The Alternative Muslim Identity
Zehra Rizvi June 19, 2005
#160 Posted by ana on June 21, 2005 1:25:37 pm
once again, the gentleman in 157 stares at himself in the mirror when he mentions khussras and hijras. such self-hate. who would have thought it was possible?
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#161 Posted by temporal on June 21, 2005 1:39:25 pm
#157 wants to know
No matter how tragic the occasion... and then starts frothing hatred
my query is where were the likes of islam-proud, islam-wearing, islam loving cut n paste chowkies:
* when saima sarwar imran was gunned down by her mother/uncle in the law offices of hina gilani
* when news comes routinely of women (muslims, hindus, christians) being abused, raped, violated and discriminated in paksitan and in the rest of muslim world
* when shazia was raped
* when mukhtaran was raped
and, more importantly
what did these islam-pasand chowkies did to alleviate their grieviences?
at the least those in the west like ANNA and others are using this as a lightening rod to focus on the injustices there...
No matter how tragic the occasion... and then starts frothing hatred
my query is where were the likes of islam-proud, islam-wearing, islam loving cut n paste chowkies:
* when saima sarwar imran was gunned down by her mother/uncle in the law offices of hina gilani
* when news comes routinely of women (muslims, hindus, christians) being abused, raped, violated and discriminated in paksitan and in the rest of muslim world
* when shazia was raped
* when mukhtaran was raped
and, more importantly
what did these islam-pasand chowkies did to alleviate their grieviences?
at the least those in the west like ANNA and others are using this as a lightening rod to focus on the injustices there...
#162 Posted by arjun_m on June 21, 2005 1:44:26 pm
#157 by echoboom on June 21, 2005 12:51pm PT
Never under shariah will be allowed to germinate.
Shouldn`t you wait for shariah to germinate first?
Never under shariah will be allowed to germinate.
Shouldn`t you wait for shariah to germinate first?
#168 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 21, 2005 2:59:31 pm
Re: # 163
What has Yoginder Sikand got to do with Echoboom.
You have got something of yours twisted in a knot.
What has Yoginder Sikand got to do with Echoboom.
You have got something of yours twisted in a knot.
#163 Posted by iron_mask on June 21, 2005 1:45:28 pm
#160, #161 I wish Ralph were around. He could fill in the gaps. I recall him mentioning one Yoginder Sikand - and echoboom in the same breath......in fact Yoginder Sikand (and apprently echoboom is his disciple) caused the atimes site to shut down.....so you can imagine the capacity here.
Where is Ralph when you need the guy......
Where is Ralph when you need the guy......
#164 Posted by iron_mask on June 21, 2005 1:48:57 pm
#157 Echoboom : Never under shariah will be allowed to germinate
I guess that is what you want - kill all different plants and diversity. So what is the difference between you and hitler - who wanted only Blonde Blue eyed 6 foot tall Aryans, Everyone else was sub-human. Echoboom you are digging a gigantic hole for yourself.
Monoculture will kill human beings...grater the diversity, survival rate is improved.
I guess that is what you want - kill all different plants and diversity. So what is the difference between you and hitler - who wanted only Blonde Blue eyed 6 foot tall Aryans, Everyone else was sub-human. Echoboom you are digging a gigantic hole for yourself.
Monoculture will kill human beings...grater the diversity, survival rate is improved.
#165 Posted by Saminasha on June 21, 2005 2:46:16 pm
Mr Amir Saulat Jafri,
So now ``do goodism`` , ``humanism`` and ``feminism`` is at odds with fundamentalist Islam?
So, what are you saying about fundamentalist Islam?
lol....
So now ``do goodism`` , ``humanism`` and ``feminism`` is at odds with fundamentalist Islam?
So, what are you saying about fundamentalist Islam?
lol....
#166 Posted by Saminasha on June 21, 2005 2:47:50 pm
khams,
identity is multilayered and in constant flux and evolution IF you are a thinking person courageous enough to examine your belief system and principles in a dynamic way. :)
identity is multilayered and in constant flux and evolution IF you are a thinking person courageous enough to examine your belief system and principles in a dynamic way. :)
#167 Posted by Saminasha on June 21, 2005 2:55:58 pm
Cayenne,
Do you even know what I`m talking about?
Posted Sunday, May. 15, 2005
In this week`s TIME, Christopher John Farley reveals why Dave Chappelle decided to leave his hit show and what he`s been up to since he disappeared to South Africa two weeks ago. Last Friday night, TIME Johannesburg bureau chief Simon Robinson met with the comic at uShaka Marine World on the beach in the South African port of Durban. In a ninety minute conversation, Chappelle was eager to set the record straight on why he suddenly left the U.S. and what he`s doing in South Africa. Here`s Robinson`s account:
Dave Chappelle shows up to our interview in a red t-shirt, blue jeans and shiny white sneakers. He lopes around in his usual style, pacing a lot, but does not seem like a man struggling to speak or to order his thoughts at all. He`s lucid and thoughtful and a couple of times asks me to give him some time to think about answers. He concedes that he is dealing with a lot of issues and mentions that he had consulted a psychiatrist about a week ago for a forty minute session. He is also quite fastidious about keeping his new sneakers clean and stops at least twice to wipe smudges off their toes.
The first thing Chappelle wants is to dispel rumors—that he`s got a drug problem, that he`s checked into a mental institution in Durban—that have been flying around the U.S. for the past week. He says he is staying with a friend, Salim, and not in a mental institution, as has been widely reported in America. Chappelle says he is in South Africa to find ``a quiet place`` for a while. ``Let me tell you the things I can do here which I can`t at home: think, eat, sleep, laugh. I`m an introspective dude. I enjoy my own thoughts sometimes. And I`ve been doing a lot of thinking here.``
The picture he paints—and it seems a fairly honest and frank assessment— is of someone struggling to come to terms with a new position and power who`s still figuring out how to come to grips with how people around him are reacting to the $50 million deal he signed last year with Comedy Central. Without naming specific characters, he seems to blame both some of his inner circle (not his family) and himself for the stresses created by last year`s deal.
``There were things that overwhelmed me,`` he says. ``But not in the way that people are saying. I haven`t spent any of the money. All that stuff about partying and taking crack is not true. Why do I live on a farm in Ohio? To support my partying lifestyle?``
The problems, he says, started with his inner circle.``If you don`t have the right people around you and you`re moving at a million miles an hour you can lose yourself,`` he says. ``Everyone around me says, `You`re a genius!`; `You`re great!`; `That`s your voice!` But I`m not sure that they`re right.`` And he stresses that Comedy Central was not part of the problem and put no more than normal television restrictions on what he could do.
``You got to be careful of the company you keep,`` Chappelle says. ``It`s hard to know how much to say. One of the things that happens when people make the leap from a certain amount of money to tens of millions of dollars is that the people around you dramatically change.
``During my ascent, I`ve seen other people go through that wall to become really big. They always said that fame didn`t change them but that it changes the people around them. You always hear that but you never really understand it. But now that I`m there that makes a lot of sense and I`m learning what that means. You have to have people around you that you can trust and aren`t just out for a meal ticket.``
The breakdown in trust within his inner circle seems to have led him to question the material they were producing. He seems obsessed with making sure the material is good and honest and something that he will be proud. ``I want to make sure I`m dancing and not shuffling,`` he says. ``What ever decisions I make right now I`m going to have live with. Your soul is priceless.`` The first two seasons of his show ``had a real spirit to them,`` he says. ``I want to make sure whatever I do has spirit.``
But Chappelle also says that he must share the blame for the stalled third season. ``I`m admittedly a human being,`` he says. ``I`m a difficult kind of dude.`` His earlier walkout during shooting ``had a little psychological element to it. I have trust issues, things like that. I saw some stuff in myself that I just didn`t dig. It`s like when I brought a girl home to my mom and it looked as if my mom really didn`t like this girl. And she told me, `I like her just fine. I just don`t like you around her.` That`s how I feel in this situation. There were some things about myself that I didn`t like. People got to take inventory from time to time. That`s what this [coming to South Africa] is for.``
This is Chappelle`s second trip to South Africa. He first came to Durban, and visited Salim, in 2000. Chappelle won`t tell me exactly how he met Salim but describes him as a family friend. A soft-spoken Muslim, Salim seems also to be something of a sounding board to Chappelle, who converted to Islam several years ago. While Chappelle is not doing a formal religious course in Durban, says Salim, who wore a simple cotton robe and hung back through the interview and photo shoot and only spoke when I asked him a question, ``if he wants to talk religion then I`m there as someone to talk to.`` Says Chappelle: ``This is kind of my spot where I can come to fill my spirit back up. Sometimes you neglect these things if you are running on a corporate schedule.`` The crux of his crisis seems to boil down to his almost obsessive need to ``check my intentions.`` He uses the phrase a few times during the interview and explains that it means really making sure that he`s doing what he`s doing for the right reasons.
His family, he says, has been a huge support over the past eight months. ``They`ve been phenomenal really, just incredible. What beautiful people. Everyone loves their family but it`s good if you can like them too.``
His religion is also crucial. ``I don`t normally talk about my religion publicly because I don`t want people to associate me and my flaws with this beautiful thing. And I believe it is a beautiful religion if you learn it the right way. It`s a lifelong effort. Your religion is your standard. Coming here I don`t have the distractions of fame. It quiets the ego down. I`m interested in the kind of person I`ve got to become. I want to be well rounded and the industry is a place of extremes. I want to be well balanced. I`ve got to check my intentions, man.``
That includes planning for the future. When I ask him if he would ever buy a place of his own in South Africa, Chappelle replies, ``First of all I`ve got to make sure I`ve got a job.``
He says that he`s only been recognized five or six times in the two weeks he`s been here. ``It happens so sporadically that when it does it freaks me out because I have to remember, `Oh, yeah, I`m famous.``` At the end of our interview/photo shoot an American woman does recognize him. ``Number seven,`` he cries. ``Wow, I`m not that big in Africa. I`ve got to do an action film here.``
During most of the hour and a half that we talk, Chappelle is serious and introspective. But he still has his sense of humor, which comes out as we near the end of our conversation: ``Is that enough to prove I`m not smoking crack or hanging out in a mental institution?``
Do you even know what I`m talking about?
Posted Sunday, May. 15, 2005
In this week`s TIME, Christopher John Farley reveals why Dave Chappelle decided to leave his hit show and what he`s been up to since he disappeared to South Africa two weeks ago. Last Friday night, TIME Johannesburg bureau chief Simon Robinson met with the comic at uShaka Marine World on the beach in the South African port of Durban. In a ninety minute conversation, Chappelle was eager to set the record straight on why he suddenly left the U.S. and what he`s doing in South Africa. Here`s Robinson`s account:
Dave Chappelle shows up to our interview in a red t-shirt, blue jeans and shiny white sneakers. He lopes around in his usual style, pacing a lot, but does not seem like a man struggling to speak or to order his thoughts at all. He`s lucid and thoughtful and a couple of times asks me to give him some time to think about answers. He concedes that he is dealing with a lot of issues and mentions that he had consulted a psychiatrist about a week ago for a forty minute session. He is also quite fastidious about keeping his new sneakers clean and stops at least twice to wipe smudges off their toes.
The first thing Chappelle wants is to dispel rumors—that he`s got a drug problem, that he`s checked into a mental institution in Durban—that have been flying around the U.S. for the past week. He says he is staying with a friend, Salim, and not in a mental institution, as has been widely reported in America. Chappelle says he is in South Africa to find ``a quiet place`` for a while. ``Let me tell you the things I can do here which I can`t at home: think, eat, sleep, laugh. I`m an introspective dude. I enjoy my own thoughts sometimes. And I`ve been doing a lot of thinking here.``
The picture he paints—and it seems a fairly honest and frank assessment— is of someone struggling to come to terms with a new position and power who`s still figuring out how to come to grips with how people around him are reacting to the $50 million deal he signed last year with Comedy Central. Without naming specific characters, he seems to blame both some of his inner circle (not his family) and himself for the stresses created by last year`s deal.
``There were things that overwhelmed me,`` he says. ``But not in the way that people are saying. I haven`t spent any of the money. All that stuff about partying and taking crack is not true. Why do I live on a farm in Ohio? To support my partying lifestyle?``
The problems, he says, started with his inner circle.``If you don`t have the right people around you and you`re moving at a million miles an hour you can lose yourself,`` he says. ``Everyone around me says, `You`re a genius!`; `You`re great!`; `That`s your voice!` But I`m not sure that they`re right.`` And he stresses that Comedy Central was not part of the problem and put no more than normal television restrictions on what he could do.
``You got to be careful of the company you keep,`` Chappelle says. ``It`s hard to know how much to say. One of the things that happens when people make the leap from a certain amount of money to tens of millions of dollars is that the people around you dramatically change.
``During my ascent, I`ve seen other people go through that wall to become really big. They always said that fame didn`t change them but that it changes the people around them. You always hear that but you never really understand it. But now that I`m there that makes a lot of sense and I`m learning what that means. You have to have people around you that you can trust and aren`t just out for a meal ticket.``
The breakdown in trust within his inner circle seems to have led him to question the material they were producing. He seems obsessed with making sure the material is good and honest and something that he will be proud. ``I want to make sure I`m dancing and not shuffling,`` he says. ``What ever decisions I make right now I`m going to have live with. Your soul is priceless.`` The first two seasons of his show ``had a real spirit to them,`` he says. ``I want to make sure whatever I do has spirit.``
But Chappelle also says that he must share the blame for the stalled third season. ``I`m admittedly a human being,`` he says. ``I`m a difficult kind of dude.`` His earlier walkout during shooting ``had a little psychological element to it. I have trust issues, things like that. I saw some stuff in myself that I just didn`t dig. It`s like when I brought a girl home to my mom and it looked as if my mom really didn`t like this girl. And she told me, `I like her just fine. I just don`t like you around her.` That`s how I feel in this situation. There were some things about myself that I didn`t like. People got to take inventory from time to time. That`s what this [coming to South Africa] is for.``
This is Chappelle`s second trip to South Africa. He first came to Durban, and visited Salim, in 2000. Chappelle won`t tell me exactly how he met Salim but describes him as a family friend. A soft-spoken Muslim, Salim seems also to be something of a sounding board to Chappelle, who converted to Islam several years ago. While Chappelle is not doing a formal religious course in Durban, says Salim, who wore a simple cotton robe and hung back through the interview and photo shoot and only spoke when I asked him a question, ``if he wants to talk religion then I`m there as someone to talk to.`` Says Chappelle: ``This is kind of my spot where I can come to fill my spirit back up. Sometimes you neglect these things if you are running on a corporate schedule.`` The crux of his crisis seems to boil down to his almost obsessive need to ``check my intentions.`` He uses the phrase a few times during the interview and explains that it means really making sure that he`s doing what he`s doing for the right reasons.
His family, he says, has been a huge support over the past eight months. ``They`ve been phenomenal really, just incredible. What beautiful people. Everyone loves their family but it`s good if you can like them too.``
His religion is also crucial. ``I don`t normally talk about my religion publicly because I don`t want people to associate me and my flaws with this beautiful thing. And I believe it is a beautiful religion if you learn it the right way. It`s a lifelong effort. Your religion is your standard. Coming here I don`t have the distractions of fame. It quiets the ego down. I`m interested in the kind of person I`ve got to become. I want to be well rounded and the industry is a place of extremes. I want to be well balanced. I`ve got to check my intentions, man.``
That includes planning for the future. When I ask him if he would ever buy a place of his own in South Africa, Chappelle replies, ``First of all I`ve got to make sure I`ve got a job.``
He says that he`s only been recognized five or six times in the two weeks he`s been here. ``It happens so sporadically that when it does it freaks me out because I have to remember, `Oh, yeah, I`m famous.``` At the end of our interview/photo shoot an American woman does recognize him. ``Number seven,`` he cries. ``Wow, I`m not that big in Africa. I`ve got to do an action film here.``
During most of the hour and a half that we talk, Chappelle is serious and introspective. But he still has his sense of humor, which comes out as we near the end of our conversation: ``Is that enough to prove I`m not smoking crack or hanging out in a mental institution?``
#174 Posted by cayenne on June 22, 2005 12:39:02 am
Re: # 169
He`s in a happy house sharing a room with a guy named Salim.All this happens after he becomes a muslim.What`s up with islam and mental imbalance??......
He`s in a happy house sharing a room with a guy named Salim.All this happens after he becomes a muslim.What`s up with islam and mental imbalance??......
#169 Posted by Raw_Dust on June 21, 2005 3:45:49 pm
``Dave Chappelle decided to leave his hit show and what he`s been up to since he disappeared to South Africa two weeks ago. ``
sounds like, bechara Chapelle caught the same bug that hit Junaid Jamshed. I hope he gets back in his mighty form very very soon.
sounds like, bechara Chapelle caught the same bug that hit Junaid Jamshed. I hope he gets back in his mighty form very very soon.
#170 Posted by _digit on June 21, 2005 5:25:45 pm
A ``political Muslim`` identity? Interesting...this is exactly the identity Islamists espouse...it doesn`t work for them either.
As for the PMU, my God...aside from Ahmed, the lot are a bunch of sarcastic snots. I have a friend who posts to the MWU site using two different aliases, and personas. One is that of a conservative Muslim the other a liberal...says the same thing but the reactions to him are totally different...interesting experiment.
Back in 2002 I had a crisis of ``identity`` and ``faith`` of sorts myself...but the other way. Needless to say, I have nothing left but faith in God, it`s humanity that`s bugging the crap out of me. Sadly, there`s no such thing as apostasy from your species...
As for the PMU, my God...aside from Ahmed, the lot are a bunch of sarcastic snots. I have a friend who posts to the MWU site using two different aliases, and personas. One is that of a conservative Muslim the other a liberal...says the same thing but the reactions to him are totally different...interesting experiment.
Back in 2002 I had a crisis of ``identity`` and ``faith`` of sorts myself...but the other way. Needless to say, I have nothing left but faith in God, it`s humanity that`s bugging the crap out of me. Sadly, there`s no such thing as apostasy from your species...
#171 Posted by sajal on June 21, 2005 6:47:57 pm
Hi Zehra,
I liked the article. I would like to add stop worrying about other people just be yourself because your beliefs and religion is with you and what you believe is only your business.
I am a muslim and that`s it as I am not attaching any labels to it, practising or not, conservative or progressive they are all but labels and cannot describe my beliefs and ideas.
I am pro- choice
I believe sex is a personal decison so gay or not ...be happy with who you are.....
I voted democrat....so sad they did not win....
majority of Americans are stupid..hey we proved it ...didn`t we.......
Be happy and content with yourself............
sajal
I liked the article. I would like to add stop worrying about other people just be yourself because your beliefs and religion is with you and what you believe is only your business.
I am a muslim and that`s it as I am not attaching any labels to it, practising or not, conservative or progressive they are all but labels and cannot describe my beliefs and ideas.
I am pro- choice
I believe sex is a personal decison so gay or not ...be happy with who you are.....
I voted democrat....so sad they did not win....
majority of Americans are stupid..hey we proved it ...didn`t we.......
Be happy and content with yourself............
sajal
#172 Posted by ana on June 21, 2005 7:39:36 pm
ralph is very much around and among us.
he`s just using a different avatar, that`s all.
he`s just using a different avatar, that`s all.
#176 Posted by Dash_Dot on June 22, 2005 1:30:11 am
Re: # 173 Wheel of Time,
Upto a point I agree with you regarding the onion model - I dont like it..but needs be...religion culture and all human activity essentially have the same model layered. You have to peel away, work away and get to the insides - this is the depth thing...
The reason the onion model works with religion is simply this....
the moment you get rid of one layer the next turns up. You keep looking deep inside for the core. The core is essentially nothingness, its empty or it can be vast like space (infinite). It is we human beings who have built this structure around an entity called god.
The properties associated with this entity, are such that they are similar to what I would call an idealised human being (insaaniyat, buddha or whatever). The superstructure around this ideal human being are varied, some are fairly austere, others are elaborate - but the essence is the same in all structures. The key is our ability to accept that all structures provide us with shelter. Thus we can accept that an atheist is as much a human being as a god fearing man (and all variations between the two). Its just one guy doesnot care much for the superstructure around god, the other guy wants to have this structure andkeep building more on top of this.
``Was speaking to a Sikh friend. It occurred to me that Akaal and Sanaatan mean exactly the same thing. Interesting, isn`t it? :) ``
Interesting yes, but should you be surprised. from my little understanding of languages Akaal is the negation of Kaal (time), Akaal then means timelessness, whereas the other is for all times - dont both carry the same sentiment - just as infinite and nothingness. Spcae is both nothingness and infinite at the same time.
going back to the previous discussion - the brownian motion .....model...the more abstract you get, the more tranquil it gets, the more tranquil it gets the more you are peeling away at the layers of the onion.! Sort of mobius strip effect here - you are both inside and outside the strip at the same time. An Atheist and a Theist both exist on the same strip, make them go around the strip once they could have a schizoid experience...maybe I am wrong...maybe I will attain that nirvana just I take those last few breaths.....
Upto a point I agree with you regarding the onion model - I dont like it..but needs be...religion culture and all human activity essentially have the same model layered. You have to peel away, work away and get to the insides - this is the depth thing...
The reason the onion model works with religion is simply this....
the moment you get rid of one layer the next turns up. You keep looking deep inside for the core. The core is essentially nothingness, its empty or it can be vast like space (infinite). It is we human beings who have built this structure around an entity called god.
The properties associated with this entity, are such that they are similar to what I would call an idealised human being (insaaniyat, buddha or whatever). The superstructure around this ideal human being are varied, some are fairly austere, others are elaborate - but the essence is the same in all structures. The key is our ability to accept that all structures provide us with shelter. Thus we can accept that an atheist is as much a human being as a god fearing man (and all variations between the two). Its just one guy doesnot care much for the superstructure around god, the other guy wants to have this structure andkeep building more on top of this.
``Was speaking to a Sikh friend. It occurred to me that Akaal and Sanaatan mean exactly the same thing. Interesting, isn`t it? :) ``
Interesting yes, but should you be surprised. from my little understanding of languages Akaal is the negation of Kaal (time), Akaal then means timelessness, whereas the other is for all times - dont both carry the same sentiment - just as infinite and nothingness. Spcae is both nothingness and infinite at the same time.
going back to the previous discussion - the brownian motion .....model...the more abstract you get, the more tranquil it gets, the more tranquil it gets the more you are peeling away at the layers of the onion.! Sort of mobius strip effect here - you are both inside and outside the strip at the same time. An Atheist and a Theist both exist on the same strip, make them go around the strip once they could have a schizoid experience...maybe I am wrong...maybe I will attain that nirvana just I take those last few breaths.....
#173 Posted by KaalChakra on June 21, 2005 10:47:28 pm
# 156
Excellent exegesis of the onion-peel model.
But couldn`t the same model be applied to explain any aspect of culture? There should be at least something distinctive about religion.
And, is the statement ``the very core of all religions embodies what we call `insaniyat``` empirically defensible or is it a feel-good assumption?
Was speaking to a Sikh friend. It occurred to me that Akaal and Sanaatan mean exactly the same thing. Interesting, isn`t it? :)
Excellent exegesis of the onion-peel model.
But couldn`t the same model be applied to explain any aspect of culture? There should be at least something distinctive about religion.
And, is the statement ``the very core of all religions embodies what we call `insaniyat``` empirically defensible or is it a feel-good assumption?
Was speaking to a Sikh friend. It occurred to me that Akaal and Sanaatan mean exactly the same thing. Interesting, isn`t it? :)
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