born and raised in brazil and has never been to mecca or lebanon, the land from where his grandparents emigrated ... .......... at lunch, when they put out these wonderful looking tenderloin medallions wrapped in bacon, he passed them up and settled for plain old black beans and rice ........ ``i don`t do pork``, he said, as he picked out the pieces of bacon from the beans ......... ``neither do i, `` i said, as i carefully proceeded to unwrap the beef before stacking it up on my plate - honestly speaking, i have nothing against the poor pig, but i didn`t want to offend my host ..........

............... so i was a little surprised when he said, ``tomorrow we must have fejoada for lunch before you leave for the airport - i will take you to the best place in town where they also make the meanest caipirinha`` .......... good to his word he took me to this elegant restaurant where, after a long and animated discussion with the waiter in portugese, he informed me that he had ordered the ``traditional`` fejoada ........ ...i know that fejoada is beans and pork and godknowswhatnot cooked over a slow fire for at least twenty four hours, but i had never heard of this traditional variety ......``it has pig`s ears, tongue, tail and ears along with sausage and rib meat - it is what real brazilian`s eat``............. he was right - it was delicious, as were the caipirinhas ! ............

.......... i didn`t have to ask him how he could he eat the fejoada when he didn`t ``do`` pork - i know he is a real brazilian ...........

Pre-Islamic tribal ( kufr) practices are still alive under the fancy names of ``tradition`` and ``heritage`` [ MoenjoDero & HaRRappa syndrome of the westernised scum]. The NGO`s are eager to take the muslims back to pre-Islamic kufr days and are using Mukhtar-mai
as a mascot to drum up support to do away with the lashes & hanging for such heinous crimes.

They very much want to encourage Haraamkaari & ``tolerant`` society so that their
agenda to ``Open-up-the oriffices`` is implemented.

Never ever! will it be allowed to happen.

Iran was going through similar ``events`` before the Shah was shoved to the dustbin of secularism. A similar case where the Shah was trying to save American thUggs against his own & wanted the criminals to be whisked out of the country to please his secularist Masters.


It must never ever be lost sight of that none of the KanjaRR NGO`s were part of the action , until a grant of $8000 was received from Canada to create an anti-Islam ``story``.
It backfired. It was a MULLAH who put his life on line & encouraged her to speak & himself spoke about it in his Khutbaas. IT was a SHARIAT court which convicted the animals but it was a SECULAR court which set 8 free; and the High court which set ALL free.

The rapist are english-educated, high-ups, landed ``gentry, Cantonement/civil-line kuttaas, westernised-scum, margarine muslims, merlot-munafiques--just like some dogooders here. Never any MULLAHS, always Ba Ba Blacksheep. Even Benazir`s best friend, while she was PM, was raped by a Ba Ba Blacksheep--Zilch happened. Tariq Ali, the commie`s, `honour` never stirred. She was related to him ( I think thru Shaukat Hayat). He was busy doing his do-gooding in a western way.

And here the Khusraa-KanjarRR is crowing as if he has sighted the christmas moon.

The excitement now of the KanjaRRs and Khusraa Pakistanis is understandible. The maalik called! The chanting of ``Meray Maalik bulaa loa Washington mujhhay`` worked.

No wonder Nilofer Bakhtiar called in parliament that these (Asma Jahangir) NGO`s are always looking for any opportunity to be with their ``John & Johnny walkers````--well said Nilofer--you sound like my twin. JazaakAllah!



from:
www.mukhtarmai.com
When the local imam, or Islamic cleric, heard of what had happened to Mai, he used his position at the pulpit to speak out against the injustice that had been done and to call for Mai`s condemners and attackers to be brought to trial before a civil court. The balance of political power that had once favored the attackers was slowly beginning to shift. The imam encouraged Mai to file an official complaint with the police. Mai filed the complaint, which was at first ignored.

She did not give up. Her attackers had assumed she would be too ashamed to reveal what had happened, but with the assistance of her friends and the imam, she got word out to the local and international media. In a post-9/11 world where the Pakistani government was eager to prove that it was on the side of law and order, this media attention was enough to shame the civil authorities into action. The tribal elders and the volunteer rapists were brought to trial; six were sentenced to hang.


ai and her family were pleased with the verdict, not only because it represented justice for Mai, but because they felt it would help to break the authority of panchiat courts and discourage the practice of karo kari rapes.
``God has provided justice to me,`` Mai told reporters at the time. ``If more courts start giving decisions like this, I am sure that rapes will be reduced, if not stopped totally. I am satisfied with the decision.``


As part of the settlement, Mai was given the equivalent of about $8,000 in compensation - a very large sum in rural Pakistan. Perhaps fearing that Pakistan`s reputation would be hurt further if Mai were to suffer any retribution in her village, the government also offered to buy her a home in cosmopolitan Islamabad, where she would live a life of relative luxury in a place where no one knew anything about her past.

Mai declined those offers. Instead of leaving, she took the $8,000 and used it to start a school for girls in Meerwala, the village`s first. At this school, Mai and her friends work to provide young girls with the knowledge and understanding that will give them more power in the world, more awareness of their rights, and more dignity to fall back on when those rights are challenged.

ShoreSahib,

Here`s a digit for you:



Now ask this guy how American you are...

Re: # 183

Do you have a point or are you one digit short of a full finger?

Laanat-ullah #190

froths his hatred and intolerance

in the language he condemns

insecurista abul-hates!