Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

If this is what a kalal is, I would rather be a kalal than anything else

Kalal is a distiller

Ramgaria is Tarkhan is a carpenter

Earlier sikh sardars were refered by their professions, and ALL the followers or soldiers of their camps regardless of their background, came to be known by their professions or last names. And, this didn`t happen till misls were formed. Before that, there were no such distinctions.
Bhapa (means elder brother or father) - Hindus and Sikhs from NWFP and Pothohar (Rawalpindi area) who do commerce are bhapas. They could also be from Sindh too (this makes caste and other such things stupid and baseless) ....usually the last names are Bhatia, Arora, Sethi etc.

Kaure,

What is Bhapa, Kalal, Tarkhan, and Ramgaria?

Request to all, if you are using some term which others may not understand, a small description would be very handy..

The two biggest misls were the Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia. Both the Jassa Singhs were respected and feared by other `jutt` misaldars.

Ahluwalias are called ``kalals``. Their numbers were about 250,000 at the time. It is stupid and absurd to utter that all the `kalals` of Punjab formed an army and overnight became splendid soldiers. And that there were 250,000 kalals (distillers) in Punjab???!!! Same thing of Ramgarias.

If the chief`s profession or ancestoral profession was a kalal or tarkhan, it doesn`t mean everyone in his army was from that profession. Most likely, the opposite was true since the caste lines were eradicated in the Khalsa brotherhood.

I have relatives and friends who hail from both the communities. They are a diverse lot. They come from different races, cultures, linguistic backgrounds. Some of them are from Haryana and are `jat` farmers - speak Haryanvi. A few are from NWFP and are bhapas - and excel at commerce and are one of the richest in Amritsar and Ludhiana. Others are from Lyalpur ditrict and were landlords who got land in E Pb. and now are prospering there. Their physical features are as diverse too. Some are fair and look like Pathans (his son is really dark), others look like bhapas. The ones who hail from Haryana have the Haryanvi Jat features and physiques. Calling them all kalals, ramgarias, jutts etc. would be phudu pana.

It is dumb to keep on fighting over caste in Punjab, where there is too much greyarea - it is utter nonsense.....

Let us just remember that the origin of all religious fanaticism and its branches can be traced to teaching children false propaganda - in an age in which they are very very impressionable.

Let the government ban alll religious teachings to children - a practice prevalent in all communities, especially christianity, which encourages churches to build schools to corrupt young mind ( of non christians as well ), and sikhism, which encourages children to wear turbans - like muslims as well.

Lets teach children the truth, and start by banning teaching non truths.

this is a cool board, with only dyno and kaura giving a ``spirited`` discourse :-)

i am also a big fan of castes in india (different than caste based discrimination). one big hobby i have is trying to guess caste of a person by looking at him/her. this has gotten me in trouble (some women dont like my staring at them). i have a 76.4% accuracy in +ve indentification of kayastha men an 84.3% for kayastha women, may they be from Lucknow of Poona. heh heh.

hindvi has a good point. but the case for peaceful is not yet made. maybe after many years of peaceful debate...i wonder if non-hindus believe if the muslim conversions were non-coercive. conversions to christianity (except goa) and sikh etc are generally accepted as peaceful and voluntary.

#119 `` I use it in the sense they use it to mean clan or gotra.``

..that should be `clan or subcaste`.

Dost mittar - ``BTW I have no problem in calling me pro-hindu or pro-India, which I am``

In what say sense can an atheist be pro any religion? Like I said, you are confused.


``BTW you should google around and learn some more about gotra. In Pakistan, it seems, gotra is considered synonymous with caste, which it isn`t. There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system. ``


In actual fact the word `gotra` is not used in West Punjab. I picked it up from some Sikhs and I use it in the sense they use it to mean clan or gotra. Someone on another chatboard has already told me that strictly speaking this is an incorrect usage of the word.

#116 satyamvada ``
As usual - the Indians on the list have more solid facts than the pakis. ``

Fcuk off, dickhead.

shishapa, satyamvada:

I have not done any scholarly study of gotras. When I went to Haridwar once, I was told by a prohit that all of us are descendants of eight rishis and get our gotras from them [he also told me what my gotra was but I did not bother to remember!]. A bit of googling however shows that there is quite a bit of difference of opinion on this topic. Here is what one source which gives the eight names but also suggests that there are 49 gotras:

``There are 49 established Hindu gotras. All members of a particular gotra are believed to possess certain common characteristics by way of nature or profession. Many theories have been propounded to explain this system. According to the brahminical theory, the Brahmins are the direct descendants of seven or eight sages who are believed to be the mind-born sons of Brahma. They are Gautama, Bharadvaja, Vishvamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishtha, Kashyapa and Atri. To this list, Agastya is also sometimes added. These eight sages are called gotrakarins from whom all the 49 gotras (especially of the Brahmins) have evolved. For instance, from Atri sprang the Atreya and Gavisthiras gotras. According to this theory, the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas do not have a gotra and are to Gotraspeak out the gotras of their Purohita during the various ceremonies. However according to some Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, they are also descendants of these sages. Because of this, many a time a Brahmin, Kshatriya and a Vaishya claim the same gotra. The members of a gotra however need not necessarily be blood relations, but could be spiritual inheritors or descendants of a guru`s pupils.``

about gotras (thanks to google..)
``There are 49 established Hindu gotras. All members of a particular gotra are believed to possess certain common characteristics by way of nature or profession. Many theories have been propounded to explain this system. According to the brahminical theory, the Brahmins are the direct descendants of seven or eight sages who are believed to be the mind-born sons of Brahma. They are Gautama, Bharadvaja, Vishvamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishtha, Kashyapa and Atri. To this list, Agastya is also sometimes added. These eight sages are called gotrakarins from whom all the 49 gotras (especially of the Brahmins) have evolved. For instance, from Atri sprang the Atreya and Gavisthiras gotras. According to this theory, the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas do not have a gotra and are to Gotraspeak out the gotras of their Purohita during the various ceremonies. However according to some Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, they are also descendants of these sages. Because of this, many a time a Brahmin, Kshatriya and a Vaishya claim the same gotra. The members of a gotra however need not necessarily be blood relations, but could be spiritual inheritors or descendants of a guru`s pupils.``

http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/gotra.htm

``There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system.``

I thought there were more than eight gotras. Do you have the names handy?
Is Shandilya gotra one of them?
In Maharashtra at least Deshastha BrahamaNs have many more gotras than Kokanastha BrahmaNs and Karhade BrahmaNs have and all of them have definitely more than eight.

As usual - the Indians on the list have more solid facts than the pakis.

However, a few corrections:

DM - there maybe dozens of `gotras` in any jaati - sometimes these gotras also
overlap.
Gotras are similiar to the `totem` representation of ancient peoples.

It so happens that India happens to have very very ancient traditions living
alongside and evolving for thousands of years. Unfortunately, it has so happened
that ``western sociology`` theories have infected some of the elites and have tried
to compartmentalize Indian society and these people have tied themselves up in
knots.

The worst of the ``western sociological theories`` imposed on free-India was in the
60`s and 70`s - and we saw the corresponding institutional and political results of
such impositions in the 80`s and 90`s.

Luckily there is an ever-strengthening local indic scholarship which is more India
friendly these days.
Hopefully the worst days are behind us - in the next few years, scholarship on
the jaati system in India should be able to throw off the western theories and present
a truer representation of local ideas.

rahulmal#114:

I have read parts of Romila Thapar. Actually, I was more impressed with her brother, Romesh Thapar, a one-time Indira advisor, Fellow-traveller, an artist (acted in Householder)but above all, a true believer in free debate. The Seminar Magazine he started [http://www.india-seminar.com/] is the best source of information on all sides of the debate on any issue.

Here is an example of my own experience of caste in a large village near Rani Khet. When I went there as a research student, everyone would ask what my caste was. From my name they thought that I was a brahmin; when I denied that, they insisted to know more. And when my caste did not fit into their caste system, they decided that I was a ``Thakur``. From then on, I was ``Thakur Saab`` whether I liked it or not.

dionysus:
BTW I have no problem in calling me pro-hindu or pro-India, which I am. But I am also pro-canada, pro-panjab and pro-sikh and anti-anti-Pakistan.

Chaudhury Dionysus (hope u don`t mind the title after your spirited defence of Jats),

Please check out Ancient India by Romila Thapar. Two reasons why I recommend the book:

1) I`ve read the book. It is a good read even if you are not a History buff.
2) Thapar is considered a vamp by Sangh parivar and she is as anti-Hindu as it gets :-) This will satisfy some of your own stringent criteria which tend to label anything remotely against your preconceived notions as pro-Hindu, pro-India `spin`.

There is another one by a foreign author which is a good read just for the sake of prose, I`ll post the name tomorrow.

DMji,

If you`ve not read Thapar, you also try it.

DrLokraj & Greek philosopher,

Could you please share the pearls of wisdom and jokes with other people on this board who are not too well-versed in Punjabi :-)

This discussion was really good, I learnt a lot of new things. In the style of McDonald`s ad, `I`m loving it`. If only Amit, Nazar Saab and SameerJB (who has gone incommunicado) could join in, it would be a riot...

dionysus#112:

``Caste heirarchy in nonBrahmincal Punjab was never rigid but that isn`t the case in Hindustan. As usual of course you are putting your pro-India pro-Hindu spin on things. Are you really an atheist? You seem a bit confused to me.``

LOL. No, I am fascinated by sociology and social anthrapology, including castes. I do not believe in caste system and consider it the greatest weakness of the Indian society in general and Hindus in particular.

My statement regarding non-rigidity of caste was not based on Panjab which, as you correctly pointed out, did not have a brahminical supremacy. It was actually based on studies by eminent sociologists, including the best known Indian Sociologist, M.N. Srinivas who did his studies in South India. I did my own modest study of inter-caste relations in the Almora District of U.P (now Uttranchal).

BTW you should google around and learn some more about gotra. In Pakistan, it seems, gotra is considered synonymous with caste, which it isn`t. There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system.

dost-mittar ``Rajput names Parihar, Bhatti and Sial.``

I didn`t mention Sials. Sials in West Punjab are Jatts (Heer in the Heer Ranjha story was Sial). The Sials who are Khatris are a different people altogether. It`s just the case of different clans having the same or similar sounding names by conicdnce like Kakkar Pathans and Khatris or indeed Punjabi Jatt and Hindustani Jaat.


``There do not seem to be many Khatris in Pakistan and they seem to be looked down upon whereas in India Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour.``

Khatris are opening up now. For a long time they were buried under the ``Sheikh`` category. But now they are starting to use and display their gotras on their houses. I have two Kapoors, an Uppal and a Sethi in my own mohalla. One of them I know personally and he is VERY proud of Khatri suceess in India.

``ndia Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour``

That`s not my experience with the Sikhs, at least. Maybe outside of East Punjab it is a badge of honour.

``Caste hierarchy among the Hindus was never as rigid as it was made out to be.``

Caste heirarchy in nonBrahmincal Punjab was never rigid but that isn`t the case in Hindustan. As usual of course you are putting your pro-India pro-Hindu spin on things. Are you really an atheist? You seem a bit confused to me.