Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

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on ramgarhia`s and ahluwalias

[quote]You`ve told this about...ummm....a million times now. Do you have some kind of inferiority complex to Jatts or something? You`re not somekind of Tarkhan or a Kalal low-caste riff-raff with serious self-esteem issues are you? j/k [/quote]

Are YOU some kind of retard who thinks Tarkhans and Kalal`s are lower?

Do you think the Jats who followed Jassa Singh Ramgarhia (a Tarkhan) were low to, ot the one`s that followed Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, were low.

Idiots like you bring shame to the Jat biradri. Kaursach is right, that Jats were considered Sudra`s under the caste system.

Our boasts are idle and full of ho air. You would know that if you knew how many of our brothers are commiting suicide in Punjab.

[quote]
If Sikhism elevated the status of Jatts from where and how did Chaudhry Anwar Ghumman, Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nawab Amanullah Khan Sial, Chaudhry Hammad Nasir Chattha and MANY other Jatt Sardars in West Punjab get their 10s of thousands of acres? Was it a gift from the Khalsa. I doubt it somehow. [/quote]

These Jatts became Musaman`s to grab land. Prior to that they had nothing. they were Nung`s.

[quote]You`ve told this about...ummm....a million times now. Do you have some kind of inferiority complex to Jatts or something? You`re not somekind of Tarkhan or a Kalal low-caste riff-raff with serious self-esteem issues are you? j/k [/quote]

Are YOU some kind of retard who thinks Tarkhans and Kalal`s are lower?

Do you think the Jats who followed Jassa Singh Ramgarhia (a Tarkhan) were low to, ot the one`s that followed Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, were low.

Idiots like you bring shame to the Jat biradri. Kaursach is right, that Jats were considered Sudra`s under the caste system.

Our boasts are idle and full of ho air. You would know that if you knew how many of our brothers are commiting suicide in Punjab.

[quote]
If Sikhism elevated the status of Jatts from where and how did Chaudhry Anwar Ghumman, Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nawab Amanullah Khan Sial, Chaudhry Hammad Nasir Chattha and MANY other Jatt Sardars in West Punjab get their 10s of thousands of acres? Was it a gift from the Khalsa. I doubt it somehow. [/quote]

These Jatts became Musaman`s to grab land. Prior to that they had nothing. they were Nung`s.

Simple facts to consider.

1. Before 1550s there was no language called ``Hindustan``, ``Hindi`` or ``Urdu``., but
Sanskrit, Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Tamil, Telugu, Oriya, Manipuri existed.

2. Akbar created Urdu for army after 1550s for communication purposes.
Then in 1870s Hindi was created which basically was spoken language
of cities in the belt from Delhi to Allahabad (in country side people
spoke Braj Bhasha and other dialects) written in Sanskrit script. Same
language was also written in Persian/Arabic script. was majority of
people (including writes as Munshi Prem Chand) used Persian/Arabic script
for their hindustani writings.

3. Early 1910s., Devnagari script was actively taught in some schools in North
India., and by 1947 it 100% replaced Urdu/Arabic script.

Urdu and Hindi are nothing but political manifestations of their respective periods
at the expense of the local languages.

Original Braj Bhasha, Sanskrit, bundeli,awadhi, dhanwar, chhatisgarhi, sansi,kabutri,
bareli, Marwari, kannauji, Maithali, Rohtaki, Pahari, malvi, etc languages were/are
constantly being eradicated to asssimiliate them into Delhi/Lucknow/Aligarh
language called Hindustani (which is still the language of the ruling feudal of
India and Pakistan).

#161

Jang, I`m going to have to disagree with you. Japan has not abandoned its caste system, it`s only been modified. Military and politics is still dominated by the descendants of the samurai. The main difference is that the economy is driven by the descendents of the merchant class, who were reviled for being leeches during the Shogunate, but now are rolling in money. The outcastes, notably the eta and the burukumin, are still heavily discriminated against and can`t find work, housing, or an education. The Japanese also discriminate heavily against the indigineous Ainu population.

#161

Jang, I`m going to have to disagree with you. Japan has not abandoned its caste system, it`s only been modified. Military and politics is still dominated by the descendants of the samurai. The main difference is that the economy is driven by the descendents of the merchant class, who were reviled for being leeches during the Shogunate, but now are rolling in money. The outcastes, notably the eta and the burukumin, are still heavily discriminated against and can`t find work, housing, or an education. The Japanese also discriminate heavily against the indigineous Ainu population.

Hi dionysus and others,

These discussions on Jatts and other martial ethnic groups is awsome, I suggest anyone interested in this type of history should join a non-relegious, secular and an all around view point on Jatts, sites ran by Hindu Jatts are blatantly biased and not welcoming, I suggest you join www.Jattworld.com for an easy to follow and discuss forum.

Hope to see you all there!

regards,

Dionysus,

You owe Chowkies an article on Punjab - its people, culture and History.

HP,

I`ve no idea how a silly article on Bollywood turned into a meaty discussion on History, not that I mind it :-) Count me in on the Kapurthala theory. Sindh History would be cool.

Dionysus #154: ``In fact Punjab was the heart of their empire. They never ruled Kashmir proper so far as a I know. They ruled up to the Pir Panjal mountains and the sub Pir Panja area, though made a part of modern Jammu and Kashmir by the British, is in fact historicaly a part of the greater Punjab. Chowk`s own Romair comes from this region, I believe.``

Very impressive analysis. This seems to fit in with where most of my family comes from. It is basically all Punjabi, in terms of language etc. I had never been able to find out the historical facts of why it was so Punjabi, yet not really from Punjab, geographically........

You are a virtual encyclopedia on the history of Punjab. Where and how have you acculmulated all this knowledge? And would be quite interested on any more info you have on current Punjab and its extensions into Kashmir. Much of Pakistan`s Kashmir is actually more Punjabi than the Sariaki parts of Punjab, itself; whose center Multan was, actually historically, a center of Sind and not of Punjab...........

I am trying to find some information on Porus and Alexander. Apparently, some new info has appeared indicating he did not defeat Porus. And may have actually been defeated or avoided the fight. Some trascripts from some soldiers. And the fact that, legend has it he gave the land back to Porus, after defeating him, since he was so impressed with Porus` replies. This would go against Alexander`s nature. He would have conquered the place and there should be some Greek blood in the present inhabitants of that area, much like there is in the individuals in the Northern terroritories of Pakistan. Don`t know. Do you have any info............

Thanks Rahulmal for an excellent write up and the ensuing discussion. I have learned new things about the Punjab, Punjabis and relations between the people in that area. Before reading this article, my knowledge about the cultural diversity in Punjab was limited. I always thought the Kapoors are Kapoors because they are/were from Kapurthala!

People were talking about Jats here, In the Lower Sindh, we do have people that go by “Jut”. Mostly farmers now, but they did take part in some wars between the Brits, Sindhi and Moghals at different times of the history.

I hope someday I am able to put together something about Sindh’s history for chowk readers.

Thanks.

162,

that is why I said ``EXCEPT``.

BTW, I do not recognize those borders - that were drawn on political perversity and prejudices. I was talking about united Pb. Even if they are part of Haryana, they can still be part of a region.

Was caught up with things so this reaction is kinda late and might be a digression from the current discussion (which I haven`t had a chance to read)...but just felt like clarifying and reacting to certain things...you might have to refer back to your posts. thanks.

#77 Humsab,
When I meant it was an oxymoron, I meant it visually as in the picture it created in my mind, and not linguistially. You ask why is it okay to have public religious identity but wrong to have ethnic racial identity.That`s a very important question you raise and I would say that ethnic racial identity in the Indian context took a very ugly turn in the form of the divisiveness and rigidity of the caste system. To overcome this, a complete rejection of caste was advocated by many including the Sikh Gurus. Sikh men are consequently supposed to write Singh as their last name and women Kaur. Many have said that the `uniformity` thus created is very boring, uninteresting, so on and so forth. However, when asserting your ethnic racial identity began to come at the cost of depraving another or asserting your superiority over another, it was understanable in my opinion to give a call to do away with it completely. Of course I understand that in reality it is otherwise and that the makers of the movie had no intention of hurting anyone`s sentiments. Nevertheless, I would`ve found it acceptable and understandable if religious bodies (which do deal with ideal situations because they follow religion which is itself arguably idealistic at some level), would`ve given a simple, non-iflammatory press statement and/or conveyed to the producers their viewpoint. Nothing more. I`m not advocating violent protests of the movie or a ban for that matter. If people have an issue with the movie, they can, and have a right, to express their opinion in a democratic matter. Nothing wrong with that.

When you say, ``All of us should simply think about good old days when we could laugh at ourselves and also others without bothering too much about their senstivities and everyone was expected to take humour in the right spirit``, I understand your sentiments behind this, but I feel that this can take a dangerous turn as anything could be passed off as humour at the expense of hurting others.

#76 Rahulmal,
I`m anything but well versed with the tenets of Sikhi! I do acknowledge that as far as caste in Sikhism is concerned, ground realities are different. However, don`t you think that a religious body should uphold the principles that a religion stands for irrespective of what the ground realities are? Female feoticide in India is the highest in Punjab, so should one just accept it as ground reality and move on? Some people think it to be more `practical` to abort the female feotus and apparently there is a `high demand` for this in Punjab. Demands of practicality, among other things, supposedly dictate such decisions too; so should it be left at that or should society including religious bodies evoking ``ersatz concepts like `pillars of religion` `` do something about it?

#123 Parthaab,
I`m surprised that no one took notice of your post or reacted to it. Not all religious fundamentalism has its roots in teaching false propaganda to children. Definitely some of it does, but not all. Adults might be as impressionable as children at times and fundamentalism might also be a reaction to something rather than the result of being taught at a `biased` institution. You say that governments should ban all religious teachings in schools. Religion in its essence was never meant to `corrupt` anyone and I don`t see how banning religious teachings in schools will help curb fundamentalism because children can be brainwashed even at home.

`` ...christianity, which encourages churches to build schools to corrupt young mind ( of non christians as well )...`` Parthaab, it is a fact though that they have brought literacy, regardless of the biases along with it, to even remote areas. Would you rather that people remain illiterate? In the towns and cities you do have a choice to go to other schools don`t you?

Banning religion or religious teachings is not a panacea to the world`s ills. People should have the freedom to practice any religion, or not to, if they so choose. If I feel like wearing a turban, veil or cross, I should be able to. There is nothing wrong with religious `symbols` or paraphernalia as long as they are not mandatory or forced on anyone. People wouldn`t stop killing each other if they were barred from wearing religious symbols at schools. The hold of fundamentalist idealogy is in my opinion probably much deeper than that.

``Lets teach children the truth, and start by banning teaching non truths.`` What is the truth (if there is any)?

#142 urstruly, why dont you go watch newsreels circa 1972? those filmed in a pretty race-course?

Regarding Caste: One nation which has successfully transcended caste is the mighty Nippon. This nation had a very long history of a rigid caste system as a backbone of their society, a divine emperor, samurais, peasants, okinawans and untouchables. One bomb, and they seem to have miraculously lost their caste baggage.

Rahulmal,

Malwa is the region between the river Ghaggar and Sutlej (EXCEPT the easternmost part ie Chandigarh, Paonta, Ambala, Yamunanagar, etc.)

There is a difference between the KHALSA`s fight against invaders and Jaipal`s, Porus etc. KHALSA was the only force that defeated the invaders (except British of course). ALL others lost. Porus lost, Anang Jaipal lost, virks, kharals, - all lost.

KHALSA was the ONLY force that turned the tide from Khyber.

Do not base or develop your views solely on a few sites. Read as much as possible and then draw conclusions.

Re: # 160
kaura ji,
Chandigarh is Union Territory,though capital of Punjab
Paonta sahib is in Sirmaur district of Himachal Pradesh
Ambala and Yamuna Nagar are districts of Haryana

The Ropar district and parts of Patiala district are called ``puaadh``,though broadly it is counted in Malwa

rahulmal
#152

One of the striking thing about many educated pakistanis is how much they use racist expressions of this type. Another amazing thing is the use of terms like ``chamar``, ``choora`` etc. as derogatory terms of abuse. Here is another gem from a letter to a pakistani newspaper:

``He has a Hindu’s mind, shrewd and sharp.``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_3-6-2005_pg3_6

The equivalent statement in India would be considered an example of ``hindu fascism`` and would never be accepted by educated people. Definitely deserves comment as you have done...