Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

Even the British practised caste in India. I was reading the history of India`s first bank started by the British 200 years ago. They charged an interest of 15% from brahmins and 60% from the lowest caste; in other words those who were least afford to pay were asked to pay the most.

Kaure,

Thanks for the Sikh History site!

Except for Purus (or Porus) taking on the mighty Alexander, I can`t think of any instance where Pbis fought against external aggressions...if someone knows please share...

#145 by dost-mittar

Congrets!

Finally you found some support for caste system from the civilized world. But what you quoted is still practiced in the US. Bad credit = high interest rate. So it is business… But you guys have to find some justification…

Re: # 145
not only this,shudras could not buy land in their own name-they could do that on power of attorney.Registration was not in their name.

Ref dost-mittar #145

[Even the British practised caste in India. I was reading the history of India`s first bank started by the British 200 years ago. They charged an interest of 15% from brahmins and 60% from the lowest caste; in other words those who were least afford to pay were asked to pay the most.]

Why do you ascribe the interest rate differential to caste? Interest rates are based on perceived risk.... risk that the loan may be defaulted on.

Don`t US banks refuse to underwrite mortgages in poor (meaning, black) neighborhoods in a practice called redlining?

Re: # 146
Rahul,I dont know about the remote past,but in 18th century,befor Ranjit Singh came on the scene,Jassa Singh Ahluwalia did this and also the other misals.

Following description is from sikh history and reveals some disturbing facts about some rulers of that time which gives an idea why the invaders were successful.

When Ahmad Shah Abdali was engaged in his campaign against the Marathas at Panipat in 1761, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia plundered Sirhind and Dialpur, seized some places in Ferozepur district and took under his possession Jagraon and Kot Isa Khan on the other bank of Sutlej. He captured Hoshiarpur and Naraingurh in Ambala and levied tribute from the chief of Kapurthala. He then marched towards Jhang. Sial chief offered stout resistance. When Ahmad Shah left in Feb. 1761, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia again attacked Sirhind and extended his territory as far as Tarn Taran. He crossed Bias and capture Sultanpur. In 1762, Ahmad Shah again appeared and a fierce battle took place. It is called Ghalughara, a great holocaust. Jassa singh fled to Kangra hills after Sikh forces were totally routed. After the departure of Ahmad Shah Abdali, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia attacked Sirhind, it was razed to ground and the afghan Governor Zen Khan was killed. This was a great victory to Sikhs who were rulers of all the area around the Sirhind. Jassa Singh hastily paid visit to Hari Mandir at Amritsar, and he made amends and restored it to original shape as it was defiled by Ahmad Shah by slaughtering cows in its precincts.

Ahmad Shah died in June 1773. After his death power of Afghans declined in Punjab. Taimur Shah ascended the throne at Kabul. By then misals, had established themselves in Punjab. They had under their control the area as far as Saharnpur in east, Attock in west, Kangra Jammu in north and Multan in south. Efforts were made by Afghan rulers to dislodge Sikhs from their citadels. Taimur Shah attacked Multan and defeated the Bhangis. The Bhangi sardars, Lehna Singh, and Sobha singh were driven out of Lahore in 1767 by the Abdali but soon reoccupied it. They remained in power in Lahore till 1793-the year when Shah Zaman succeeded to the throne of Kabul.

Another menace to Sikhs was the Pathan ruler of Kasur who was loyal to Kabul. During the Abdali attacks, he took side with him and plundered the Sikh territory. Now again assistance was promised to Shah by Kasur ruler, Nizam-Ud-Din-Khan.

The first attempt by Shah Zaman was made in 1793. He came upto Hassan Abdal from where he sent an army of 7000 strong cavalry under Ahmad Shahnachi but the Sikhs totally routed them. It was a great setback to Shah Zaman but again in 1795 he reorganized forces and attacked Hassan Abdal, snatched Rohtas from Sukerchikias, whom leader was Ranjit Singh. who suffered at Shah Zaman` hands but did not lose courage. However, shah had to be back in Kabul as an invasion was apprehended on his own country from the west. After he went back, Ranjit dislodged the Afghans from Rohtas.

Shah Zaman could not sit idle. In 1796 he moved, crossed Indus for the third time and dreamt of capturing Delhi. His ambition knew no bounds. By now he had collected 3000 strong afghan army. He was confident a large number of Indians will join with him. Nawab of Kasur had already assured him help. Sahib Singh of Patiala betrayed his countrymen and declared his intentions of helping Shah Zaman. He had family traditions of loyalty to all the invaders who attacked India. Shah Zaman was also assured help by the Rohillas, Wazir of Oudh, and Tipu Sultan of Mysore. Shah was bent upon to finish the infidels. The news of Shah Zaman invasion spread like wild fire. Chicken hearted people started fleeing to hills for safety. Heads of Misals, though bound to give protection to the people as they were collecting Rakhi tax from them were the first to leave the people in lurch. In Dec. Shah occupied territory upto Jhelum. When he reached Gujarat Sahib singh bhangi panicked and left the place. He could not offer any resistance.

Next was the territory of Ranjit singh. He was alert and raised an army of 5000 horsemen. But they were inadequately armed with only spears and muskets. The afghans were equipped with heavy artillery. Ranjit singh thought of a stiff united fight against the invaders. He came to Amritsar. A congregation of Sarbat Khalasa was called and many Sikh sardars answered the call. An almost unanimous opinion prevailed that Shah zaman`s army should be allowed to enter the Punjab, and they all should retire to hills.

However, Sada Kaur thought otherwise and exhorted the Sikhs to fight to the last. She persuaded Ranjit singh to be bold enough to face the Afghan army and offer stiff resistance. Forces were reorganized under the command of Ranjit singh and they marched towards Lahore. They were able to gave Afghans a crushing defeat in several villages and ultimately surrounded the city of Lahore. Sorties were made in night in which they would kill a few Afghan soldiers and then leave the city in the thick of darkness. Following this tactic they were able to dislodge Afghans at several places.

In 1797, Shah Zaman, suddenly left for Afghanistan as his brother Mahmud had revolted. Shahanchi khan with considerable force was left at Lahore. The Sikhs however followed Shah upto Jhelum and snatched many goods from him. The Sikhs returned and in the way were attacked by the army of Shahnachi khan near Ram Nagar. The Sikhs routed his army. It was the first major achievement of Ranjit Singh. He became the hero of the land of Five Rivers and his reputation spread far and wide.

Again in 1798 Shah Zaman attacked Punjab to avenge his defeat in 1797, people took refuge in hills. Sarbat Khalsa was again called and Sada Kaur again persuaded Sikhs to fight till the last man. This time even Muslims were not spared by Shah Zaman forces and he won Gujarat very easily. Sada Kaur aroused the sense of Sikhs of national honor and if they had left Amritsar then she will command the forces against Afghans. She said an Afghani soldier was no match to a Sikh soldier . They would be give befitting reply and by the grace of Sat Guru they would be successful.

The Afghans had plundered the towns and villages as they had vowed and declared openly that they would exterminate the Sikhs; but in the process the Muslims suffered most as Hindus and Sikhs had already left for the hills. The Muslims thought that they would not be touched but their hopes were belied and their provisions were forcible taken away by the Afghans.

Shah Zaman sought help of raja Sansar Chand of Kangra, that he will not gave any food or shelter to Sikhs. He agreed. Shah Zaman attacked Lahore and Sikhs were surrounded from all sides, they had to fight a grim battle. The Afghans occupied Lahore on Nov. 1798, and planned to attack Amritsar. Ranjit Singh collected his Men and faced forces about 8 Km from Amritsar. It was a well-matched encounter which forced Afghans at last to retire. They were humiliated and fled towards Lahore. Ranjit Singh pursued them and surrounded Lahore. Afghan supply lines were cut. Crops were burnt and other provisions plundered so that they did not fall into Afghan`s hands. The Afghans never expected such a humiliating defeat at the hands of Sikhs. Nizam-ud.din of Kasur attacked Sikhs near Shahdara on the banks of Ravi, but his forces were no match to Sikhs. Here too, Muslims suffered the most. The retreating Afghans and Nizam-ud-din forces plundered the town which antagonized the local people.

The Afghans struggled hard to dislodge Sikhs but in vain. Sikh cordon was so strong that they made impossible for the Afghans to break it and proceed towards Delhi. Ranjit singh became terror to them.

Dr Saab,

Is Malwa some area in Punjab? I saw that Kaura and Doinysus have mentioned it in their posts. I was only aware of Malwa plateau which is in M.P.

I agree Pbis became a force to reckon with only after Khalsa. If one excludes the last Guru, then the first great general was Banda. He was a brave Rajput who had taken to asceticism. Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage and ordered slaughter of buffaloes. This enraged the Rajput who lashed out at Guru for desecrating his sacred sanctuary. Guru told him, ``You are fretting over the killing of buffaloes in your courtyard, while people are being slaughtered like cattle in your entire country. Realizing his mistake, he fell on his knees and joined Khalsa.

Another question: Any idea when did Rajputs start using Singh in their names? Every time I turn the pages of History books, I come across names like PrithviRaj Chahmana, Durgadas Rathod, Rana Pratap Sisodiya etc...this Singh thing looks recent to me. Do you have any idea?

rahulmul ``Except for Purus (or Porus) taking on the mighty Alexander, I can`t think of any instance where Pbis fought against external aggressions.``

``I agree Pbis became a force to reckon with only after Khalsa. ``

LOL! You black Bhayyas are really full of yourself these days, aren`t you? It isn`t surprising I suppose since after 800 years of slavery the British popped out of no where and gifted you a huge empire.


Jaipal of Lahore, his sons Ananadpal and Tirlochanpal and the various Punjabi dynasties that in those days ruled places like the Swat and Peshawar Valleys, led the strongest resitance that the Turko-Afghans EVER faced in 800 years of invading South Asia till days of Ranjeet Singh. They ultimately were defeated but they managed to keep their women out of the Turko -Afghan beds, unlike your Rajasthani `heroes`. So even though he lost in the end I think Punjabis can be very proud of Jaipal.


Later on the Ghakkhars of Pindi, Khattars of Attock, Gondals of Malikwal, Virks, Kharrals and Bhattis of the Sandal and Neeli Baars always led stout restistance against invaders. Ahmed Khan Kharrals is famous for leading resistance to the British after the collapose of the Lahore Durbar. In all these resitances there was never a coordinated effort to fight the invaders across the whole of Punjab, the various Bars and Doabs acted independently and as a consequence were never able to resist the invaders sucessfuly. But I can say with confidence that every invader met resistance till he reach Patiala. After that the `contemptible Hindustanis ` (Sardar Khushwant Singh`s description, not mine) were lining up to serve the invaders.

Dionysus,

I understand your urge to share bits of information, but I fail to understand the fury and froth that accompanies your posts. Calling others `Black Bhaiyas`, distorting nicks `rahulmul` and pumping things like `you are full of it`, is disgraceful. From your posts I can make out a well read man. So, why don`t you just say whatever you want to, without resorting to profanities and name-calling. What say :-)

rahulmal ``Calling others `Black Bhaiyas`, distorting nicks `rahulmul` and pumping things like `you are full of it`, is disgraceful.``

No it`s not. It`s Chowk, and it`s fun. Are you new to this place? BTW rahulmul was a typo and seeing as you seem to have no objections to it I`ll stick to Khushwant Singh`s `contemptible Hindustanis` from now on. :)

Re: # 150
Indian Punjab is divided into 3 parts-

1.Area between Raavi and Beas is called Maajha(Amritsar and Gurdas Pur Districs)

2.Between Beas and Satluj(jalandhar,Kapurthala,hoshiar pur,nawa shehar districts) is called doaba and

3.Rest of Punjab,to north of Satluj is called Maalwa.

I have no idea since when Rajputs started using Singh as suffix,but this has nothing to do with the creation of Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh(on 13 April 1699) after which sikhs started adding Singh to their names.

Re: # 153

Cool :-)

I was more concerned about the real information getting relegated to background, because more effort goes into scoring points over each other. Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well. The NCERT books talk about the fateful battle of Jayapal with Ghazni. He lost. Having been disgraced, he lit his funeral pyre. I`ll check out the libraries and see if I can get more material on them. While Googling, I found that some scholar in Islamabad has done serious work on HinduShahi dynasty. If you have any contacts in that area, could you please check it out...

BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.

Re: # 153

Cool :-)

I was more concerned about the real information getting relegated to background, because more effort goes into scoring points over each other. Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well. The NCERT books talk about the fateful battle of Jayapal with Ghazni. He lost. Having been disgraced, he lit his funeral pyre. I`ll check out the libraries and see if I can get more material on them. While Googling, I found that some scholar in Islamabad has done serious work on HinduShahi dynasty. If you have any contacts in that area, could you please check it out...

BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.

HP#146:

I have a feeling that if I said ``Good Morning!`` to you, you will shout back ``what`s so good about it``. For from supporting, that post is suggesting that the disease was/is so virulent that it infected whoever came near it - buddhists, christians, sikhs, muslims, semites, goras...everyone!

harimour#148:
As far back as I know, banks in India would give loans to individuals only against solid collateral. If you were from a red-lined district the banks would treat you the same whether you are black or white. In the Indian case, the banks chose caste as a criterion and not the person`s assets or collateral.

rahulmal ``Anyways, Wikipedia says too little about HinduShahi dynasty. I couldn`t find any information on the ethnic origin of their rulers, but parts of Punjab were surely under their dominion. But then, their empire extended to present-day Afghanistan and parts of Kashmir as well.``

Oh come one, you are doubting they were Punjabis? I never heard of ANYONE doubting the Punjabi ethnicity of the Hindu Shahis. If you`re gonna claim they came from Bihar or Delhi then I`m going to start laughing.

In fact Punjab was the heart of their empire. They never ruled Kashmir proper so far as a I know. They ruled up to the Pir Panjal mountains and the sub Pir Panja area, though made a part of modern Jammu and Kashmir by the British, is in fact historicaly a part of the greater Punjab. Chowk`s own Romair comes from this region, I believe. Anandpal hid in the thickly forested hills of this region, epecially Poonch, for years and used it to launch attacks agains the Turks. It was never used by any Punjabi resistance again until the rise of the Sikh Misaldars, who regularily fled there.I find this really strange and puzzling as it is perfect country to hide in and launch attacks from, much better than the Punjab plains.

The other areas you allude to, the present day NWFP province of Pakistan and parts of the eastern Afghanistan, including Kabul and the Jalabad valley were inhabited by Punjabis at that time. Pathan migrants only became a majority in this region by the 17th century. There are still pockets of Punjabis speakers in this area. So Jaipal`s empire was Punjabi through and through.


``BTW, Khattars, Gondals etc. you mentioned in your post - is that part of folk lore or some serious work has been done about these people. Frankly speaking, I`ve never heard of these people.``

Practically the whole of North Indian and Pakistani history is from folklore. (It is also a battleground for competing ideologies, countries and castes, but that`s another matter). You think anyone, Indian or Turko-Afghan, had ever heard of Prithvi Raj Chauhan before the British `discovered` him in Rajasthani folk songs?

rahulmal
#152

One of the striking thing about many educated pakistanis is how much they use racist expressions of this type. Another amazing thing is the use of terms like ``chamar``, ``choora`` etc. as derogatory terms of abuse. Here is another gem from a letter to a pakistani newspaper:

``He has a Hindu’s mind, shrewd and sharp.``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_3-6-2005_pg3_6

The equivalent statement in India would be considered an example of ``hindu fascism`` and would never be accepted by educated people. Definitely deserves comment as you have done...