Communal Stereotyping in Bollywood Movies

Pakistan Bashing Movies ( PBM`s ) is something very old now - PBM`s was first started with the movie called ` Border ` and then there was this chain of movies - formula was make movies with patriotic themes in order to get sucess like Border - one or two did good but rest failed. Sunny Deol leads the pack in PBM`s because he doesn`t have what it takes to make a movie hit like Sharuk or Khan pact which don`t make or take part in PBM`s .... but things changed after peace talks ... but its alright ..again movies reflects culture and politics - this will happen until world ends.. peace

It was a pity that movies like Fiza and Mission Kashmir failed which were much better than Gadar in all tye deprtments.This cashing of anti Pakistan propaganda started actually with Krantiveer in which Nana Patekar was the hero.Politicians,fundamentalists and a section of press made Pakistan a villain prototype and fuelled national chawnism which was fully exploited by producers of Bollywood whose(barring a handful like Shyam Benegal) only religeon is to make money.
It is pathetic to see how a handful of people in every religeon decides what is derogatory to the religeous sentiments of the masses.

Communal stereotyping or `labeling` happens on every Indian street. Imagine life without sardarji,gujju, bengali, bihari, tamilian jokes :))

Que: Name of the Japanese businessman in Calcutta desperately wanting to pee?

Ans: Thakiyeno Muteyashi!!

Cheers

labyrinth1,
Hindi movies with the exception of a few are plain shit. It does not require any special talent to do a masala movie than a patriotic one. So, Sunny is no way inferior to Shahrukh. Movies with anti-Pak theme were there long before `border`, its just that they did not refer pakistan as such but rather as `dushman`, although the audience knew what they meant.

Don`t know why you feel so bad about the patriotic movies. I am pretty sure that there are anti-India movies made in Pakistan. So it evens out, no problemo.

I hope that the `jo bole so nihal` puts an end to the punjab-da-puttar type films. Sikhs characters don`t have to be jingoistic or macho.

But I am also disturbed by the increasing trend towards opposing films on political grounds. Almost every film would flout political-correctness on one count or another, most of them probably have an element of misogynism in them.

``Garam Hava’, a parallel cinema film highlighted the struggle of Muslim youth in the turbulent times of 70’s and won critical acclaim.``

It was a post partition based movie.

Movies like Border, though ultra-nationalists are based on real life stories. though there is filmi masala too. Similarly can we say that `Haqeeqat`` is a anti-chinese movie? Cinema (hollywood or bollywood) always distorts history to some extent and can be used as a propaganda tool.
With regard to pakis crying foul, here is some info about Lollywoods response:

``Still showing in cinema halls after its release in December 2000, Terey Piyar Mein is about an Indian Sikh girl who falls in love with a Pakistani boy during a visit to Sikh holy shrines in Pakistan. Her Pakistani lover follows her to India where he is caught by an Indian army officer, who is also in love with the Sikh girl. The film ends with Kashmiri militants helping the Pakistani boy escape jail and cross the border into Pakistan with the Sikh girl. In keeping with the Pakistan government`s allegations against Indian security personnel in Kashmir, the film shows the Indian army officer torturing the Pakistani man in jail.

Terey Piyar Mein is not the first effort of famed producer Shahzad Gul to cash in on the anti-India sentiment in Pakistan. A year ago he produced the highly successful Ghar Kab Aao Gey (When Will You Return Home?) that dealt with subversive activities, allegedly carried out by Indian intelligence agencies in Pakistan. ``The success of the movie has made me work on such themes as I realized how a majority in this country thinks,`` Gul said in a press interview.

What Gul did not mention was the help he got from the Pakistani Army`s Inter Services Press Relations department in filming many of the scenes. Terey Piyar Mein was also made with the technical support of the military`s public relations department. The military`s press relations wing has also given financial and technical help to state-run Pakistan Television in the filming of the popular drama series Angaar Wadi, (The Valley of Flames), which deals with the operations of the Indian security forces in Kashmir. ``

rahul,

``garam hava`` was made in the early 70`s, but as stuka said, the timeline of the movie is almost immediately after partition. sadly, it was also balraj sahni`s last film.

Labyrinth,

``Sunny Deol leads the pack in PBM`s because he doesn`t have what it takes to make a movie hit like Sharuk or Khan pact``. You are too hard on Sunny Paaji. As Karan Johar aptly put it, ``the only man amongst boys in Bollywood``. His forte is action, check out his trilogy with Santoshi - ``Ghayal``, ``Damini`` and ``Ghatak``. The `dhai kilo ka haath` he delivered in his cameo in Damini is one of the all-time hit Bollwood dialogues.

Unfortunately, it is tradition of Indian filmdom to punish artists for doing good movies. Take SRK for instance. When he does run of the mill song-and-dance routines, movies click, when he tries something different, they flop. Check out Kabhi Haan Kabhi Na and Swades to understand what I mean. Aamir did a fantastic job in Akele Hum Akele Tum, movie bombed. He did a mediocre Raja Hindustani, it was a runaway success.

Drlokraj,

``Politicians,fundamentalists and a section of press made Pakistan a villain prototype and fuelled national chawnism``

Generally, I`m all for bashing politicians, but here I disagree. One doesn`t need to project Pakistan as a villain in Indian context or viceversa - it is as obvious as it gets. 3-/2 wars, uncountable border skirmishes, regular show of hostility at Wagah, Aurangzeb, Shivaji, Jinnah, Gandhi, Arjun, Khalid, it is an endless list. In my opinion, filmmakers were slow to cash on this perpetual enmity.

Vagabond,

I agree. There is no point in gettng unduly concerned about stereotyping, it is here to stay.

Vivek,

Bollywood movies may be shitty, but we identify more with them. Last year Kunal Kohli released a rip-off of `When Harry Met Sally`, `Hum Tum`. Having watched the original, I didn`t think much of the copy, but all my friends and family were oohing and aahing over how well made the movie was, Rani even managed the filmfare for that.

DMji,

Nobody is ready to give credit to Sunny Paaji for putting Sikhs on the map of Bollywood. Before this, would anyone have dared to cast a turbaned Sikh as the lead protagonist? It is true that the roles are cliched, but a good start nevertheless.

The trend of opposing things under the pretext of `hurts the religious sentiment` has moved to TV commercials too. In the ad of one of the million products which Mr. Bacchan has endorsed, he plays a Padre and wears a slightly dirty cassock. A kid tells him to use a detergent, and lo and behold, the garment is sparkling white. Christian groups have objected to the ad saying that it shows Christianity in a bad light coz the robe is dirty!

Stuka and Ana,

Sorry for the slip! Appreciate u guys pitching in.

Netizen,

What is the language used in Pakistani movies - Urdu or Punjabi? We mostly watch movies on pirated CDs. I believe, most of them are made in Gulf or Pakistan. They always have an ad of some Chintoo candy and promos of Pakistani movies. A particularly hilarious one had a bearded guy in shalwar kameez firing in the air like there was no tomorrow and some scantily clad bimbo dancing to the tune of `dile de tu Punjabi, nach Punjabi, nach` or some such :-)

rahulmal,
Absolutely, everybody has the right to see what they want. I agree our films are the way they are because our audience likes it that way. Its a fact that Ingmar Bergman wouldn`t have survived Indian audience.

From what I have read, the authorities are saying it is the islamic terrorists that are responsible for the blasts, trying to blame the sikhs for it. No sikh militant group (if there are any around) has claimed responsibility.
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/05/24/afx2049902.html

Also, the christian groups are not complaining about the Bachchan ad because his robe is dirty, but because the ad uses the line ``...And then there was light``, which is from the bible. Christian groups are complaining that sacred text from the bible should not be used for commercial purposes.

Re: # 11

I guess it is urdu as it will have a larger audience in and outside pak. The title like Terey Piyar Mein, Ghar Kab Aao Gey, Angaar Wadi are in hindustani not punjabi. Theres one more Mussalman. There was a punjabi hit movie from 40, Yaamla Jat.

Mailviya Bhai,
What is your point?

We all know that these movies are meant to capitalize on the majority population`s sense of humor. Sikh`s image is always distorted delibrately to have Fun. Jutt or No-Jutt, practising Sikhs don`t have any caste system. Rest are fair weather, cultural Sikhs with no idea of what this is about.

Nobody makes movies showing Muslims negatively because they know that there will be riots and also Bollywood has considerable Muslim population. None of the Censor Board is a practicing Sikh. It sounds so ridiculous when Ponty Chadda and Rawail say that they are also Sikhs.

As far as Sikh`s stand is concerned on this; all the major Sikh institutions have rightfuly condemned these blasts. There is no room for Violence to kill inncocents in Sikhism.
Immediately after the blast SGPC, DSGPC and Manmohan Singh(Sikh) went to the Hospitals unlike the Muslims after 9-11, when it took them 4-6 weeks to even make a statement.

Maybe, Bollywood can redeem itself by making at least one movie showing a Sikh character in positive light, I am not talking religously but socially.

Thanks for listening.

Delhiwala,

``practising Sikhs don`t have any caste system`` :-)

I`ll answer your post later...gtg now

Delhiwala,
I dont think by showing sikh humorous characters,bollywood moviemakes intend to make fun of the religeon.Maximum jokes on themselves are told by sikhs only and being able to laugh on oneself is agreat attribute and this is great punjabi character-something to do with the culture...a big heart is needed for this.
``Practising sikhs dont have any caste system``...that would have been the ideal situation,but it got confined to books only and is the biggest tragedy of this great religeon.
Dara Singh made a movie in 70s, on Giani Bhajan Singh`s great novel(Gagan Damama Bajeyo) on the glorious period of sikhism of the 18th century when they were fighting gorilla wars against mughals but Santa Singh(Budha Dal Nihang Chief) did not let it be shown as he objected to non sikhs portraying sikh characters.Dara Singh himself being sikh went through hell to get the picture released.Non sikh movie makers dont dare because of such problems,though there have been movies like Jeevan Mrityu,Roti Kapda aur Makaan,Border,Shaheed-e-Mohabbat Boota Singh etc. showing positive sikh characters.Another point is that non-punjabis dont make much distinction between sikhs and punjabis.

Vivek bhai and others ,
I am not against patriotic movies and let me assure in Pakistan if we make movies and dramas about wars with India , Pakistani Directors projects enemies ( Indians ) soldiers as proffesional army men and theres this respect for them ... where as Indian directors does the opposite which I assue is lack of knowledge ...bollywood projects all Pakistanis and Muslims in India as ultra religious with beards wearing shalwar kameez , bollywood projects Indian knowledge about Pakistan which is so not true .....

Morning Raga:

I saw this film Morning Raga last night which, happily, does not stereotype South Indians. It is about a young fellow musician who wants to start a music group and tries to get a classic Carnatic singer to be part of his modern band. A nicely made film, with a fine performance by Shabana Azmi as a Carnatic singer, it`s hard to believe she is only lip-singing. The fusion song with a Carnatic singer and western musical instruments is one of the best fusion pieces I have heard. An hour and a half well spent.

labyrinth1,
Stereotypes are part and parcel of hindi cinema. Take a look at the sikh jokes or south indians speaking with an accent which I have never heard any south indian speak with, or the portrayel of bengalis. The point is hindi movie makers dont do any research. The movie is made with crude generalisations and its unlikely to change. I dont think that people think all south indians speak with the accent they show in movies, so its unlikely that Indians are going to judge Pakistanis based on what they see in a hindi movie.

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Indian movies reflect the little knowledge that Indians have about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl. The movie veer zaara, though well intentioned tried to depict Punjabi Muslims in Pakistan as if they were UP vallah`s. No one in Lahore who is Lahori actually is like those ppl in the film, and they don`t speak Urdu at home either!

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#11

As far as i`m aware the majority of Pakistani films are produced in Punjabi and the majority of dramas are produced in Urdu.

If you ever get a chance see a Pakistani Punjabi movie, they are hilariously badly done, and they are full of sexual innuendo, the women wear very tight clothes and show off a lot of their cleavage.

I remember going to see either Humayun Gujjar or Badmash Gujjar, and in one of the songs, she sings `mera mahi kol avey, mey munjey vich Dang phera` (sorry i dont know how to translate that) or similar words, at that point the audience burst out laughing.

Pakistani films will make you laugh. Though the older films were actually not bad, esp the Black and White ones.

Re: # 22
I am surprised that you are saying this. Even at Chowk many Punjbais have claimed that Urdu is the main language and only older Lahoris speak Punjabi.
Your leaders have delibrately replaced Islamic Urdu over Punjabi.

At least this is what I have heard from travellers and people on the Chowk.

labyrinth....it really does not matter how India/Indians are depicted in puki movies because none of us watch them anyway....you are just little people trying to act `macho` by showing off your 1-inchers...

delhiwala,

It would be lovely if you went to Lahore yourself and experienced it. I don`t know what kind of experience you will have, this depends on the type of people you will meet. I can only speak from my expreience, which has been that in my family in Lahore, everyone speaks Punjabi, they only speak Urdu at school or at work, where they have to, but the street language and language of everyday life is Punjabi, if you go to the bazaars etc, you will hear Punjabi, even at many official places people talk to each other in Punjabi.

Nowadays, Punjabi is getting a bit of a renaissance, however, the elite ppl still speak Urdu (although they all know Punjabi, they speak Urdu due to the snob effect!), and the govt. has never given official patronage or encouragement to Punjabi language, whereas in Sindh, Sindhi ppl have demanded their rights and their language is given more importance as compared to Punjabi in Punjab.

My fathers family in Faisalabad and other towns only speak Punjabi, though they can understand Urdu most of the cannot speak it. My cousins who went to school can speak Urdu and to some degree a little English, however the language we speak in everyday all the time is Punjabi, Urdu and English are only for dealing with officialdom.

Even without any official support, and sometimes govt bullying (all the Punjabi magazines that were shut down and told to stop publishing in the 60`s and 70`s) Punjabi is still very much alive in Pakistani Punjab, and is still the mother tongue of most of Pakistan`s population.

Regards `Islamic` Urdu, many of the best Urdu authors are actually Hindu, Munshi Prem Chand etc. Urdu is actually an Indian language, it is not an indeginous Pakistani language, it has become now, due to the large amount of people in Karachi who are from UP and whose mother tongue Urdu is. These people are now Pakistani, and therefore so is their language, why the govt. adopted Urdu as the official language i do not know the history. There is a large amount of Arabic/Persian/Turkish words in Urdu which is why it has been associated with Muslims and Islam, though a language can`t really belong to a religion, it belongs to a people irrespective of religion. Our Punjabi too has become very Arabic/Persian/Turkified, which is why there are many words that people from accros the border use that we do not understand and vice versa, though there is apparently a commitee working in Chandigarh and Lahore who are trying to bring the two Punjabi`s more closer in terms of vocabulary.

Re: # 17

Where are you getting your information?
Which Sikh is telling Twelve O`Clk jokes for himself?

Give me a break.

Zail Singh Jokes are different, that I can understand but if repeatedly one person is sidelined due to his appearance, then it is nothing but stereo casting, you know it and everybody knows it. In Western world there are even laws about these days.

You try to say a Jewish, Polish, Woman joke etc at your work place then see what happens.

I have seen school principal and teachers slapping Sikh students at many schools in India and saying derogatorily ``Tere Bara BuJ gaya hai kya``. Such like stories are so prevalent, you don`t have perspective on this situation.

Is this also OK in your eyes?

Rahulmal: Before you anything please consider what I said, ``practising Sikh don`t believe in caste`` Practising is not someone who was just born in a Sikh family.

Ally: Thanks for your clairification, I am glad that you are saying that Punjabi is still surviving.
Urdu being Islamic comment:

I think that I can say for all Indians, when I say that Urdu is pretty much exclusive to Muslims in India. No new Non-Muslim speakers of Urdu are added in India since 1947.

Even though origin was an amalgam of hindi, turki or arabi, it is still considered Muslim language, most probably due to it`s script being Arabic and not Devnagri related.

#15

``Maybe, Bollywood can redeem itself by making at least one movie showing a Sikh character in positive light, I am not talking religously but socially.``

Man, Delhiwala you are one champion whiner.

Sure Hindi movies are not devoid of its seterotypes, but to allege that hindi movies have gone out of their way to disrespect Sikh`s is way off base. Apart from some of the usual jokes, Sardar`s are usually shown as noble and honest in Bollywood movies (which too is a false seterotype).

How about this, Sikh`s probably consitute the single largest numbers of illegal immigrants from India, thus forcing all other Indian`s to go through great scrutinity on their visas`s. I have never seen the illegal immigrant Sikh setreotype in Indian popular culture.

Punjabi and Sikh culture is the one most celebrated by Bollywood. lets take the song sequence from ``Kal ho na ho`` which pokes fun at Gujju`s (remember G-U-J-J-U?) and then is followed by a rousing Bhangda-Shangda sequence. In fact that that particular movie propagates several negative seterotypes of Gujarati`s while celebrating Punjabi culture, but I dont see Gujarati`s complain, maybe its Gujju`s and not Sikh`s who are large-hearted, c`est na pas?

For that matter why is that no hero in bollywood movies is a Bannerjee or a Das, instead its always an Singh, Arora, Kapoor, Malhotra ...?

Seems like I should be the one doing the whining ...

bongdongs:

how about those lines in ``monsoon wedding`` where the bengali duo ask their punjabi friend, ``why are you punjabis so ostentatious.`` and the punjabi`s response: ``why are you bengalis so pretentious?``

and there are some punjabis and bengalis who admit to being each of those respectively. :)

Re: # 26
dont over-generalize and dont consider yourself to be the sole representative of sikhs and also dont go into a shell .These are just your personal views.

Is Bibi Jagir Kaur a practicing sikh or was she elected president of SGPC just because she was born in sikh family? She got her daughter murdered because the daughter married outside the caste(though the boy was sikh).And this is just tip of the iceberg.
Read Manto`s story ``Mozail``if you can get hold of it.

Delhi Bhai,

DrLokraj has explained the caste point very well in 17, it is an ideal, not the ground reality. KPS Gill broke the back of militancy in Punjab by invoking Jat pride. He frequently referred to struggle against militancy being Jat Sikh bunaam Jat Sikh. The boys from villages of Punjab were given 2000 per month, gun and freedom to `deal` with militants.

My take on language: Urdu and Hindi have the same root. A couple of centuries back, it was called Hindustani. If not for the script difference, most people of India and Pakistan would add both Hindi and Urdu in their CVs. If I learn the Arabo-Persian script, I can kick ass of many-a-pretenders from the other side of the border, in Urdu I mean :-) Infact, one of my buddies has proved this. He writes Urdu poetry and does a great job at it.

[I think that I can say for all Indians, when I say that Urdu is pretty much exclusive to Muslims in India. No new Non-Muslim speakers of Urdu are added in India since 1947.]#27

...this kind of stupid generalization is heard from harvard graduates only... i recently met a pundit family from lucknow and their urdu put me to shame...it was classical urdu which we from punjab will never be able to master... the sheen, qaaf was perfect and that included their kids too who were under 25...

Re: # 24
re: avenger123 / prashant123 / gujjubaniya:
///....it really does not matter how India/Indians are depicted in puki movies because none of us watch them anyway....you are just little people trying to act `macho` by showing off your 1-inchers...///

Delicious irony. Thanks for a good belly laugh, Gujju

A_S

Re: # 30

BIBI Jagir kaur??....Where are you from?. A village?...Jeez..Give the woman some respect.She`s the president of the SGPC.Not your sister.

Some cool pics of indian metros....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=215628

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212621

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=215851

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=216589

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=216144

Is definitely more enjoyable than reading this article.

Re: # 35
Dear Cayenne,

Thanks so much for the pictures. I was going out of my mind with all this sensitivity claptrap. Thank gods for India tumescent. And your godssent images saved my mind from thinking. So what if a theatre in my town playing a movie that I wanted to see was bombed ? What problems like these need are more pictures of Hiranandani, taken at night time lest we see some unShining Indians.

Cheers,

A_S

delhiwalla #27: ``I think that I can say for all Indians, when I say that Urdu is pretty much exclusive to Muslims in India. No new Non-Muslim speakers of Urdu are added in India since 1947.``

If this is true, then I must say it is quite sad. Urdu is a beautiful language. It`s poetry is so powerful. It is sad to see that it is divided along religious lines in India, if what you say is correct. Urdu is truly the Kohinoor of India. It originated in India, itself, being a combination of the various cultures that swept through Indus and Ganga regions..........One can, perhaps, attirbute the courtly language of Persian as an imposition on India. But Urdu was born in India.....Actually, there was no India, back then, so a creation of the Sub-Continent......

There are far more individuals who consider Urdu their mother tongue, in India, then there are in Pakistan............

So much so, that the spoken language in India is more Urdu than Hindi. The words used in popular Bollywood movies are Urdu, grammatically, moreso than Hindi........In fact, Urdu is the second most spoken langauge in the world, after Mandarin (I am assuming the spoken form of Hindi to be Urdu)...........

``Even though origin was an amalgam of hindi, turki or arabi, it is still considered Muslim language, most probably due to it`s script being Arabic and not Devnagri related.``

You have a tendency to look at everything from religious lines. And that too in a construed manner. Urdu falls into the category of Indo-European languages. Urdu`s origin is actually rooted mostly in Turkish. It`s script is actually an Arabic-Persian script. This script has nothing to do with Islam. Arabic script, names etc. pre-date Islam by many centuries. Even now in Arab countries, there are Chrisitians (and I assume Jews also) with Arabic names. Who read and write Arabic script, like Hussain, Ali etc. Because they are Arabs............And Pakistani and Persian Parsis share common names with Pakistani and Iran Muslims, like Jamshed, Pervez etc..........

There is no, ``Islamic`` language, as such.......Be it Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu etc. Relgions don`t create or obliterate languages. They adapt to the langauges..........

If we use your logic, then Punjabi is a Sikh language. And everyone who is not a Sikh should stop speaking it. And no new Non-Sikh speaker of Punjabi should be added to Punjab..................In fact, if you trace the roots of Punjabi back to its origin, then it becomes, using your definition, a Hindu language...........Hence, extrapolating your logic, only Hindus should speak it. When in fact, today, the largest speakers of Punjabi in the world, by a large margin are Muslims........

Some of the greatest writers and poets in Urdu, like Faiz and Iqbal are originally Punjabi speakers. Ghalib, easily the best poet ever of Urdu, and perhaps of any language in South Asia (or even the world), wrote his best work in Persian. Yet also wrote in Urdu, also..........Iqbal wrote in Persian also......Some of the best Urdu singers are Punjabi speakers, and some of the best Punjabi singers are Urdu speakers......

You would be well-advised to get out of relating everything, from langauge onwards, to religion. I can understand your addiction, for religious reasons, to Punjabi. But you should not force it upon others. Others should be free to follow any language that appeals to them. If a Hindu likes Urdu, he/she should add himself/herself to the list of Urdu speakers, without worrying about the language`s, ``religion.``

In today`s world, languages need a nation surrrounding them to survive. This is due to economic reasons. Hebrew is only surviving because of the creation of Israel. Urdu will survive because of the creation of Pakistan. Bengali because of Bangladesh. Pushtu because of Afghanistan. Farsi because of Iran. So on and so forth. Some countries, as they progress are bringing back old langauges. Gallic in Ireland being an example, which is their official langauge along with English. However, Wales will have a hard time bringing Welsh back, as it is a part of UK, and not a fully independent country.

Quebecors will break away from Canada, tomorrow, if French ceases to be a national language. Keeping a language alive requires a lot of effort and struggle.

If people voluntarily amulgamate themselves, into a nation, then they have, themselves accepted the eventual domination of the national language over their local and/or religious language. They have chosen the economic benefits of being in a large country, over the linguistic benefits of keeping, ``their`` language alive.

I think when the Sardarjis voluntarily accepted joining with India, they voluntarily also accepted that Punjabi - the language of their religion - would die down also. Because Punjabi would be a tiny minority in a large country, which had Hindi and English as the major langauges. If they were passionately concerned about Punjabi`s survival, they should have asked for a nation of their own. At the very least, they should struggle within India, for linguistic rights, much like the Quebecors in Canada, if they are so passionate about the language of their religion. Currently Punjabi is recognized as a language by the Indian Constitution. However, I am not sure if that is enough for it to survive the economic forces of Hindi and English.

Declaring Urdu an Islamic langauge, that no non-Muslim should learn in India, and one that should be considered, ``alien`` in Pakistan, to push the survival of Punjabi is an illogical and counterproductive solution.............

vivek #4: ``Don`t know why you feel so bad about the patriotic movies. I am pretty sure that there are anti-India movies made in Pakistan. So it evens out, no problemo.``

There are very few, if any, anti-India movies made in Pakistan. There is no market for them. The reason is quite simple: Pakistanis have become far too exposed to India, over the years, through various reasons; Indian movies being one of them. Hence it is quite difficult to sell an out and out anti-India movie in Pakistan. (I think it is slowly becoming difficult to sell anti-Pakistan movies in India also, as Indians have started learning about Pakistan)........

So the same thing will happen in India, as Indians gain more knowledge of Pakistan. For example, those Indians who visited Pakistan, during the cricket matches, will now, probably, think twice, before accepting anti-Pakistan movies.

Anti-any country movies only thrive when people exist in a vacuum about the, ``other.`` The fact that you are, ``pretty sure`` that there are anti-India movies made in Pakistan, even though you have no knowledge of Pakistani movies, is an indication that this vacuum still exists in India..........However, as you learn about Pakistani movies and about Pakistan, the vacuum will (hopefully) disappear in India, also.........

Netizen #14: ``I guess it is urdu as it will have a larger audience in and outside pak.``

How many Pakistani movies, in any language, have you seen?

The largest movie industry in Pakistan is in Punjabi. Urdu movie industry nearly died. It is only now being revived. By far the most popular movie actors and actresses in Pakistan are famous for Punjabi movies.............

re: Romair # 39

Has Pakistan ever produced an anti Hindu movie?


re: Romair # 40

Urdu is a non Islamic, Indian language. Yet from the start, the elite of a country that was supposed to be Islamic and not a part of India committed themselves to this Indian, non Islamic language and helped it dominate Pakistan`s local languages. How come?

By any objective measure, local languages, including Punjabi, are in stronger position in India than they are in Pakistan.

Romair,

This is what Wikipedia says

``The largest difference between Urdu and Hindi is that Urdu is written in the Nasta`liq form of the modified Arabic script while Hindi is written in the Devanagari script.``

This is from the Hindi link

``Hindi along with Urdu is the second most spoken language in the world, after Chinese.``

So, both of us went to the same source and came out with different conclusions :-) You`ve found what massages your ego and I`ve found what interests me. We can argue till the end of time, but the fact is that Urdu/Hindi are one and the same language written in different scripts. Urdu became the rallying point of partition-partisans as reflected in slogan ``Urdu, Muslim, Pakistan`` while Hindi became the counter-point, ``Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan``.

It doesn`t take much to spin a new language if you have the political clout. The CARs are a case to support my point. Early 20th century, all CARs spoke mutually intelleigible forms of Turkish. The Russians made each of these dialects the official language of the corresponding republic and today Uzbek, Tukrmen, Kazakh and Kirghiz are pretty much different languages. Do you know what is the official language of Indonesia and how did it come into being?

``If they (Sardarjis) were passionately concerned about Punjabi`s survival, they should have asked for a nation of their own``

This tells us where you are coming from.

Bhains ke aage been bajawe, bhains khadi paguraaye Since Hindi and Urdu are different languages, you`ll not understand what is written above and I`ll be spared the reprisals, Thank God...

#39 Romair ``How many Pakistani movies, in any language, have you seen? ``
Yaar Romair I still get nightmares from the memory - condemned in afterlife to watching that Pakistani pichure forever....oooh....there is story behind how I came to watch but it is too painful to recount.
But it is not all that bad - been a big admirer of the TV plays and comedies (incl Bakra Kishton Pay).

Romair #38,
My point is that don`t expect hindi movies to project anything with sensitivity.

``wah bhaee wah!

aaj tO yahaaN urdu aur hindi per baat ho rahi hay

humaray ghalib chacha is ko hindustani kehtay thay

yeh aaj bhee hindustan aur pakistan donON kay aik buhat baRay hissay maiN boli aur samjhi jaat hay``

***

now two questions:

(for those who are familiar with hindu only)

1: what is the language of this quote?

(for those who are familiar with urdu only)

2: what is the language of this quote?

The Hindi-Urdu controversy is little more than debate over the script in which a common spoken language - Hindustani - should be written.

I have no real idea about the Hindi/Urdu debate, and can`t really get involved because i am not qualified enough to, however, from my personal experience i can say this.

When i listen to Urdu news i understand the majority of it, all those persian turkish arabic words, because i was taught them and we also use a lot of those words in Punjabi too, however, when i switch over to star news and listen to the Hindi news, often i get lost and bored, because i don`t understand the key words that are being said, and also why can`t the Hindi newscasters say `kh` and `gh`? by saying `k and `g` they sound so unsophisticated and slum dweller type, when in fact in Devanagri there are letters for `kh` and `gh`. KH as in Khwaja and GH as in Ghareeb, yani key khey aur ghain.

Khair i don`t really listen to star news anymore, Geo Khaber zindabad!!!

ally

The problem isn`t that we can`t pronounce `kh` and `gh`. It`s that we don`t know which sound goes with what word. :)

Official Hindi and official Urdu now differ from Hindustani only in that the former borrows heavily from Sanskrit-based languages while the latter borrows from Persian (earlier) and Arabic (increasingly now). Thus your experience is mirrored when we listen to Urdu news: we know what they are talking about but many of the words they use seem `unnatural` and `strained` to us. Seemingly, the elite and the officialdoms in both India and Pakistan have been working overtime to build differences!

Re: # 27
``I think that I can say for all Indians, when I say that Urdu is pretty much exclusive to Muslims in India. No new Non-Muslim speakers of Urdu are added in India since 1947.``

That may not be true. People who speak Hindi also very widely use Urdu words, some even speak pure Urdu too as I saw in Lucknow and Hyderabad. And these are Hindu speakers.

Also how many people in Pakistan learn Hindi for that matter. And yet, they speak plenty of Hindi words.

delhiwalla...why didn`t you learn Urdu? Mayeb we can have at least one Non-Muslim speaker of Urdu added in India since 1947.

Re: # 27
``I think that I can say for all Indians, when I say that Urdu is pretty much exclusive to Muslims in India. No new Non-Muslim speakers of Urdu are added in India since 1947.``

That may not be true. People who speak Hindi also very widely use Urdu words, some even speak pure Urdu too as I saw in Lucknow and Hyderabad. And these are Hindu speakers.

Also how many people in Pakistan learn Hindi for that matter. And yet, they speak plenty of Hindi words.

delhiwalla...why didn`t you learn Urdu? Maybe we can have at least one Non-Muslim speaker of Urdu added in India since 1947.

re: Bollywood movies
I think Bollywood movies are fun to watch if u are willing to suspend your brain activity for the 3 hours u are watching them and do not try to make any sense out of them. That said, i did like the last movie i saw that goes by the name of ``Black``. It had some superb actiing by a kid who acts as deaf and dumb and good acting by Rani Mukherjee. AB did a lot of overaciting but i am sure most Indians would not even notice it.
Steroetyping about ``madrassi`` character has gone on for so long that this is not even funny anymore. Movies in the 50s and 60s made fun of the ``madrassi`` accent and ``dosa`` or ``idli`` eating madrassi. Now-a-days, these are common items even in North. Besides, third generation ``Madrassis`` like me can put a North Indian to shame with my ``faultless`` hindi. So, i think the moronic North Indians have yet to realize that these things are not funny but annoying.
Somebody said ``Nobody makes movies showing Muslims negatively because they know that there will be riots and also Bollywood has considerable Muslim population....``
That is not true. Muslims are shown either as very patriotic or as smugglers or villains. How many hindi movies have shown a muslim character as a normal being doing things that normal beings do? Not one, i bet. Has Bollywood ever made a movie in which a muslim character was a hero? or a Sikh character? See my point?
Sridhar

Re: # 46
Ally, just like you can`t speak good Hindi even if you try to( not that you will)...similarly why should Hindi speakers be expected to speak Urdu words in the same manner as Urdu speakers. Hindi speakers are proud of their ancietn Sanskrit heritage just as you all are of your Arabic/Perisn one.

My father (I don`t call him Abbu....I call him Dad...because if I call him `Pita ji` or `Pita Shri` then non-Hindus will make fun of me, calling me a Hindu fanatic, that is because I am a majority).
anyway..my father basically was from pre-partition India(renamed Pakistan later) and live dther till the age of 8 or 9. He loved speaking in Urdu and writing too. But I feel I`ll vomit if I try to say GH...KH...really I get a strange feeling and stomach churning when I listen to very pure Urdu.
Simple nice Urdu is fine and sweet but the heavy Persian/Arabic style doesn`t appeal me at all.

re:#19 by dost-mittar
I saw ``Morning Raga`` too. Amazing acting by Shabana Azmi who acts as a Carnatic singer. I saw an interview by her on T.V some months ago (before the movie was released). She said she had to learn the basics of Carnatic singing before actiing in the movie. She actually sang a ``Ganapathi Stuti`` to the utter delight of my mom who was watching the program on T.V with me at that time.
Sridhar

Re: # 36

Dear Aha_Snarl,

Ask the puthars who bombed the theater in Delhi about your misgivings.AAH!!.So, Aha_Snark did check out the links.You PHONY you.I`m sorry , i find this article quite blase`, if you will.I`d look at photos of unShining indians too.Why?.Ain`t i communicating with you?.I am considerate to all.


Kisses,

cayenne

re: Romair`s post
``I think when the Sardarjis voluntarily accepted joining with India, they voluntarily also accepted that Punjabi - the language of their religion - would die down also. Because Punjabi would be a tiny minority in a large country, which had Hindi and English as the major langauges. If they were passionately concerned about Punjabi`s survival, they should have asked for a nation of their own. At the very least, they should struggle within India, for linguistic rights, much like the Quebecors in Canada, if they are so passionate about the language of their religion. Currently Punjabi is recognized as a language by the Indian Constitution. However, I am not sure if that is enough for it to survive the economic forces of Hindi and English.``
This is the kind of crap that goes to prove Romair mian is still on the stuff that is peddled from across the Afghan border.
Sikhs have preserved Punjabi much better than Punjabis in Pakistan have preserved it. Punjabi hegemony in Pakistan is causing much friction with Sindhis. Sindhis are now questioning their right of accession to Pakistan.
Sridhar

re: Romair`s post
``How many Pakistani movies, in any language, have you seen? ...``
Are they still making movies in Pakistan? I thought that was as good as dead. Meeras of this world can relax. Bollywood is welcoming them with open arms.
Sridhar

vivek #43: ``My point is that don`t expect hindi movies to project anything with sensitivity.``

All said and done, I have to admit I am a pretty big fan of Indian movies. I have seen them all; including the ones that are heavily anti-Pakistan. There have been quite a few (actually few hundred) boring nights, I have spent in the boondocks of Pakistan, where the only entertainment available to us was Indian movies. So I cannot complain.........

They aren`t that great, but they are good enough. And most of all, nothing better is available in a non-foreign language. And the Indian actresses have started looking better and better. Some of them, like Karishma Kapoor, have even started spending time in the gym........

I started watching Indian movies exactly in the summer vacations of 1980. Laawaris, with Amitabh and Zeenat Aman was the first one I watched. Raaz, the mystery movie, with Raakhi (?) and Raj Babbar was the second. Followed by one with Poonam and Rekha (can`t remember the name). They were both married to the same guy - Rishi Kapoor.

So if we average one movie per week (including re-runs), over 25 years, that equals around 1500 movies. The real figure is probably quite a bit lower, but definitely well into the hundreds........

In any case, for any of Indian colleagues on this site: Pakistanis have moved on. They moved on, a while back. Barring a small minority, they are not into anti-India stuff. It is pretty difficult for the govt. to get them riled up on things like Siachen, BJP etc. It is evident on this site, and it is evident in events like cricket matches, etc. And in surveys........Hardly anyone in Pakistan complained when Musharraf significantly altered Pakistan`s position on Kashmir, recently.......

Even, Dost-mittar, who is convinced that every Muslim in the world is commanded by Islam to kill him, since he is a Hindu, seems to feel relatively safe in Pakistan........

I think Indians are slowly starting to move on, regarding anti-Pakistan stuff also. It will take some time to filter out the govt. propoganda, since most know next to nothing about Pakistan. But as they learn more about Pakistan, they will move on faster. While it is still possible to get Indians riled up on things like Kargil etc., however I think the market for anti-Pakistan movies, in India, is dying down. Movies like Veer-Zara etc. seem to be the new flavor of the month, in India.........

There are many Pakistanis who have written articles, on this site, on prominent Indians. I have, myself, written two. There is one from a Pakistani on the front page, right now. Perhaps the day isn`t far off, when we will see the first Indian on this site, write an article about a prominent Pakistani. It hasn`t happened yet. But there is still hope...........

I would like to make one suggestion: instead of being, ``pretty sure`` about things, which have not been explored. One should have, ``no opinion,`` then explore them and then form an opinion.............

Stereotyping in movies exists not only in Bollywood but in Hollywood and probably all other film industries as well. Some people find stereotyped roles to be derogatory while others have a good laugh and just brush them off. Jo Bole So Nihal is but an example as there are some who have an issue with it, while others don`t. The punch line of the movie, ``No if, no but, sirf Jatt`` is in principle against the Sikh religion. Objection to that by a Sikh religious body is understandable but not arguments like only Sikhs should play Sikh roles in movies. That is just plain stupid. Calling for a ban of the movie is also a very unwelome move as are statements by the SGPC head to the effect that Sikhs know how to deal with this in their own way. The SGPC is in no way representative of the Sikh community or its mouthpiece for that matter. However, they have rightly condemned the violence as any protests to the movie should`ve been made in a democratic manner.

Good cinema, for me, is cinema that breaks through stereotypes and is thought provoking. There is certainly a dearth of such cinema the world over. It`s perhaps easier to conform to set norms.

It is true that there are very few roles in Bollywood that are multidiemsional as far as Sikhs are concerned. They are either made fun off or their bravery and valor is exemplified be it in the army or otherwise. I maybe wrong, but prior to Jo Bole, I remember only Vijeta as having a turbuned Sikh as the (young) lead character. Sikhs appear in Bollywood more often than not for comic effect.

Cayenne, the SGPC head is addressed as Bibi Jagir Kaur; absolutely nothing wrong with that. Calling someone ``Bibi`` is in no way disrespescting them and being from the villages does not imply being unknowledgeable.

A true Sikh, someone who beleives in the Guru, will never support the caste system. I guess that is what Delhiwala means when he says ``practicing sikhs``. As far as I remember, Bibi Jagir Kaur had an issue with her daughter`s wedding not beause the boy was from another caste but because he was not a keshadhari Sikh, i.e, he did not have unshorn hair. Her alleged involvement in her daughter`s wedding is disturbing to say the least.

I haven`t got a chance to read all the interacts but I did glance through some and came across arguments about the status of punjabi in Pakistan. None of my Pakistani Punjabi friends speak Punjabi at home or otherwise as they consider it to be unsophisticated and below their status. To speak flawless Urdu is a confirmation of their elite status. Without doubt Punjabi is faring better in Indian Punjab as it is taught in shools and there is a vibrant Punjabi Press. As far as I remember, there is only one school in Pakistan (in Lahore) where Punjabi is taught and one Punjabi magazine.

Romair, please do not refer to Sikhs as Sardarjis as the latter implies only the male population of the Sikhs and has also become a derogatory term, one that is used in Sikh jokes. I don`t agree with you when you say that for a language to survive, a separate nation needs to be formed. India was a unique experiment in that sense and even today every state has its own language(s) that are taught in schools and are part of the government machinery of the state. However, the world over, English has today become the most coveted language due to economic benefits. Even France is beginning to come to terms with that. So being a nation does not guarantee preservation of a language. If the predominant language of the world has become English, it will remain the most sought after language irrespective of the native language. At the state level in India, efforts(however inadequate) are made to preserve the langauge of the land. Not so in Pakistan.

``Ghalib, easily the best poet ever of Urdu, and perhaps of any language in South Asia (or even the world), wrote his best work in Persian.`` This is very very subjective so don`t make a generalization of it. Saying that Ghlalib is the best poet ever of Urdu is completely different from saying that he was perhaps the best of any South Asian language. How many other South Asian poets have you studied?

Every language is beautiful and to say that any one is more so than the other is pure chauvanism. Language should also transcend religious lines and be preserved and promoted at both the State and people to people level.

re: simran # 57

Excellent post.

{A minor point. When you said that ``No if, no but, sirf Jatt`` is in principle against the Sikh religion,`` did you have in mind the wrong impression the punch line may give that the Sikh religion is only for `Jatts?`}

Re: # 47
You have put linguistic issue put in right perspective.
Masses are never bothered about these issues as majority are still struggling to meet their basic needs and the ruling classes keep doing their job of creating the divide silently.Before the Hindi-Urdu dichotomy,the spoken language was called Hindostani or Hindvi and did not have any religeous connotations.
It was primarily same language with regional dialects from Sindh to the Brahamputra.
As language is the biggest uniting force,there have been conscious efforts to use the same for dividing people by breaking,distorting or even camouflaging it and they have been successful in that.That is why different scripts were adopted for Punjabi on both sides of the border-majority of the Punjabis on east side dont know what is being written in Punjabi on the other side and vice versa because they cant read each other`s script.On west side,there are forces which ant to make Saraiki a separate language and may be even Potohari and on east side,already Dogri(which is a dilect of Punjabi)has been accorded the status of an independent language and it is written in devnagri and not gurmukhi.
Somebody said,we cant follow lot of words spoken in Urdu news on Pakistani channels,similarly we can`t follow many words in Hindi news on Door Darshan.This is deliberate on both sides.Considering what politicians,beaurocrats and their sponsored liguistic experts and the sarkari adeeb have done in terms of creating divisions,what bollywood has done is nothing.Bollywood has just tried to encash those stereotypes and their impact is very superficial and short lasting.

dear Simran

i dont think you have read Ghalib. or if you have you havent understood his idiom or expresion. i dont blame you since in India he isnt taught at school, but ghalib precedes all existentialists including their father Nietzsche. the depth of his poetry can only be described as singular. muslims cannot own him because most of his poetry is agnostic in character and non muslims cannot follow him because most dont understand his language. few can follow him even in the city he lived most of his life in.

Simran ji
# 57

You wrote:-
The punch line of the movie, ``No if, no but, sirf Jatt`` is in principle against the Sikh religion.
Will you please enlighten me how it is against Sikh religion and where is this connection?

Regards and thanks in anticipation

#34 Khamkhwa

``...this kind of stupid generalization is heard from harvard graduates only... i recently met a pundit family from lucknow and their urdu put me to shame...it was classical urdu which we from punjab will never be able to master... the sheen, qaaf was perfect and that included their kids too who were under 25...``

Why should Punjabi ppl `Master` Urdu, the fact that we can get our point across sufficiently in Urdu is good enough, how many Urdu speakers have mastered Punjabi, come to think of it how many Urdu speakers can get their point across in Punjabi at all?

Punjabi is not better than Urdu, and Urdu is not better than Punjabi. Punjabi ppl should not be made to feel lesser because they do not speak flawless Urdu. Sindhi, Balochi, Kashmiri, Pathan, and Punjabi ppl all have accents when they speak Urdu this is because it is not their mother tongue and if an Urdu speaker was to learn any of their languages s/he too would have an accent. The fact that almost everyone in Pakistan understands Urdu is a miracle in itself.

People think that Punjabi is crude, unsophisticated and lacks much vocabulary, but they often forget that the great saints they all revere such as Bulleh Shah and Baba Nanak Dev, all wrote unmatched poetry in this very language, many hundreds of years ago.

Urdu can be extremely crude too, with the `tere ko mere ko bola re` street style, and Punjabi can and does sound very polite when spoken with respect and softness to your parents or elders, or anyone else for that matter.

The point is any language can be made to sound crude or polite depending on the speaker and the situation.

Simran Ji,

You made some very good points, and i agree with your post, however, where you mention your Pakistani Punjabi friends only speaking Urdu, i must disagree, maybe you only know a few or very elite Pakistani Punjabi ppl. All of the Pakistani Punjabi people i know speak Punjabi in the house and in everyday life, yes we do all learn Urdu but thats because we have to, and also when we write Punjabi we use the same script as Urdu, with some slight modifications.

Romair#56:

I recently saw a Pakistani film, Khamosh Pani. It was better than any bollywood film I have seen this year.

``Even, Dost-mittar, who is convinced that every Muslim in the world is commanded by Islam to kill him, since he is a Hindu, seems to feel relatively safe in Pakistan........``

This is a perfect example of distorting one`s statement. We were discussing a rather abstract question on the Farzana Versey board, namely - which is easier to respect :a person or a person`s religious beliefs? And I had stated:

``For anyone who has been ``jhukk-marrowing`` on chowk for someitme, there is nothing new or suprising in your post. You and I are both aware that there are verses in the Qur`an where Allah instructs the believers to kill those who join Allah with other gods (i.e, practice shirk) for whom the worst torments are awaiting in hell anyway. Now, please tell me how anyone who believes this to be an instruction from Allah can respect a religion whose adherents do precisely that, without some spin-doctoring that they are really not idolators? Now, switch to the other side - how can any adherent of those religions respect a religon whose God says such awful things about their beliefs, regardless of what their religion says regarding all paths to God being true paths? On the other hand, it is easier to respect people because most adherents are innocent ineheritors of those faiths or beliefs.``


..And I elaborated:

``For the record: I should have added that the instructions about killing a pagan is frequently interpreted as contextual. Even the statement itself says that anyone willing to accept the supremacy of Islam and paying jaziya should be spared his life. As I have frequently stated in the past, the life of a Hindu or any other Muslim under the Muslim rule was not always bad as long as they accepted a second class status.``

Re: # 63
DM ji,
Khamosh Paani is a joint Indo-Pak venture.directed by Sabiha and the lead role is played by Kiron Kher.I have heard /read a lot about it but have not been able to get its DVD.More such joint ventures are required.Lot of work being done in theatre at least since few years and Almi Punjabi Conferences are also helping to great extent in bridging the gaps.

drlokraj:

The dvd of Khamosh Pani is now available, at least in Canada. Yes, I am aware of the Indian participation in the film and that it was banned in Pakistan. The Pakistani director also, I believe, lives in New Delhi with her non-muslim husband.

Dost-Mittar

Can you give me a website of where i can get the DVD from. Thanks. Sabiha hubby is a Sri Lankan guy, dunno his name!

hindi movies dont show sikhs in lead roles is due to beards and head-gear. 99% of the lead roles are chocolate heros, and that is why the leads are not lungi-coconut-oil keralite either. i was impressed to see an ``ordinary muslim`` role in munnabhai MBBS.. a guy (patient) who comes to mumbai for a job and is detected with some terminal desease. but in general a ``normal`` actor is ``Rohit Khanna``, a bengali has a rassogulla in each cheek, a ghati is a silly havildar (cop), pathan is a loyal friend pining for his homeland, madrassi has a ``funny`` accent and poorbi-bhayya is pan-eating-bhang-making dhobi. also, i suddenly realized that i am a real-practising sikh since i dont believe in caste-based discrimination.

Dost-mittar #63: ``This is a perfect example of distorting one`s statement. We were discussing a rather abstract question on the Farzana Versey board, namely - which is easier to respect :a person or a person`s religious beliefs? And I had stated:``

Where is your sense of humor? I am surprised you have so much difficulty differentiating between my humor and my non-humor

(Having said that, I still think that deep down inside, you are convinced that I am living in sin, since I have not made an attempt to kill you, as of yet...............)

ally#66;

I saw it at a desi video rental store. Google turned up this site: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0357283/

Romair:

Glad you clarified.

re: hindvi # 60

You are probably right. Hopefully Ghalib`s work will become popularly available in a script we can understand. There aren`t many in India who would not want to know/read of Ghalib more than they already do (which is woefully little).

Ghalib and Faiz - time hasn`t taken the shine off their names, not in India. It is frustrating to not be able to enjoy them as much as we would like to.

That said, Punjabi is the language of a very large number of people. It should not be starved of support for any reason.

#70

I have a pdf with some of Galib`s most famous work (about 30 pages) in Devnagri script with persian words explained.

If you are interested e-mail me at bongdongs@yahoo.com

Continuing with my theme that this essay is very trite and not worth a hoot, i would prefer to look at these awesome photos of ` God`s own country` Kerala and i invite you to do the same....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=207361


Definitely more interesting.India is a very diverse place.So , some look more peculiar than others.So what?.

A turbuned sikh shouting, ``no if, no but, sirf Jatt``, is kind of an oxymoron because Sikhism as no caste. So to stress `Jatt-ness` is in principle against the tenets of the religion. This is especially relevant today when Jatt Sikhs have a sense of superiority over the others and say they are `Jatt Sikh`, instead of just Sikh. Religious bodies objecting to such casteist projections of the religion is understandable in my opinion.

Ally, it is very heartening to know that you and your relatives speak Punjabi at home. My interaction with Pakistanis covers a wide cross section of society, comprising of people from different strata and cities such as Lahore, Rawalpindi, Sialkot, Gujranwale, Islamabad and so on (but I agree that it might be limited in some sense because I haven`t been to Pakistan myself). Even though they followed Punabi, none of them wanted to speak it. Infact one of them expressed surprise and said that I was the first woman he`d heard speaking in Punjabi with such fluency! Others said that they spoke it with shop keepers or their grand parents and that with their parents, and amongst people of their age group, they spoke Urdu. But this is not specific to Pakistan. Even in Indian Punjab (in the cities) some parents speak to each other in Punjabi but switch to Hindi with their kids. I maybe wrong, but it`s been my observation that this is more prevalent among Punjabi Hindus.

Hindvi, I have two different translations and interpretations of Ghalib at my place and have been fortunate enough to have read him. He is, without doubt one of the greatest poets of Urdu and the sub continent. But there are others, in my opinion, on an equal footing with him. What I had a problem with is that a generalization was made in that he is perhaps the greatest in South asia if not the world. My point is that this is very subjective and to stress with authority that his superiority is supreme, is incorrect. He might be your favourite and in your opinion the best in the world, but you cannot force that on me. I beg to differ and can name many other South Asian poets that I admire just as highly, if not more, than Ghalib. As long as it wasn`t meant in a sacrosanct way, I`m fine with what you or Romair said.

Jang, rejection of caste is just one aspect of being a Sikh.

Ghalib is available in Devnaagri. So are Faiz,Sahir,Insha,Parveen Shakir,Josh etc.Try Rajkamal Publications 8/9 DaryaGanj Delhi. I would be very surprised if Ghalib is not taught in India somewhere. I know Manto is in the curricullum in Jamia Milia Islamia,New Delhi.
kaalchakra, ``There aren`t many in India who would not want to know/read of Ghalib more than they already do (which is woefully little). `` The woefully little part is not true.

#64 lokraj ``Khamosh Paani is a joint Indo-Pak venture``


I don`t think so. Khamosh Paani was a Pakistani project with German and French collaboration. Indian distributers at one time were worrying about even being able to show the film in India. I don`t know why or how some Indians are now calling it a joint Indo-Pak venture. It was nothing of the sort.

Re: # 73

``A turbuned sikh shouting, ``no if, no but, sirf Jatt``, is kind of an oxymoron because Sikhism as no caste. ``

Simran ji,

It is heartening to note that you are well-versed with the tenets of Sikhi and share them with fellow Chowkies. But, there are ground realities which must be acknowledged. It is no secret that Dharam Paji won his election from a constituency which had Jat majority. He is a popular actor and might have romped home even from some other constituency, but the party he represented did not take a chance. The party I`m talking about ostensibly supports end of casteism. Demands of practicality dictate such decisions and not some ersatz concept like `pillars of religion`. The producer of the movie also tried to take advantage of the prevalent `sense of superiority` amongst Jat Sikhs, as you pointed in your post.

Couple of years back, we used to go to a Dhaba for lunch. The proprietor was a turbaned Sikh. Having got bored of eating the same vegetables and tandoori rotis, we asked him for Egg Bhurji. The man refused to serve anything `non-veg` saying, ``Saab ji, Hum Pundit Hain, meat, anda nahin khate``; even my Kannadiga friend who has never been North of Vindhyas couldn`t suppress his smile of incredulity. On being probed, he told us that he is Kashmiri Pundit and even though they have converted to Sikhi, they still don`t eat meat. I don`t know whether he pulled a fast one :-)

Simran ji

You say:-
`A turbuned sikh shouting, ``no if, no but, sirf Jatt``, is kind of an oxymoron because Sikhism as no caste`

No it does not convey what you are stating. Had it been `no if no but sikh sirf jatt` then your conclusion would have been correct.

For that matter why it is okay to have public religious identity but wrong to have ethnic racial identity? I am sure makers of this movie were not scrutinising any religious scriptures to see if this is right or wrong because they had no intention to injure the sentiments of any community. For them they were making a simple out and out comedy.

As all of us know in the practical world casteism among followers of Sikhism is widely prevalent and here I am only talking about ground realities and not what is prescribed, so why always look for an ideal situations in movies which in any case are a combination of facts in a make believe world.

The tragedy in the world at present is that every ideology, every philosophy is becoming regressive. We in this part of the world has learnt one great thing from followers of Islam and that is perpetually being sensitive to everything pertaining to religion. Shiv sena and Bajrang Dal is always up in arms on every real and imaginary injury to their senstivities. And now sikh religious bodies are having problems with a film title even when title has not been used in a derogatory or negative manner. In case there is some serious problems then one can always raise this issue in a civilised manner so that such acts are not repeated. Compelling makers of the movie who happen to be sikhs to withdraw this movie or going on rampage as shiv sena does is just not acceptable to common man on the street.

All of us should simply think about good old days when we could laugh at ourselves and also others without bothering too much about their senstivities and everyone was expected to take humour in the right spirit.

Regards

rahulmal#76

That dhaba-wallah did pull a fast one on you because Kashmiri Pandits are, in general, voracious meat eaters. It could be that he was baptised as an amrit-dhari sikh who generally do not eat meat. Until 2-3 generations ago, most sikhs, especially khatris refrained from eating meat, but as far as I know there is nothing in Guru Granth Sahib on this issue. There is one verse which advises against eating food which is potentially harmful to body or mind (jis khaaDyan tan peediye, man mein pade vikaar) and some people might interpret it as an advice against eating Tamsik food. As a kid, I remember that we called meat Maa-Pershad, which I believe might be derived for Maha Prasad or Mother Durga`s Prasad.

Bengalis still serve meat during Durga Pooja but non-vegetarian food is never served in the gurudwara. Bhindarnwale`s military advisor, Shahbeg Singh, was very fond of meat and, while holed up in the Golden Temple, tried to convince Bhindranwale that it was alright for a religious sikh to eat meat. He did not succeed.

Re: # 78

DMji,

Who are Amrit-Dhaari Sikhs? The fellow I`m talking about always wears a white turban (don`t know whether it is relevant). He REALLY doesn not serve non-veg, though he may have taken me for a ride on the Kashmiri part.

You are right on the maansahaari bent of Kashmiri Pandits, I know some :-)

I thought Taamsik-Saatvik concept is only applicable for Vaishnavs. Aren`t Bengalis and Punjabis Shakts (Shakti-poojak)?

Jat superiority is myth spread by Jats. Jats were one step above shudras historically; they thronged in large number to sikhism, and their status got elevated. ``Aseen Jutt hunay aa`` is an empty boast these days, nothing more.

Kashmiri Pandits do eat a lot of meat. There are some who abstain.

Amritdhari is one who has taken amrit. They do not eat meat, or take intoxicants.....some of them think marijuana, bhang. etc. are NOT intoxicants. They are supposed also to cook in iron utensils....not necessarily in compliance with sikh teachings and tennets.

#80 Kaurasach ``Jat superiority is myth spread by Jats. Jats were one step above shudras historically; they thronged in large number to sikhism, and their status got elevated. ``Aseen Jutt hunay aa`` is an empty boast these days, nothing more. ``

You`ve told this about...ummm....a million times now. Do you have some kind of inferiority complex to Jatts or something? You`re not somekind of Tarkhan or a Kalal low-caste riff-raff with serious self-esteem issues are you? j/k

If Sikhism elevated the status of Jatts from where and how did Chaudhry Anwar Ghumman, Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nawab Amanullah Khan Sial, Chaudhry Hammad Nasir Chattha and MANY other Jatt Sardars in West Punjab get their 10s of thousands of acres? Was it a gift from the Khalsa. I doubt it somehow.

Neither am I a tarkhan nor anyone else (it matters nothing to me). My forefathers were landlords and farmers.

I am going to say this as many times as these PHukras and empty balloons are knocked off their imaginary horses.

here are a few quotes from past historical and reputed sources....

``......During the troubled times that followed the breakup of the Gupta Empire, many foreign races such as the Huns, the Gurjaras, etc. settled in the Punjab and Rajputana and became Hinduised in course of time. The upper ranks of these foreigners, whose main occupation was war, came to be known as Rajputs, while the humbler folks ranked low in social status and developed into inferior castes such as Gurjaras, Jats and others. As we have already seen .......``

``............Whatever be the later-day notions about the superiority of the Jat “quom”, Jats were stigmatised by the higher castes. The Brahmins treated the Jats as Shudras and denied them the right to wear the sacred thread. The Jats were largely free from the Brahminical orthodoxy and caste rigidity...............``

READ YOURSELF. I assume you can GOOGLE

It is my mission to let the hot air out of EVERY PHUKRA - INCLUDING JATS .


``...............Conjectures and surmises to prop up preconceived notions constitute this brand of history. As a consequence, there is a lot of myth making in the name of Jat history. Some make hilarious reading. For instance, a theory has been propounded in all seriousness that the Jats are ancient rulers who once held sway all over the world and their descendants are found in all important races and the communities even today.
................
``