Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

((.....The difference between Punjabi jutts and Haryanvi/Up jaats is because of Sikhism which separated itself from Hindus at many levels including a separate political entity.
........))

he won`t believe you.....he is a jutt who descended from Arab `braather`. yeah.... go figure!


I am not a jutt......it is ridiculous to distinguish in Punjab or to draw lines as such. I`ve seen jutts (or another upper `class`) people who look like `chooras` and vice versa.

The reason Haryanvi Jats and UP jats have preserved their distinct features is that they have not intermarried. In Punjab, before the present day politics, there was a lot of inter marriage, and invaders also left their traits in the gene pool.

#96 lokraj ``The difference between Punjabi jutts and Haryanvi/Up jaats is because of Sikhism which separated itself from Hindus at many levels including a separate political entity. ``

Bullshit. Try persuading the Jaats and www.jatland.com that they have anything to do with us. They won`t even let Muslim and Sikh Jatts post there because ``we don`t want to hear your stupid assee thusee language`` and `` you are not the same people as us``.

All Jatt haters try to link Jatts to Jaats ONLY to make Jatts look bad. No other reason. Neither we nor they recognize each other as belonging to one community. Sikh and Muslim Jatts hated each other with a passion for a long time after 1947 but even then they never denied their common roots.

``, the language you use even for discussing a seriuos matter like this proves that both of you are jutts.``

What are you a Khatri with a chip on his shoulder?


Kaurasach ``..he is a jutt who descended from Arab `braather`. yeah.... go figure! ``

Who said that, moron? Not me.

Dost-Mitter / Kaurasach / Dynosys:

This board is coming to an end. I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans (I have even met some hindu khatris from frontier who claim to be Pathans) of South Asia. Anyone of you should write about them. How they span across religions, regions. How they created power base, and were used. I would love to read more.

Anil Kapuria

Dost-Mitter / Kaurasach / Dynosys:

This board is coming to an end. I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans (I have even met some hindu khatris from frontier who claim to be Pathans) of South Asia. Anyone of you should write about them. How they span across religions, regions. How they created power base, and were used. I would love to read more.

Anil Kapuria

Anil #99: ``I have always been fascinated by the so called ``martial`` communities - Jats, Rajputs, Pathans``

The, ``martial`` races/communities of Sub-Continent have some that come from India and some that come from Pakistan. I can give you some info about the ones that come from Pakistan.

People think that all of Punjab is in the Pakistan Army. This is actually not true. The whole enlisted base of the Pakistan Army nearly all comes from five districts: Jehlum, Pindi, Chakwal, Kohat, and Mardan. The first three are on the North-West end of Punjab. And the later two are adjacent to them on the SouthEast end of NWFP.

It would be difficult to find any area in the world that produces more soldiers. Literally every family there is in the military. The Punjab districts fall under the Potohar part of Punjab, assuming one divides Pakistan`s Punjab into Potohar, Punjab and Saraiki areas. The other two areas of Punjab don`t send too many people into the Army. Same for NWFP, outside of the two districts, mentioned above.

I am not sure what the reasons behind being martial happen to be. One could guess physical size. But the two best fighters in the world happen to be Gurkhas and the Vietnamese. Both of whom are not physically large. My guess is lack of resources. Potohar in Punjab has nothing. No industry, no minerals and most of all no agricultural. Either you join the military or you go abroad. I have some association with that area, and have ended up doing both.......

However, things are the officer level are different. Most of the officers of the Army come from this same area. However, most of the ones in Air Force are Pathans (at least the pilots). While there is a huge number of Muhajirs from Karachi in the Navy. Interestingly, at the officer level, the most successful group in the miltiary, ethnically, is Muhajirs. Musharraf being one example. Karachi has produced the most Chiefs of Staff and gets a majority of the military budget. Punjabis (and too a lesser extent, Pathans) end up being the cannon fodder.......

The history of this whole Indus area is fascinating. I am still trying to figure out why it was always defeated in battle, over 2500 years, by individuals, as far of as Greece and Bihar and Central Asia. When, it is considered to be producing the, ``martial`` races.........Something doesn`t add up.....

Punjabis have been killed, left and right, and have rarely ever ruled anything, other than in the time of Ranjit Singh. Now they are ruling Pakistan, but are still cannon fodder, when it comes to wars.............

dionysius (what i write below is true of India because I am familiar with its history, about conversions in Pakistan and Punjab you could enlighten me)

there are two reasons why most hindus and sikhs wont agree with you. Firstly most of them, including those who think they are well informed (as you can see on this web site), believe that most muslims in India and elsewhere were converted by force.

This falacy is deep rooted, and they dismiss any evidence or logic presented otherwise. They wont take into account the fact that most muslims were converted by sufis and dervishes. Nizammudin himself is said to have converted over a lakh at his hands, Chisti several lakhs, in between there were thousands of sufis and followers who spread from the frontier, acroos the Sindh- Punjab plains to the gangetic plains and onwards to Bengal and the deccan hence you find thousands of dargahs dotting the subcontinental landscape from Madurai to Swat. Also because hinduism wasnt monolithic intially many of the converted used to worship the pir, and through him Allah. depending upon the pir or the silsila he followed he would convert the follower or not and later on the mullahs/muslim reformists would do try to remove what they considered undesirable practices.

Muslim rulers with the exception of Aurangzeb and a couple others werent really interested in conversions at all, partly this was due to political considerations (because muslims, especially lodhis, Mughals etc had aquired large number of hindu allies and the post aurangzeb mughals were anyway weak) .

but the other significant reason was that muslim kings preferred this arrangement because hindu masses considered the ruler to be a divine manifestation, Some like Akbar used to grant a ritual ``Darshan`` even today if you go to Agra fort the tour guide wil take you to the balcony over looking the Yamuna where Akbar would come in the mornings.

this is not to say that some upper caste hindus did not convert in order to get court priviliges but to cliam that most muslims were converted by force in what constitutes India and Bangladesh today is a fantasy, even on the frontier can any one imagine the Pathans being converted by Force to anything?

Maybe you could add something about conversions in the Pakistani Punjab.

Re: # 96
Dear Lokraj ji

There is no difference between Punjabi/Haryanvi/Rajasthani/Up jats/jutts/jatts. They all belong to Hanuman`s biradri. Somebody stole some body else`s wife but Hanuman burns his back side.

There is an ardaas for the non amrit-dhari jaats/jutts/jats etc.

Jinna singa singniya ne sharaban peetiyan
Naaliyan vich tuthe, kuttay kutiyan kolon muhn chattay
Unha shahidan da dhyaan dhar ke bolo
Jo bole so nihal
Sat sri Akal
Jinay jhalle, babay de palle

hindvi

You are minimizing the role of violence and coercion as much as Indians misunderstand the role and motives of sufis. Both, Islamic political, social, and military coercion and sufi deceipt, worked in tandem against Hinduism. In essence, it was a determined carrot and dagger assault on Indian culture.

Re: # 103

also,his name was actually Hanu Singh Maan and like Gurdas Maan and Babbu Maan,he stopped writing Singh with his name to appear modern and have a wider market.

It is only myth that Amritdharis dont drink.Only Naamdharis are strict about the maryada,for all others it is a matter of convenience.I have some amritdhari relatives who drink and also eat meat.

Everyone who reads and Dio ji

Punjabi jatts are not a special tribe. They come from same genetic pool. Here, Kaurasach ji and Lokraj ji`s statements are correct.
It seems Pakisan is developing another theory of orogin of Punabi jatts and expecting that repeating the same for a few years will make it an absolute truth.
Actually, most of Jatt surnames have origin in Rajasthan and Haryana. Since they were into farming, their movement over centuries went on wherever they found water and fertile land.

Regards

``The history of this whole Indus area is fascinating. I am still trying to figure out why it was always defeated in battle, over 2500 years, by individuals, as far of as Greece and Bihar and Central Asia. When, it is considered to be producing the, ``martial`` races.........Something doesn`t add up..... ``

Romair,your question is very intriguing indeed.I am sure some historians must have tried to look into this.
I dont know when were the jats known as a martial community.If killing a brother or father for a piece of land and ``dakk kay daru pee kay bakkray bulaonay`` and taking pride in declaring themselves as-``putt sardaraaN day,khaan bakkray tay peen sharabaN`` is being martial then yes they are definitely martial.

It depends upon effective leadership..look at china...once known as a country of lazy,opium smoking population got converted into a martial nation under the able leadership and the socio-political structure.

Guru Gobind Singh converted the downtrodden into martial Khalsa(not to be equated with Jutts)
Majority of sikh jarnails including Ranjit Singh were non-jutts.

#107 lokraj ``look into this.
``I dont know when were the jats known as a martial community.If killing a brother or father for a piece of land and ``dakk kay daru pee kay bakkray bulaonay`` and taking pride in declaring themselves as-``putt sardaraaN day,khaan bakkray tay peen sharabaN`` is being martial then yes they are definitely martial.``

One of your friends, Amit I think, was singing the praises of the mighty and fercocious Kharral Rajputs a few weeks ago on this front page. Kharrals are in actual fact Jatts. Ask him what makes Jatts a marital race.

``Majority of sikh jarnails including Ranjit Singh were non-jutts.``

What rubbish. Ranjeet Singh was a Sandhu Jatt from Sukerchak in Gujranwala and with roots going back to Pindi Bhattian. 9 or 10 of the 12 Sikh Misals were ruled by Jatts. Rajneet Singh had a galaxy of Jatt generals including Fateh Khan Tiwana the grandfather of future Punjab PM Malik Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana.


Hello Humsab ji, how are you? Long time no see.

lokraj ``Guru Gobind Singh converted the downtrodden into martial Khalsa(not to be equated with Jutts)``

More nonsense. One of the men Guru Gobind Singh made an extra effort to recruit as a follower and then boasted about it to Aurangzeb when he suceeded (partially), was Chaudhry Kapura, a Barar Jatt of Malwa. Chaudhry Kapura had a sizable private army, controlled several forts and was a local ruler a over a large part of Malwa. Hardly `downtrodden`.


You guys have gotta find some other way of dealing with your inferiority complexes.

dionysus:

Caste configurations are not as clear-cut as many people make them out to be. In Pakistan, you have given the example of Rajput names Parihar, Bhatti and Sial. On this side of the border, none of them is a rajput - Parihar and Bhatti are, I believe, Jutt names while Sials are Khatris. There do not seem to be many Khatris in Pakistan and they seem to be looked down upon whereas in India Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour.

And while the Moochh-MarorH Rajputs in Pakistan and Indian states of Rajasthan are upper castes, in the neighbouring Gujarat, they are classified as backward castes.

Caste hierarchy among the Hindus was never as rigid as it was made out to be. Over time, some castes seem to have been able to improve their status in hierarchy by improving their economic status while others got downgraded as misfortunes befell them.

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dost-mittar ``Rajput names Parihar, Bhatti and Sial.``

I didn`t mention Sials. Sials in West Punjab are Jatts (Heer in the Heer Ranjha story was Sial). The Sials who are Khatris are a different people altogether. It`s just the case of different clans having the same or similar sounding names by conicdnce like Kakkar Pathans and Khatris or indeed Punjabi Jatt and Hindustani Jaat.


``There do not seem to be many Khatris in Pakistan and they seem to be looked down upon whereas in India Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour.``

Khatris are opening up now. For a long time they were buried under the ``Sheikh`` category. But now they are starting to use and display their gotras on their houses. I have two Kapoors, an Uppal and a Sethi in my own mohalla. One of them I know personally and he is VERY proud of Khatri suceess in India.

``ndia Khatri names like Khannas and Kapoors are almost a badge of honour``

That`s not my experience with the Sikhs, at least. Maybe outside of East Punjab it is a badge of honour.

``Caste hierarchy among the Hindus was never as rigid as it was made out to be.``

Caste heirarchy in nonBrahmincal Punjab was never rigid but that isn`t the case in Hindustan. As usual of course you are putting your pro-India pro-Hindu spin on things. Are you really an atheist? You seem a bit confused to me.