Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

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on ramgarhia`s and ahluwalias

[quote]You`ve told this about...ummm....a million times now. Do you have some kind of inferiority complex to Jatts or something? You`re not somekind of Tarkhan or a Kalal low-caste riff-raff with serious self-esteem issues are you? j/k [/quote]

Are YOU some kind of retard who thinks Tarkhans and Kalal`s are lower?

Do you think the Jats who followed Jassa Singh Ramgarhia (a Tarkhan) were low to, ot the one`s that followed Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, were low.

Idiots like you bring shame to the Jat biradri. Kaursach is right, that Jats were considered Sudra`s under the caste system.

Our boasts are idle and full of ho air. You would know that if you knew how many of our brothers are commiting suicide in Punjab.

[quote]
If Sikhism elevated the status of Jatts from where and how did Chaudhry Anwar Ghumman, Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nawab Amanullah Khan Sial, Chaudhry Hammad Nasir Chattha and MANY other Jatt Sardars in West Punjab get their 10s of thousands of acres? Was it a gift from the Khalsa. I doubt it somehow. [/quote]

These Jatts became Musaman`s to grab land. Prior to that they had nothing. they were Nung`s.

[quote]You`ve told this about...ummm....a million times now. Do you have some kind of inferiority complex to Jatts or something? You`re not somekind of Tarkhan or a Kalal low-caste riff-raff with serious self-esteem issues are you? j/k [/quote]

Are YOU some kind of retard who thinks Tarkhans and Kalal`s are lower?

Do you think the Jats who followed Jassa Singh Ramgarhia (a Tarkhan) were low to, ot the one`s that followed Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, were low.

Idiots like you bring shame to the Jat biradri. Kaursach is right, that Jats were considered Sudra`s under the caste system.

Our boasts are idle and full of ho air. You would know that if you knew how many of our brothers are commiting suicide in Punjab.

[quote]
If Sikhism elevated the status of Jatts from where and how did Chaudhry Anwar Ghumman, Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nawab Amanullah Khan Sial, Chaudhry Hammad Nasir Chattha and MANY other Jatt Sardars in West Punjab get their 10s of thousands of acres? Was it a gift from the Khalsa. I doubt it somehow. [/quote]

These Jatts became Musaman`s to grab land. Prior to that they had nothing. they were Nung`s.

Simple facts to consider.

1. Before 1550s there was no language called ``Hindustan``, ``Hindi`` or ``Urdu``., but
Sanskrit, Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Tamil, Telugu, Oriya, Manipuri existed.

2. Akbar created Urdu for army after 1550s for communication purposes.
Then in 1870s Hindi was created which basically was spoken language
of cities in the belt from Delhi to Allahabad (in country side people
spoke Braj Bhasha and other dialects) written in Sanskrit script. Same
language was also written in Persian/Arabic script. was majority of
people (including writes as Munshi Prem Chand) used Persian/Arabic script
for their hindustani writings.

3. Early 1910s., Devnagari script was actively taught in some schools in North
India., and by 1947 it 100% replaced Urdu/Arabic script.

Urdu and Hindi are nothing but political manifestations of their respective periods
at the expense of the local languages.

Original Braj Bhasha, Sanskrit, bundeli,awadhi, dhanwar, chhatisgarhi, sansi,kabutri,
bareli, Marwari, kannauji, Maithali, Rohtaki, Pahari, malvi, etc languages were/are
constantly being eradicated to asssimiliate them into Delhi/Lucknow/Aligarh
language called Hindustani (which is still the language of the ruling feudal of
India and Pakistan).

#161

Jang, I`m going to have to disagree with you. Japan has not abandoned its caste system, it`s only been modified. Military and politics is still dominated by the descendants of the samurai. The main difference is that the economy is driven by the descendents of the merchant class, who were reviled for being leeches during the Shogunate, but now are rolling in money. The outcastes, notably the eta and the burukumin, are still heavily discriminated against and can`t find work, housing, or an education. The Japanese also discriminate heavily against the indigineous Ainu population.

#161

Jang, I`m going to have to disagree with you. Japan has not abandoned its caste system, it`s only been modified. Military and politics is still dominated by the descendants of the samurai. The main difference is that the economy is driven by the descendents of the merchant class, who were reviled for being leeches during the Shogunate, but now are rolling in money. The outcastes, notably the eta and the burukumin, are still heavily discriminated against and can`t find work, housing, or an education. The Japanese also discriminate heavily against the indigineous Ainu population.

Hi dionysus and others,

These discussions on Jatts and other martial ethnic groups is awsome, I suggest anyone interested in this type of history should join a non-relegious, secular and an all around view point on Jatts, sites ran by Hindu Jatts are blatantly biased and not welcoming, I suggest you join www.Jattworld.com for an easy to follow and discuss forum.

Hope to see you all there!

regards,

Dionysus,

You owe Chowkies an article on Punjab - its people, culture and History.

HP,

I`ve no idea how a silly article on Bollywood turned into a meaty discussion on History, not that I mind it :-) Count me in on the Kapurthala theory. Sindh History would be cool.

Dionysus #154: ``In fact Punjab was the heart of their empire. They never ruled Kashmir proper so far as a I know. They ruled up to the Pir Panjal mountains and the sub Pir Panja area, though made a part of modern Jammu and Kashmir by the British, is in fact historicaly a part of the greater Punjab. Chowk`s own Romair comes from this region, I believe.``

Very impressive analysis. This seems to fit in with where most of my family comes from. It is basically all Punjabi, in terms of language etc. I had never been able to find out the historical facts of why it was so Punjabi, yet not really from Punjab, geographically........

You are a virtual encyclopedia on the history of Punjab. Where and how have you acculmulated all this knowledge? And would be quite interested on any more info you have on current Punjab and its extensions into Kashmir. Much of Pakistan`s Kashmir is actually more Punjabi than the Sariaki parts of Punjab, itself; whose center Multan was, actually historically, a center of Sind and not of Punjab...........

I am trying to find some information on Porus and Alexander. Apparently, some new info has appeared indicating he did not defeat Porus. And may have actually been defeated or avoided the fight. Some trascripts from some soldiers. And the fact that, legend has it he gave the land back to Porus, after defeating him, since he was so impressed with Porus` replies. This would go against Alexander`s nature. He would have conquered the place and there should be some Greek blood in the present inhabitants of that area, much like there is in the individuals in the Northern terroritories of Pakistan. Don`t know. Do you have any info............

Thanks Rahulmal for an excellent write up and the ensuing discussion. I have learned new things about the Punjab, Punjabis and relations between the people in that area. Before reading this article, my knowledge about the cultural diversity in Punjab was limited. I always thought the Kapoors are Kapoors because they are/were from Kapurthala!

People were talking about Jats here, In the Lower Sindh, we do have people that go by “Jut”. Mostly farmers now, but they did take part in some wars between the Brits, Sindhi and Moghals at different times of the history.

I hope someday I am able to put together something about Sindh’s history for chowk readers.

Thanks.

162,

that is why I said ``EXCEPT``.

BTW, I do not recognize those borders - that were drawn on political perversity and prejudices. I was talking about united Pb. Even if they are part of Haryana, they can still be part of a region.

Was caught up with things so this reaction is kinda late and might be a digression from the current discussion (which I haven`t had a chance to read)...but just felt like clarifying and reacting to certain things...you might have to refer back to your posts. thanks.

#77 Humsab,
When I meant it was an oxymoron, I meant it visually as in the picture it created in my mind, and not linguistially. You ask why is it okay to have public religious identity but wrong to have ethnic racial identity.That`s a very important question you raise and I would say that ethnic racial identity in the Indian context took a very ugly turn in the form of the divisiveness and rigidity of the caste system. To overcome this, a complete rejection of caste was advocated by many including the Sikh Gurus. Sikh men are consequently supposed to write Singh as their last name and women Kaur. Many have said that the `uniformity` thus created is very boring, uninteresting, so on and so forth. However, when asserting your ethnic racial identity began to come at the cost of depraving another or asserting your superiority over another, it was understanable in my opinion to give a call to do away with it completely. Of course I understand that in reality it is otherwise and that the makers of the movie had no intention of hurting anyone`s sentiments. Nevertheless, I would`ve found it acceptable and understandable if religious bodies (which do deal with ideal situations because they follow religion which is itself arguably idealistic at some level), would`ve given a simple, non-iflammatory press statement and/or conveyed to the producers their viewpoint. Nothing more. I`m not advocating violent protests of the movie or a ban for that matter. If people have an issue with the movie, they can, and have a right, to express their opinion in a democratic matter. Nothing wrong with that.

When you say, ``All of us should simply think about good old days when we could laugh at ourselves and also others without bothering too much about their senstivities and everyone was expected to take humour in the right spirit``, I understand your sentiments behind this, but I feel that this can take a dangerous turn as anything could be passed off as humour at the expense of hurting others.

#76 Rahulmal,
I`m anything but well versed with the tenets of Sikhi! I do acknowledge that as far as caste in Sikhism is concerned, ground realities are different. However, don`t you think that a religious body should uphold the principles that a religion stands for irrespective of what the ground realities are? Female feoticide in India is the highest in Punjab, so should one just accept it as ground reality and move on? Some people think it to be more `practical` to abort the female feotus and apparently there is a `high demand` for this in Punjab. Demands of practicality, among other things, supposedly dictate such decisions too; so should it be left at that or should society including religious bodies evoking ``ersatz concepts like `pillars of religion` `` do something about it?

#123 Parthaab,
I`m surprised that no one took notice of your post or reacted to it. Not all religious fundamentalism has its roots in teaching false propaganda to children. Definitely some of it does, but not all. Adults might be as impressionable as children at times and fundamentalism might also be a reaction to something rather than the result of being taught at a `biased` institution. You say that governments should ban all religious teachings in schools. Religion in its essence was never meant to `corrupt` anyone and I don`t see how banning religious teachings in schools will help curb fundamentalism because children can be brainwashed even at home.

`` ...christianity, which encourages churches to build schools to corrupt young mind ( of non christians as well )...`` Parthaab, it is a fact though that they have brought literacy, regardless of the biases along with it, to even remote areas. Would you rather that people remain illiterate? In the towns and cities you do have a choice to go to other schools don`t you?

Banning religion or religious teachings is not a panacea to the world`s ills. People should have the freedom to practice any religion, or not to, if they so choose. If I feel like wearing a turban, veil or cross, I should be able to. There is nothing wrong with religious `symbols` or paraphernalia as long as they are not mandatory or forced on anyone. People wouldn`t stop killing each other if they were barred from wearing religious symbols at schools. The hold of fundamentalist idealogy is in my opinion probably much deeper than that.

``Lets teach children the truth, and start by banning teaching non truths.`` What is the truth (if there is any)?

Re: # 160
kaura ji,
Chandigarh is Union Territory,though capital of Punjab
Paonta sahib is in Sirmaur district of Himachal Pradesh
Ambala and Yamuna Nagar are districts of Haryana

The Ropar district and parts of Patiala district are called ``puaadh``,though broadly it is counted in Malwa

#142 urstruly, why dont you go watch newsreels circa 1972? those filmed in a pretty race-course?

Regarding Caste: One nation which has successfully transcended caste is the mighty Nippon. This nation had a very long history of a rigid caste system as a backbone of their society, a divine emperor, samurais, peasants, okinawans and untouchables. One bomb, and they seem to have miraculously lost their caste baggage.

Rahulmal,

Malwa is the region between the river Ghaggar and Sutlej (EXCEPT the easternmost part ie Chandigarh, Paonta, Ambala, Yamunanagar, etc.)

There is a difference between the KHALSA`s fight against invaders and Jaipal`s, Porus etc. KHALSA was the only force that defeated the invaders (except British of course). ALL others lost. Porus lost, Anang Jaipal lost, virks, kharals, - all lost.

KHALSA was the ONLY force that turned the tide from Khyber.

Do not base or develop your views solely on a few sites. Read as much as possible and then draw conclusions.

rahulmal
#152

One of the striking thing about many educated pakistanis is how much they use racist expressions of this type. Another amazing thing is the use of terms like ``chamar``, ``choora`` etc. as derogatory terms of abuse. Here is another gem from a letter to a pakistani newspaper:

``He has a Hindu’s mind, shrewd and sharp.``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_3-6-2005_pg3_6

The equivalent statement in India would be considered an example of ``hindu fascism`` and would never be accepted by educated people. Definitely deserves comment as you have done...

rahulmal ``Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well.``

Oh come one, you are doubting they were Punjabis? I never heard of ANYONE doubting the Punjabi ethnicity of the Hindu Shahis. If you`re gonna claim they came from Bihar or Delhi then I`m going to start laughing.

In fact Punjab was the heart of their empire. They never ruled Kashmir proper so far as a I know. They ruled up to the Pir Panjal mountains and the sub Pir Panja area, though made a part of modern Jammu and Kashmir by the British, is in fact historicaly a part of the greater Punjab. Chowk`s own Romair comes from this region, I believe. Anandpal hid in the thickly forested hills of this region, epecially Poonch, for years and used it to launch attacks agains the Turks. It was never used by any Punjabi resistance again until the rise of the Sikh Misaldars, who regularily fled there.I find this really strange and puzzling as it is perfect country to hide in and launch attacks from, much better than the Punjab plains.

The other areas you allude to, the present day NWFP province of Pakistan and parts of the eastern Afghanistan, including Kabul and the Jalabad valley were inhabited by Punjabis at that time. Pathan migrants only became a majority in this region by the 17th century. There are still pockets of Punjabis speakers in this area. So Jaipal`s empire was Punjabi through and through.


``BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.``

Practically the whole of North Indian and Pakistani history is from folklore. (It is also a battleground for competing ideologies, countries and castes, but that`s another matter). You think anyone, Indian or Turko-Afghan, had ever heard of Prithvi Raj Chauhan before the British `discovered` him in Rajasthani folk songs?

HP#146:

I have a feeling that if I said ``Good Morning!`` to you, you will shout back ``what`s so good about it``. For from supporting, that post is suggesting that the disease was/is so virulent that it infected whoever came near it - buddhists, christians, sikhs, muslims, semites, goras...everyone!

harimour#148:
As far back as I know, banks in India would give loans to individuals only against solid collateral. If you were from a red-lined district the banks would treat you the same whether you are black or white. In the Indian case, the banks chose caste as a criterion and not the person`s assets or collateral.

Re: # 153

Cool :-)

I was more concerned about the real information getting relegated to background, because more effort goes into scoring points over each other. Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well. The NCERT books talk about the fateful battle of Jayapal with Ghazni. He lost. Having been disgraced, he lit his funeral pyre. I`ll check out the libraries and see if I can get more material on them. While Googling, I found that some scholar in Islamabad has done serious work on HinduShahi dynasty. If you have any contacts in that area, could you please check it out...

BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.

Re: # 153

Cool :-)

I was more concerned about the real information getting relegated to background, because more effort goes into scoring points over each other. Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well. The NCERT books talk about the fateful battle of Jayapal with Ghazni. He lost. Having been disgraced, he lit his funeral pyre. I`ll check out the libraries and see if I can get more material on them. While Googling, I found that some scholar in Islamabad has done serious work on HinduShahi dynasty. If you have any contacts in that area, could you please check it out...

BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.

Re: # 150
Indian Punjab is divided into 3 parts-

1.Area between Raavi and Beas is called Maajha(Amritsar and Gurdas Pur Districs)

2.Between Beas and Satluj(jalandhar,Kapurthala,hoshiar pur,nawa shehar districts) is called doaba and

3.Rest of Punjab,to north of Satluj is called Maalwa.

I have no idea since when Rajputs started using Singh as suffix,but this has nothing to do with the creation of Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh(on 13 April 1699) after which sikhs started adding Singh to their names.

rahulmal ``Calling others `Black Bhaiyas`, distorting nicks `rahulmul` and pumping things like `you are full of it`, is disgraceful.``

No it`s not. It`s Chowk, and it`s fun. Are you new to this place? BTW rahulmul was a typo and seeing as you seem to have no objections to it I`ll stick to Khushwant Singh`s `contemptible Hindustanis` from now on. :)

Dionysus,

I understand your urge to share bits of information, but I fail to understand the fury and froth that accompanies your posts. Calling others `Black Bhaiyas`, distorting nicks `rahulmul` and pumping things like `you are full of it`, is disgraceful. From your posts I can make out a well read man. So, why don`t you just say whatever you want to, without resorting to profanities and name-calling. What say :-)

rahulmul ``Except for Purus (or Porus) taking on the mighty Alexander, I can`t think of any instance where Pbis fought against external aggressions.``

``I agree Pbis became a force to reckon with only after Khalsa. ``

LOL! You black Bhayyas are really full of yourself these days, aren`t you? It isn`t surprising I suppose since after 800 years of slavery the British popped out of no where and gifted you a huge empire.


Jaipal of Lahore, his sons Ananadpal and Tirlochanpal and the various Punjabi dynasties that in those days ruled places like the Swat and Peshawar Valleys, led the strongest resitance that the Turko-Afghans EVER faced in 800 years of invading South Asia till days of Ranjeet Singh. They ultimately were defeated but they managed to keep their women out of the Turko -Afghan beds, unlike your Rajasthani `heroes`. So even though he lost in the end I think Punjabis can be very proud of Jaipal.


Later on the Ghakkhars of Pindi, Khattars of Attock, Gondals of Malikwal, Virks, Kharrals and Bhattis of the Sandal and Neeli Baars always led stout restistance against invaders. Ahmed Khan Kharrals is famous for leading resistance to the British after the collapose of the Lahore Durbar. In all these resitances there was never a coordinated effort to fight the invaders across the whole of Punjab, the various Bars and Doabs acted independently and as a consequence were never able to resist the invaders sucessfuly. But I can say with confidence that every invader met resistance till he reach Patiala. After that the `contemptible Hindustanis ` (Sardar Khushwant Singh`s description, not mine) were lining up to serve the invaders.

Dr Saab,

Is Malwa some area in Punjab? I saw that Kaura and Doinysus have mentioned it in their posts. I was only aware of Malwa plateau which is in M.P.

I agree Pbis became a force to reckon with only after Khalsa. If one excludes the last Guru, then the first great general was Banda. He was a brave Rajput who had taken to asceticism. Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage and ordered slaughter of buffaloes. This enraged the Rajput who lashed out at Guru for desecrating his sacred sanctuary. Guru told him, ``You are fretting over the killing of buffaloes in your courtyard, while people are being slaughtered like cattle in your entire country. Realizing his mistake, he fell on his knees and joined Khalsa.

Another question: Any idea when did Rajputs start using Singh in their names? Every time I turn the pages of History books, I come across names like PrithviRaj Chahmana, Durgadas Rathod, Rana Pratap Sisodiya etc...this Singh thing looks recent to me. Do you have any idea?

Re: # 146
Rahul,I dont know about the remote past,but in 18th century,befor Ranjit Singh came on the scene,Jassa Singh Ahluwalia did this and also the other misals.

Following description is from sikh history and reveals some disturbing facts about some rulers of that time which gives an idea why the invaders were successful.

When Ahmad Shah Abdali was engaged in his campaign against the Marathas at Panipat in 1761, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia plundered Sirhind and Dialpur, seized some places in Ferozepur district and took under his possession Jagraon and Kot Isa Khan on the other bank of Sutlej. He captured Hoshiarpur and Naraingurh in Ambala and levied tribute from the chief of Kapurthala. He then marched towards Jhang. Sial chief offered stout resistance. When Ahmad Shah left in Feb. 1761, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia again attacked Sirhind and extended his territory as far as Tarn Taran. He crossed Bias and capture Sultanpur. In 1762, Ahmad Shah again appeared and a fierce battle took place. It is called Ghalughara, a great holocaust. Jassa singh fled to Kangra hills after Sikh forces were totally routed. After the departure of Ahmad Shah Abdali, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia attacked Sirhind, it was razed to ground and the afghan Governor Zen Khan was killed. This was a great victory to Sikhs who were rulers of all the area around the Sirhind. Jassa Singh hastily paid visit to Hari Mandir at Amritsar, and he made amends and restored it to original shape as it was defiled by Ahmad Shah by slaughtering cows in its precincts.

Ahmad Shah died in June 1773. After his death power of Afghans declined in Punjab. Taimur Shah ascended the throne at Kabul. By then misals, had established themselves in Punjab. They had under their control the area as far as Saharnpur in east, Attock in west, Kangra Jammu in north and Multan in south. Efforts were made by Afghan rulers to dislodge Sikhs from their citadels. Taimur Shah attacked Multan and defeated the Bhangis. The Bhangi sardars, Lehna Singh, and Sobha singh were driven out of Lahore in 1767 by the Abdali but soon reoccupied it. They remained in power in Lahore till 1793-the year when Shah Zaman succeeded to the throne of Kabul.

Another menace to Sikhs was the Pathan ruler of Kasur who was loyal to Kabul. During the Abdali attacks, he took side with him and plundered the Sikh territory. Now again assistance was promised to Shah by Kasur ruler, Nizam-Ud-Din-Khan.

The first attempt by Shah Zaman was made in 1793. He came upto Hassan Abdal from where he sent an army of 7000 strong cavalry under Ahmad Shahnachi but the Sikhs totally routed them. It was a great setback to Shah Zaman but again in 1795 he reorganized forces and attacked Hassan Abdal, snatched Rohtas from Sukerchikias, whom leader was Ranjit Singh. who suffered at Shah Zaman` hands but did not lose courage. However, shah had to be back in Kabul as an invasion was apprehended on his own country from the west. After he went back, Ranjit dislodged the Afghans from Rohtas.

Shah Zaman could not sit idle. In 1796 he moved, crossed Indus for the third time and dreamt of capturing Delhi. His ambition knew no bounds. By now he had collected 3000 strong afghan army. He was confident a large number of Indians will join with him. Nawab of Kasur had already assured him help. Sahib Singh of Patiala betrayed his countrymen and declared his intentions of helping Shah Zaman. He had family traditions of loyalty to all the invaders who attacked India. Shah Zaman was also assured help by the Rohillas, Wazir of Oudh, and Tipu Sultan of Mysore. Shah was bent upon to finish the infidels. The news of Shah Zaman invasion spread like wild fire. Chicken hearted people started fleeing to hills for safety. Heads of Misals, though bound to give protection to the people as they were collecting Rakhi tax from them were the first to leave the people in lurch. In Dec. Shah occupied territory upto Jhelum. When he reached Gujarat Sahib singh bhangi panicked and left the place. He could not offer any resistance.

Next was the territory of Ranjit singh. He was alert and raised an army of 5000 horsemen. But they were inadequately armed with only spears and muskets. The afghans were equipped with heavy artillery. Ranjit singh thought of a stiff united fight against the invaders. He came to Amritsar. A congregation of Sarbat Khalasa was called and many Sikh sardars answered the call. An almost unanimous opinion prevailed that Shah zaman`s army should be allowed to enter the Punjab, and they all should retire to hills.

However, Sada Kaur thought otherwise and exhorted the Sikhs to fight to the last. She persuaded Ranjit singh to be bold enough to face the Afghan army and offer stiff resistance. Forces were reorganized under the command of Ranjit singh and they marched towards Lahore. They were able to gave Afghans a crushing defeat in several villages and ultimately surrounded the city of Lahore. Sorties were made in night in which they would kill a few Afghan soldiers and then leave the city in the thick of darkness. Following this tactic they were able to dislodge Afghans at several places.

In 1797, Shah Zaman, suddenly left for Afghanistan as his brother Mahmud had revolted. Shahanchi khan with considerable force was left at Lahore. The Sikhs however followed Shah upto Jhelum and snatched many goods from him. The Sikhs returned and in the way were attacked by the army of Shahnachi khan near Ram Nagar. The Sikhs routed his army. It was the first major achievement of Ranjit Singh. He became the hero of the land of Five Rivers and his reputation spread far and wide.

Again in 1798 Shah Zaman attacked Punjab to avenge his defeat in 1797, people took refuge in hills. Sarbat Khalsa was again called and Sada Kaur again persuaded Sikhs to fight till the last man. This time even Muslims were not spared by Shah Zaman forces and he won Gujarat very easily. Sada Kaur aroused the sense of Sikhs of national honor and if they had left Amritsar then she will command the forces against Afghans. She said an Afghani soldier was no match to a Sikh soldier . They would be give befitting reply and by the grace of Sat Guru they would be successful.

The Afghans had plundered the towns and villages as they had vowed and declared openly that they would exterminate the Sikhs; but in the process the Muslims suffered most as Hindus and Sikhs had already left for the hills. The Muslims thought that they would not be touched but their hopes were belied and their provisions were forcible taken away by the Afghans.

Shah Zaman sought help of raja Sansar Chand of Kangra, that he will not gave any food or shelter to Sikhs. He agreed. Shah Zaman attacked Lahore and Sikhs were surrounded from all sides, they had to fight a grim battle. The Afghans occupied Lahore on Nov. 1798, and planned to attack Amritsar. Ranjit Singh collected his Men and faced forces about 8 Km from Amritsar. It was a well-matched encounter which forced Afghans at last to retire. They were humiliated and fled towards Lahore. Ranjit Singh pursued them and surrounded Lahore. Afghan supply lines were cut. Crops were burnt and other provisions plundered so that they did not fall into Afghan`s hands. The Afghans never expected such a humiliating defeat at the hands of Sikhs. Nizam-ud.din of Kasur attacked Sikhs near Shahdara on the banks of Ravi, but his forces were no match to Sikhs. Here too, Muslims suffered the most. The retreating Afghans and Nizam-ud-din forces plundered the town which antagonized the local people.

The Afghans struggled hard to dislodge Sikhs but in vain. Sikh cordon was so strong that they made impossible for the Afghans to break it and proceed towards Delhi. Ranjit singh became terror to them.

Ref dost-mittar #145

[Even the British practised caste in India. I was reading the history of India`s first bank started by the British 200 years ago. They charged an interest of 15% from brahmins and 60% from the lowest caste; in other words those who were least afford to pay were asked to pay the most.]

Why do you ascribe the interest rate differential to caste? Interest rates are based on perceived risk.... risk that the loan may be defaulted on.

Don`t US banks refuse to underwrite mortgages in poor (meaning, black) neighborhoods in a practice called redlining?

Re: # 145
not only this,shudras could not buy land in their own name-they could do that on power of attorney.Registration was not in their name.

Kaure,

Thanks for the Sikh History site!

Except for Purus (or Porus) taking on the mighty Alexander, I can`t think of any instance where Pbis fought against external aggressions...if someone knows please share...

#145 by dost-mittar

Congrets!

Finally you found some support for caste system from the civilized world. But what you quoted is still practiced in the US. Bad credit = high interest rate. So it is business… But you guys have to find some justification…

Even the British practised caste in India. I was reading the history of India`s first bank started by the British 200 years ago. They charged an interest of 15% from brahmins and 60% from the lowest caste; in other words those who were least afford to pay were asked to pay the most.

Urstruly (#142) ... you are taking indian movies too personally ... I wouldn`t do that ...

Continuing with my `theme` that all this harangue about caste is injurious to one`s health, check out a comprehensive set of pics of Delhi....a picture is worth a thousand words......


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=176678


Ultimately we`re gonna end up where we came from.....dust to dust, ashes to ashes......so , why bother?

The evolution of Indian movies from ``Ramu chacha bitiya bhaag gayee`` to ``haramzado, kutto, Pakistanio`` is pretty phenomenal.

#140...
this is a fact, there has been a solid migratory trend..to top it.. some of the biharis are actually bangla-deshis pretending to be biharis...the ones you guys got-rid of ..

Jang ``mr dyno.. in 20 years, biharis will be the majority panjabi in indian panjab``

haha...and you think the people who fought the Mughal, Afghan and British empires to defend their rights are going to stand by and watch their country colonized by Bhayahland??? .



``you believe ``others`` screwed the gullible panjabis, no greed on their part whatsoever.``

Actually it was Dr. Lokraj who expressed that opinion and I agreed with it to some extent.

mr dyno.. in 20 years, biharis will be the majority panjabi in indian panjab. you believe ``others`` screwed the gullible panjabis, no greed on their part whatsoever. if that keeps you comfortable and peaceful no problem. however, incoerrectly resolved issues would tend to errupt again due to existing fundamental conditions. so peace.

drlokraj #135,
``Agreed 100%.And this was all started by non Punjabis.``
Yup, kill each other like madmen and then blame non-Punjabis for that.

kaurasach:

I have a feeling that you equate khatris with bhapas; Nanda, Sethi, Puri, Bhatia, Arora are all khatri names. Bhapa, as you know, is a term West Panjabi Hindus and Sikhs used for older brother) and I suspect this is how this term originated in the post-partition days.

dionysus:
Once again, you misunderstood. I said pro-hindu and pro-sikh but I could also have added pro-muslim. Culturally, too, I am equally comfortable in mulsim, hindu and sikh cultures as should perhaps be clear from my posts.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Re: # 135 lokraj ``Agreed 100%.And this was all started by non Punjabis. ``

It was but when one section of Punjab, the Punjabi Hindus, became more loyal to religion than blood - a situation that still exists today - it was inevitable.

Re: # 131
``I agree. I also believe it is tragic that Punjabis ended up fighting over religion when we all, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, are of the same Punjabi Hindu stock.``

Agreed 100%.And this was all started by non Punjabis.

Most original cities and towns in Punjab (including the Sivaliks) were named after or developed and established by Rajputs - most of them migrated from Rajputana as adventurors and conquerors.

---

Another rule of thumb (there are exceptions) I use is if there is lot of overlap of last name between Hindus and sikhs, chances are they are bhapas.

Nanda, Sethi, Puri, Bhatia, Arora etc. The Bhapas are fairly rich. Mohalla Sethian is still famous in (peshawar or pindi - i forget).

That brings another interesting question, WHAT about muslim `bhapa` like Najam Sethi (The Friday Times publisher)?

Bhatias are ``Bhatra`` - A few days back I read there are ``Bhatra`` from Rajasathan. It is all BIG mumbo jumbo. A tribe that does small time gypsy style trade and marry their girls very young.

130,

The STUPIDITY of it all. I used to wear a comfortabel `single` turban (5.5 m length of `vail` cloth). Everyone (including jutts) back then did. I was good at it. All of a sudden, ``Jutts`` and Jutt wannabes declared that single turbans are for Bhapas. ``Jutts`` should wear `double` or `bhoopi` (after Maharja Bhupinder Singh of Patiala) turban.

Friends and neighbors got me to buy 8 meters of heavy rubia. Nothing but perennial headache and `khrind` on the forehead and back of the head. The bhapas who wear this style at once are called jutts. The jutts who still wear the old single are called bhapas.

My uncle who wears the old single style is called a `bhapa`. His son wears that 8 meter ``aeroplane`` turban is called a jutt.

THANK GOD!! the vogue of 8m is over. People are reverting to double but small and light turbans.... like that younger Chhatwal wears. I think girls dig em. Girls pestered me to change to the smaller lighter materials.

IDIOTS!!

DM `` Sorry if I confused you. Being pro-hindu, pro-muslim or pro-sikh does not mean pro-hinduism, pro-sikhism or pro-islam.``

But why bring religon into it all in the high, holy, mystical, secular and democratic state of India? Patriotic Dutchmen don`t feel the need to be pro-Christian? Is this a tacit admission that India is a Hindu state after all?

#130 ``That is the reason, these sounds khali peepas like Dionysus make are absurd. ``

As I recall it, YOU were the one making castist farting sounds against Jatts. I NEVER make unprovoked attacks on people`s ethnicity or religion.


``It is dumb to keep on fighting over caste in Punjab, where there is too much greyarea - it is utter nonsense.....``

I agree. I also believe it is tragic that Punjabis ended up fighting over religion when we all, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, are of the same Punjabi Hindu stock.

DM,

this is strange. see if you can shed some light.

ARORA s are bhapas. I read somewhere that Aroras (Rorray in pbi) are originally from Sindh. They fled the Islamic conquest and expansion in that area, and went to Punjab and established trade.

That is the reason, these sounds khali peepas like Dionysus make are absurd.

I have relatives who are from Jhang, Peshawar, and Pindi, - they are bhapas. One family is Bedi (Nanak`s gotra). They are Bhapas - GO FIGURE!!!!

The stupidity of it all.....Most people put starch in their turbans before partition. We are from Malwa, but my grand parents spent most of their lives in W Punjab. So, some relatives wear starched turbans. People at once call them `Bhapas`. They are farmers, and speak Malwai from Ludhiana and Ropar area - the furthest anyone can be from a Bhapa. IDIOTS!!

dionysus:

Sorry if I confused you. Being pro-hindu, pro-muslim or pro-sikh does not mean pro-hinduism, pro-sikhism or pro-islam. And one can be a cultural hindu, sikh or muslim without believing in the myths or mythologies associated with their faiths.

kaura:
Are there any bhapas from Sindh? The definition of bhapa seems to keep expanding. The earliest I knew, the term was restricted to Rawalpindi Sikhs. Now, I discover that I, too, am a bhapa.

This seems a good point for the following quotes from ``Ancient indian social history` by Romila Thapar.

[quote]
In the Punjab the social stratification based on four-caste division presents its own problems. Brahmans rarely play a dominant role in the society of this region, the kshatriyas fade out after a while and the khatris who claim to be kshatriysas are invariably associated with professions more akin to the vaisya.
[quote]

[quote]
Alexander`s initial route was from the Peshaware plains across the Doab - rich, fertile lands supporting monarchical kingdoms sich as those of Ambhi, Puru and Saubhuti and a relatively sophisticated culture. In contrast to this was the stark, primitive habitat of the Sibi in the Shorkot region. Further south, in the bari dowb the oligarchies of the Malava and Ksudraka presented a more cheerful picture. It seems that the lower doabs were not as prosperous as the upper doabs.
[quote]

[quote]
It has been suggested that, at the end of the first and in the early half of the second millenia AD, there appears to have been a population movement with the Jats of Sind settling inthe Punjab mainly in the area between Chenab and Sutlej rivers, as also the watershed extending into easter Rajasthan and western Uttar pradesh. This was not merely a population movement for the jats were converted from pastoralism to agriculture; and crucial to the change was the technology of the persian water wheel.
[quote]

Much other interesting discussion including how the punjabi language developed from ``heterodox traditions, irrespective of whether they conform to Hindu or islamic traditions. The core of the religous traditions comes from groups of renouncers such as Nathpanthis, Bairagism, Sufis. The earlier group of renouncers, the Buddhists, had also been important in this region. The creation and diffusion of Punjabi language is also tied up with religous sects.``

If this is what a kalal is, I would rather be a kalal than anything else

Kalal is a distiller

Ramgaria is Tarkhan is a carpenter

Earlier sikh sardars were refered by their professions, and ALL the followers or soldiers of their camps regardless of their background, came to be known by their professions or last names. And, this didn`t happen till misls were formed. Before that, there were no such distinctions.
Bhapa (means elder brother or father) - Hindus and Sikhs from NWFP and Pothohar (Rawalpindi area) who do commerce are bhapas. They could also be from Sindh too (this makes caste and other such things stupid and baseless) ....usually the last names are Bhatia, Arora, Sethi etc.

Kaure,

What is Bhapa, Kalal, Tarkhan, and Ramgaria?

Request to all, if you are using some term which others may not understand, a small description would be very handy..

The two biggest misls were the Ahluwalia and Ramgarhia. Both the Jassa Singhs were respected and feared by other `jutt` misaldars.

Ahluwalias are called ``kalals``. Their numbers were about 250,000 at the time. It is stupid and absurd to utter that all the `kalals` of Punjab formed an army and overnight became splendid soldiers. And that there were 250,000 kalals (distillers) in Punjab???!!! Same thing of Ramgarias.

If the chief`s profession or ancestoral profession was a kalal or tarkhan, it doesn`t mean everyone in his army was from that profession. Most likely, the opposite was true since the caste lines were eradicated in the Khalsa brotherhood.

I have relatives and friends who hail from both the communities. They are a diverse lot. They come from different races, cultures, linguistic backgrounds. Some of them are from Haryana and are `jat` farmers - speak Haryanvi. A few are from NWFP and are bhapas - and excel at commerce and are one of the richest in Amritsar and Ludhiana. Others are from Lyalpur ditrict and were landlords who got land in E Pb. and now are prospering there. Their physical features are as diverse too. Some are fair and look like Pathans (his son is really dark), others look like bhapas. The ones who hail from Haryana have the Haryanvi Jat features and physiques. Calling them all kalals, ramgarias, jutts etc. would be phudu pana.

It is dumb to keep on fighting over caste in Punjab, where there is too much greyarea - it is utter nonsense.....

Let us just remember that the origin of all religious fanaticism and its branches can be traced to teaching children false propaganda - in an age in which they are very very impressionable.

Let the government ban alll religious teachings to children - a practice prevalent in all communities, especially christianity, which encourages churches to build schools to corrupt young mind ( of non christians as well ), and sikhism, which encourages children to wear turbans - like muslims as well.

Lets teach children the truth, and start by banning teaching non truths.

this is a cool board, with only dyno and kaura giving a ``spirited`` discourse :-)

i am also a big fan of castes in india (different than caste based discrimination). one big hobby i have is trying to guess caste of a person by looking at him/her. this has gotten me in trouble (some women dont like my staring at them). i have a 76.4% accuracy in +ve indentification of kayastha men an 84.3% for kayastha women, may they be from Lucknow of Poona. heh heh.

hindvi has a good point. but the case for peaceful is not yet made. maybe after many years of peaceful debate...i wonder if non-hindus believe if the muslim conversions were non-coercive. conversions to christianity (except goa) and sikh etc are generally accepted as peaceful and voluntary.

#119 `` I use it in the sense they use it to mean clan or gotra.``

..that should be `clan or subcaste`.

Dost mittar - ``BTW I have no problem in calling me pro-hindu or pro-India, which I am``

In what say sense can an atheist be pro any religion? Like I said, you are confused.


``BTW you should google around and learn some more about gotra. In Pakistan, it seems, gotra is considered synonymous with caste, which it isn`t. There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system. ``


In actual fact the word `gotra` is not used in West Punjab. I picked it up from some Sikhs and I use it in the sense they use it to mean clan or gotra. Someone on another chatboard has already told me that strictly speaking this is an incorrect usage of the word.

#116 satyamvada ``
As usual - the Indians on the list have more solid facts than the pakis. ``

Fcuk off, dickhead.

shishapa, satyamvada:

I have not done any scholarly study of gotras. When I went to Haridwar once, I was told by a prohit that all of us are descendants of eight rishis and get our gotras from them [he also told me what my gotra was but I did not bother to remember!]. A bit of googling however shows that there is quite a bit of difference of opinion on this topic. Here is what one source which gives the eight names but also suggests that there are 49 gotras:

``There are 49 established Hindu gotras. All members of a particular gotra are believed to possess certain common characteristics by way of nature or profession. Many theories have been propounded to explain this system. According to the brahminical theory, the Brahmins are the direct descendants of seven or eight sages who are believed to be the mind-born sons of Brahma. They are Gautama, Bharadvaja, Vishvamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishtha, Kashyapa and Atri. To this list, Agastya is also sometimes added. These eight sages are called gotrakarins from whom all the 49 gotras (especially of the Brahmins) have evolved. For instance, from Atri sprang the Atreya and Gavisthiras gotras. According to this theory, the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas do not have a gotra and are to Gotraspeak out the gotras of their Purohita during the various ceremonies. However according to some Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, they are also descendants of these sages. Because of this, many a time a Brahmin, Kshatriya and a Vaishya claim the same gotra. The members of a gotra however need not necessarily be blood relations, but could be spiritual inheritors or descendants of a guru`s pupils.``

about gotras (thanks to google..)
``There are 49 established Hindu gotras. All members of a particular gotra are believed to possess certain common characteristics by way of nature or profession. Many theories have been propounded to explain this system. According to the brahminical theory, the Brahmins are the direct descendants of seven or eight sages who are believed to be the mind-born sons of Brahma. They are Gautama, Bharadvaja, Vishvamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishtha, Kashyapa and Atri. To this list, Agastya is also sometimes added. These eight sages are called gotrakarins from whom all the 49 gotras (especially of the Brahmins) have evolved. For instance, from Atri sprang the Atreya and Gavisthiras gotras. According to this theory, the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas do not have a gotra and are to Gotraspeak out the gotras of their Purohita during the various ceremonies. However according to some Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, they are also descendants of these sages. Because of this, many a time a Brahmin, Kshatriya and a Vaishya claim the same gotra. The members of a gotra however need not necessarily be blood relations, but could be spiritual inheritors or descendants of a guru`s pupils.``

http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/gotra.htm

``There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system.``

I thought there were more than eight gotras. Do you have the names handy?
Is Shandilya gotra one of them?
In Maharashtra at least Deshastha BrahamaNs have many more gotras than Kokanastha BrahmaNs and Karhade BrahmaNs have and all of them have definitely more than eight.

As usual - the Indians on the list have more solid facts than the pakis.

However, a few corrections:

DM - there maybe dozens of `gotras` in any jaati - sometimes these gotras also
overlap.
Gotras are similiar to the `totem` representation of ancient peoples.

It so happens that India happens to have very very ancient traditions living
alongside and evolving for thousands of years. Unfortunately, it has so happened
that ``western sociology`` theories have infected some of the elites and have tried
to compartmentalize Indian society and these people have tied themselves up in
knots.

The worst of the ``western sociological theories`` imposed on free-India was in the
60`s and 70`s - and we saw the corresponding institutional and political results of
such impositions in the 80`s and 90`s.

Luckily there is an ever-strengthening local indic scholarship which is more India
friendly these days.
Hopefully the worst days are behind us - in the next few years, scholarship on
the jaati system in India should be able to throw off the western theories and present
a truer representation of local ideas.

rahulmal#114:

I have read parts of Romila Thapar. Actually, I was more impressed with her brother, Romesh Thapar, a one-time Indira advisor, Fellow-traveller, an artist (acted in Householder)but above all, a true believer in free debate. The Seminar Magazine he started [http://www.india-seminar.com/] is the best source of information on all sides of the debate on any issue.

Here is an example of my own experience of caste in a large village near Rani Khet. When I went there as a research student, everyone would ask what my caste was. From my name they thought that I was a brahmin; when I denied that, they insisted to know more. And when my caste did not fit into their caste system, they decided that I was a ``Thakur``. From then on, I was ``Thakur Saab`` whether I liked it or not.

dionysus:
BTW I have no problem in calling me pro-hindu or pro-India, which I am. But I am also pro-canada, pro-panjab and pro-sikh and anti-anti-Pakistan.

Chaudhury Dionysus (hope u don`t mind the title after your spirited defence of Jats),

Please check out Ancient India by Romila Thapar. Two reasons why I recommend the book:

1) I`ve read the book. It is a good read even if you are not a History buff.
2) Thapar is considered a vamp by Sangh parivar and she is as anti-Hindu as it gets :-) This will satisfy some of your own stringent criteria which tend to label anything remotely against your preconceived notions as pro-Hindu, pro-India `spin`.

There is another one by a foreign author which is a good read just for the sake of prose, I`ll post the name tomorrow.

DMji,

If you`ve not read Thapar, you also try it.

DrLokraj & Greek philosopher,

Could you please share the pearls of wisdom and jokes with other people on this board who are not too well-versed in Punjabi :-)

This discussion was really good, I learnt a lot of new things. In the style of McDonald`s ad, `I`m loving it`. If only Amit, Nazar Saab and SameerJB (who has gone incommunicado) could join in, it would be a riot...

dionysus#112:

``Caste heirarchy in nonBrahmincal Punjab was never rigid but that isn`t the case in Hindustan. As usual of course you are putting your pro-India pro-Hindu spin on things. Are you really an atheist? You seem a bit confused to me.``

LOL. No, I am fascinated by sociology and social anthrapology, including castes. I do not believe in caste system and consider it the greatest weakness of the Indian society in general and Hindus in particular.

My statement regarding non-rigidity of caste was not based on Panjab which, as you correctly pointed out, did not have a brahminical supremacy. It was actually based on studies by eminent sociologists, including the best known Indian Sociologist, M.N. Srinivas who did his studies in South India. I did my own modest study of inter-caste relations in the Almora District of U.P (now Uttranchal).

BTW you should google around and learn some more about gotra. In Pakistan, it seems, gotra is considered synonymous with caste, which it isn`t. There are only eight gotras in the Hindu system.

dost-mittar ``Rajput names Parihar, Bhatti and Sial.``

I didn`t mention Sials. Sials in West Punjab are Jatts (Heer in the Heer Ranjha story was Sial). The Sials who are Khatris are a different people altogether. It`s just the case of different clans having the same or similar sounding names by conicdnce like Kakkar Pathans and Khatris or indeed Punjabi Jatt and Hindustani Jaat.


``There do not seem to be many Khatris in Pakistan and they seem to be looked down upon whereas in India Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour.``

Khatris are opening up now. For a long time they were buried under the ``Sheikh`` category. But now they are starting to use and display their gotras on their houses. I have two Kapoors, an Uppal and a Sethi in my own mohalla. One of them I know personally and he is VERY proud of Khatri suceess in India.

``ndia Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour``

That`s not my experience with the Sikhs, at least. Maybe outside of East Punjab it is a badge of honour.

``Caste hierarchy among the Hindus was never as rigid as it was made out to be.``

Caste heirarchy in nonBrahmincal Punjab was never rigid but that isn`t the case in Hindustan. As usual of course you are putting your pro-India pro-Hindu spin on things. Are you really an atheist? You seem a bit confused to me.

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dionysus:

Caste configurations are not as clear-cut as many people make them out to be. In Pakistan, you have given the example of Rajput names Parihar, Bhatti and Sial. On this side of the border, none of them is a rajput - Parihar and Bhatti are, I believe, Jutt names while Sials are Khatris. There do not seem to be many Khatris in Pakistan and they seem to be looked down upon whereas in India Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour.

And while the Moochh-MarorH Rajputs in Pakistan and Indian states of Rajasthan are upper castes, in the neighbouring Gujarat, they are classified as backward castes.

Caste hierarchy among the Hindus was never as rigid as it was made out to be. Over time, some castes seem to have been able to improve their status in hierarchy by improving their economic status while others got downgraded as misfortunes befell them.

lokraj ``Guru Gobind Singh converted the downtrodden into martial Khalsa(not to be equated with Jutts)``

More nonsense. One of the men Guru Gobind Singh made an extra effort to recruit as a follower and then boasted about it to Aurangzeb when he suceeded (partially), was Chaudhry Kapura, a Barar Jatt of Malwa. Chaudhry Kapura had a sizable private army, controlled several forts and was a local ruler a over a large part of Malwa. Hardly `downtrodden`.


You guys have gotta find some other way of dealing with your inferiority complexes.

#107 lokraj ``look into this.
``I dont know when were the jats known as a martial community.If killing a brother or father for a piece of land and ``dakk kay daru pee kay bakkray bulaonay`` and taking pride in declaring themselves as-``putt sardaraaN day,khaan bakkray tay peen sharabaN`` is being martial then yes they are definitely martial.``

One of your friends, Amit I think, was singing the praises of the mighty and fercocious Kharral Rajputs a few weeks ago on this front page. Kharrals are in actual fact Jatts. Ask him what makes Jatts a marital race.

``Majority of sikh jarnails including Ranjit Singh were non-jutts.``

What rubbish. Ranjeet Singh was a Sandhu Jatt from Sukerchak in Gujranwala and with roots going back to Pindi Bhattian. 9 or 10 of the 12 Sikh Misals were ruled by Jatts. Rajneet Singh had a galaxy of Jatt generals including Fateh Khan Tiwana the grandfather of future Punjab PM Malik Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana.


Hello Humsab ji, how are you? Long time no see.

``The history of this whole Indus area is fascinating. I am still trying to figure out why it was always defeated in battle, over 2500 years, by individuals, as far of as Greece and Bihar and Central Asia. When, it is considered to be producing the, ``martial`` races.........Something doesn`t add up..... ``

Romair,your question is very intriguing indeed.I am sure some historians must have tried to look into this.
I dont know when were the jats known as a martial community.If killing a brother or father for a piece of land and ``dakk kay daru pee kay bakkray bulaonay`` and taking pride in declaring themselves as-``putt sardaraaN day,khaan bakkray tay peen sharabaN`` is being martial then yes they are definitely martial.

It depends upon effective leadership..look at china...once known as a country of lazy,opium smoking population got converted into a martial nation under the able leadership and the socio-political structure.

Guru Gobind Singh converted the downtrodden into martial Khalsa(not to be equated with Jutts)
Majority of sikh jarnails including Ranjit Singh were non-jutts.

Everyone who reads and Dio ji

Punjabi jatts are not a special tribe. They come from same genetic pool. Here, Kaurasach ji and Lokraj ji`s statements are correct.
It seems Pakisan is developing another theory of orogin of Punabi jatts and expecting that repeating the same for a few years will make it an absolute truth.
Actually, most of Jatt surnames have origin in Rajasthan and Haryana. Since they were into farming, their movement over centuries went on wherever they found water and fertile land.

Regards

Re: # 103

also,his name was actually Hanu Singh Maan and like Gurdas Maan and Babbu Maan,he stopped writing Singh with his name to appear modern and have a wider market.

It is only myth that Amritdharis dont drink.Only Naamdharis are strict about the maryada,for all others it is a matter of convenience.I have some amritdhari relatives who drink and also eat meat.

hindvi

You are minimizing the role of violence and coercion as much as Indians misunderstand the role and motives of sufis. Both, Islamic political, social, and military coercion and sufi deceipt, worked in tandem against Hinduism. In essence, it was a determined carrot and dagger assault on Indian culture.

Re: # 96
Dear Lokraj ji

There is no difference between Punjabi/Haryanvi/Rajasthani/Up jats/jutts/jatts. They all belong to Hanuman`s biradri. Somebody stole some body else`s wife but Hanuman burns his back side.

There is an ardaas for the non amrit-dhari jaats/jutts/jats etc.

Jinna singa singniya ne sharaban peetiyan
Naaliyan vich tuthe, kuttay kutiyan kolon muhn chattay
Unha shahidan da dhyaan dhar ke bolo
Jo bole so nihal
Sat sri Akal
Jinay jhalle, babay de palle

dionysius (what i write below is true of India because I am familiar with its history, about conversions in Pakistan and Punjab you could enlighten me)

there are two reasons why most hindus and sikhs wont agree with you. Firstly most of them, including those who think they are well informed (as you can see on this web site), believe that most muslims in India and elsewhere were converted by force.

This falacy is deep rooted, and they dismiss any evidence or logic presented otherwise. They wont take into account the fact that most muslims were converted by sufis and dervishes. Nizammudin himself is said to have converted over a lakh at his hands, Chisti several lakhs, in between there were thousands of sufis and followers who spread from the frontier, acroos the Sindh- Punjab plains to the gangetic plains and onwards to Bengal and the deccan hence you find thousands of dargahs dotting the subcontinental landscape from Madurai to Swat. Also because hinduism wasnt monolithic intially many of the converted used to worship the pir, and through him Allah. depending upon the pir or the silsila he followed he would convert the follower or not and later on the mullahs/muslim reformists would do try to remove what they considered undesirable practices.

Muslim rulers with the exception of Aurangzeb and a couple others werent really interested in conversions at all, partly this was due to political considerations (because muslims, especially lodhis, Mughals etc had aquired large number of hindu allies and the post aurangzeb mughals were anyway weak) .

but the other significant reason was that muslim kings preferred this arrangement because hindu masses considered the ruler to be a divine manifestation, Some like Akbar used to grant a ritual ``Darshan`` even today if you go to Agra fort the tour guide wil take you to the balcony over looking the Yamuna where Akbar would come in the mornings.

this is not to say that some upper caste hindus did not convert in order to get court priviliges but to cliam that most muslims were converted by force in what constitutes India and Bangladesh today is a fantasy, even on the frontier can any one imagine the Pathans being converted by Force to anything?

Maybe you could add something about conversions in the Pakistani Punjab.

Anil #99: ``I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans``

The, ``martial`` races/communities of Sub-Continent have some that come from India and some that come from Pakistan. I can give you some info about the ones that come from Pakistan.

People think that all of Punjab is in the Pakistan Army. This is actually not true. The whole enlisted base of the Pakistan Army nearly all comes from five districts: Jehlum, Pindi, Chakwal, Kohat, and Mardan. The first three are on the North-West end of Punjab. And the later two are adjacent to them on the SouthEast end of NWFP.

It would be difficult to find any area in the world that produces more soldiers. Literally every family there is in the military. The Punjab districts fall under the Potohar part of Punjab, assuming one divides Pakistan`s Punjab into Potohar, Punjab and Saraiki areas. The other two areas of Punjab don`t send too many people into the Army. Same for NWFP, outside of the two districts, mentioned above.

I am not sure what the reasons behind being martial happen to be. One could guess physical size. But the two best fighters in the world happen to be Gurkhas and the Vietnamese. Both of whom are not physically large. My guess is lack of resources. Potohar in Punjab has nothing. No industry, no minerals and most of all no agricultural. Either you join the military or you go abroad. I have some association with that area, and have ended up doing both.......

However, things are the officer level are different. Most of the officers of the Army come from this same area. However, most of the ones in Air Force are Pathans (at least the pilots). While there is a huge number of Muhajirs from Karachi in the Navy. Interestingly, at the officer level, the most successful group in the miltiary, ethnically, is Muhajirs. Musharraf being one example. Karachi has produced the most Chiefs of Staff and gets a majority of the military budget. Punjabis (and too a lesser extent, Pathans) end up being the cannon fodder.......

The history of this whole Indus area is fascinating. I am still trying to figure out why it was always defeated in battle, over 2500 years, by individuals, as far of as Greece and Bihar and Central Asia. When, it is considered to be producing the, ``martial`` races.........Something doesn`t add up.....

Punjabis have been killed, left and right, and have rarely ever ruled anything, other than in the time of Ranjit Singh. Now they are ruling Pakistan, but are still cannon fodder, when it comes to wars.............

Dost-Mitter / Kaurasach / Dynosys:

This board is coming to an end. I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans (I have even met some hindu khatris from frontier who claim to be Pathans) of South Asia. Anyone of you should write about them. How they span across religions, regions. How they created power base, and were used. I would love to read more.

Anil Kapuria

Dost-Mitter / Kaurasach / Dynosys:

This board is coming to an end. I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans (I have even met some hindu khatris from frontier who claim to be Pathans) of South Asia. Anyone of you should write about them. How they span across religions, regions. How they created power base, and were used. I would love to read more.

Anil Kapuria

#96 lokraj ``The difference between Punjabi jutts and Haryanvi/Up jaats is because of Sikhism which separated itself from Hindus at many levels including a separate political entity. ``

Bullshit. Try persuading the Jaats and www.jatland.com that they have anything to do with us. They won`t even let Muslim and Sikh Jatts post there because ``we don`t want to hear your stupid assee thusee language`` and `` you are not the same people as us``.

All Jatt haters try to link Jatts to Jaats ONLY to make Jatts look bad. No other reason. Neither we nor they recognize each other as belonging to one community. Sikh and Muslim Jatts hated each other with a passion for a long time after 1947 but even then they never denied their common roots.

``, the language you use even for discussing a seriuos matter like this proves that both of you are jutts.``

What are you a Khatri with a chip on his shoulder?


Kaurasach ``..he is a jutt who descended from Arab `braather`. yeah.... go figure! ``

Who said that, moron? Not me.

((.....The difference between Punjabi jutts and Haryanvi/Up jaats is because of Sikhism which separated itself from Hindus at many levels including a separate political entity.
........))

he won`t believe you.....he is a jutt who descended from Arab `braather`. yeah.... go figure!


I am not a jutt......it is ridiculous to distinguish in Punjab or to draw lines as such. I`ve seen jutts (or another upper `class`) people who look like `chooras` and vice versa.

The reason Haryanvi Jats and UP jats have preserved their distinct features is that they have not intermarried. In Punjab, before the present day politics, there was a lot of inter marriage, and invaders also left their traits in the gene pool.

dionysus and kaura, the language you use even for discussing a seriuos matter like this proves that both of you are jutts.AweiN sing na fasayi jao.
The difference between Punjabi jutts and Haryanvi/Up jaats is because of Sikhism which separated itself from Hindus at many levels including a separate political entity.
You can see a continuum in the lingo as you move from Gurdas Pur towards Mahender Garh.The language spoken in the lower malwa is more closer to Haryanvi rather than Punjabi of Doaba or Maajha.
Not till long ago,many jutts of Punjab were wershippping thre same deities as Hindus.Still you will find many jutt devoties in Kali temple of Patiala,Vaishno Devi,Naina Devi and other devis and many jutts were organizing jagratas and ``tolis``to worship Gugga.
Differences have become sharp only since few decades and that is purely political.

#85 Kaura ``IF Punjabi jatts were such heroes, why did they become sulas? (pls don`t tell me Islam is appealing). ``

What a dumb phuddee dha you are! Your Mughal and Afghan chachay, you know the ones who ruled the subcontinent for 800 years also became sullay under the Arabs. What does that prove?


``Who told you that Punabi Rajpoots are ``99%`` muslim? - another ex- of exaggeration and phukrapanti? ``

All the majoir and minor Punjabi Rajput clans are Muslims by a very large majority, you dumb fcuk. Janjuas and Minhas of Potohar. Lalika and Joya of the trans sutlej region, Bhattis, Parihars of central Punjab, the Manj of Malwa, the Warrian of jullandar - the whole freaken lot of them. You don`t know a lot about Punjabi do you?

Kaurasach

Here is what you yourself wrote in the Amrita Pritam article ``Millions of Jats, Rajputs, Brahmins were converted by force. They didn`t have any reason to convert since they ruled the roost unlike Dalits.``

Ruled the roost. Exactly my point.