The Book is also Just a Book

Re # 230

If these VHPites and Bajrang Dalis are so worked up and there to undo the wrongs of the
past and prevent any further wrongs, I say go to Kashmir and populate that state with
Hindu population. Go take you family, set up houses, shops, temples there.
Defend your life and family with lathis, guns, night watches, whatever it takes.
Why destroy masjids however unused, dialapidated? Why kill unarmed muslims?
Anyway you are breaking law, break article 360.
Have guts like Gandhiji had, to give up all the comforts of life and live on one piece of cloth.
Go give some sacrifices for your cause if it is that dear to you.

I bet none of these warriors will do that. They will roar only in the comfort of their numbers.

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Vertex, #195 –

In reply to my theory (#191), you say sarcastically, “But what would Christians do if their country was occupied by Muslims, and Muslims were going about flushing bibles and crucifixes down the toilet, I wonder? Scratch that. What would Christians do if Muslims were occupying their country? Showing their other cheek?”

If the Renaissance never occurred in Christianity (read the “West”), and the role was reversed, ie, it’s the Islamic Civilization that went through Renaissance and the Enlightenment, then, yes, it would have been the Muslims hunting for Franklin Grahams and Jerry Falwells in caves for terrorism, and Ann Coulter would be their Farhat Hashmi.

However, if both Christian and Islamic Civilizations were at par, at the same stage of modernization, liberty, tolerance and people rule, it would be a lot different world than what we are witnessing today.

#232
``As a Muslim, you could take pride in him for creating the only nation in the name of Islam/Muslims, but that dubious claim is also challenged by people like Rafique Zakaria at the one end and Maulanas Azad and Maudoodi at the other.``

This could be misread. These people did not challenge the claim that he created Pakistan but whether it was good for Indian Muslims.

echoboom#213

There are some apparent inconsistencies in your thinking.

First re. Jinnah and Nehru. You may have some justification in claiming Jinnah to be a proud Muslim (``Mohammedan`` to be correct); after all, he did go to a Madrassa and did occasionally mention the qur`an and the Prophet. But he was not even ``Aadha Mussalmaan`` according to Ghalib`s definition, and did not even bother to raise his own daughter to be a Muslim (nothing wrong in not converting his wife, that`s quite permissible as you know!). As a Muslim, you could take pride in him for creating the only nation in the name of Islam/Muslims, but that dubious claim is also challenged by people like Rafique Zakaria at the one end and Maulanas Azad and Maudoodi at the other.

But it`s in your pride in Nehru which is totally incomprehensible. He was even more of a brown saheb than hamidm (who, after all, eats Pakistani food, socialises with Pakistanis, can quote quran chapter and verse and sent his daughters to Maulvis for education). Nehru never went to a pathshaala, gurukul or Madrassa - places of true education, according to you. He was anything but a proud Hindu, never quoted anything from a Hindu religious book, perhaps could not even read hindi, sanskrit, urdu or farsi and be considered truly educated, according to you. Whatever he knew of Indian history, he learnt from Western sources. He lived like the gora saheb, with western food and pet dogs. For socialising, he felt more comfortable in the company of goras than Indians, especially of the gurukul variety, whom he hated with a vengeance. He spoke unceasingly of the Western concepts like democracy, secularism and socialism. He would be a prime candidate to be classified ``kanjjar`` by you. As I said, your only qualification for not falling in that class seems to be that one shouldn`t be a ``gora-goo-chaater`` which neither Nehru nor Jinnah was.

But the bigger disconnect seems to be in your thinking re. India and Pakistan. You say that Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims can be the best of friends (btw what does the quran say about befriending kafirs?) but India and Pakistan must remain enemies, indeed, you seem to relish the thought of these two nuclear neighbours to be permanent enemies. You claim that `we` had no problem living together until the British came to India. Now the British are gone, so why can`t we heal the wounds of the partition and live like friends and neighbours? Strangely, you and hamidm think alike on this issue but he, at least, is consistent - he does not think that the meat-khor Pakistani and heeng-smelling, dal-khor Hindus can be friends even as individuals.

Are your sure that your Hindu genes are not acting up? To me, you seem to be following the message of the Bhagvad Gita that it is your Dharma as a Muslim to hate the Hindus even if you love them as friends.:-)

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Re: # 221
True - and thankfully - the Bajrang Dalis and the VHP-ites were kept under control by the Vajapayee group - there is no general communalistic fever among the Hindus of India. Thus they still measure upto the Hindu ideals.
Though such outbursts - if they remain so - cannot be ruled out as long as the Wahaabi element controls Islamic adherents, it is important to keep the Bajrngis and the revivalist elements among the Hindus. Only then can we ever hope to preserve the integrity of India.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT THE ISLAMIC DESECRATION OF OTHER FAITHS BY ISLAM`s RADICAL WING HAS TO BE NIPPED IN THE BUD.

Re: # 201
I agree.

1. Hindutvas trying to convince one another that Islam is an evil religion.

2. Echoboom (one-of-a-kind) trying to convince everyone that anyone who does not curse the West is a baa-baa-black sheep.

Bor-r-r-r-r-ing

PS: Greetings HP. ;-)

#219 by HP on May 26, 2005 11:39pm PT

Still trying to pretend you have a clue?



p.s. Pakistan has been a miserable failure at getting even those ``low level`` programming jobs....pakiland`s projected exports are at the <50 million level for 2005....That`s one days work for the low level programmers in India....

#215 by echoboom on May 26, 2005 7:13pm PT


Muslim Ummah, all over the world, united in protesting the atrocities of US thhUGGs.


Watching people fuming with impotent rage is only funny for some time....then it gets pathetic and a waste in bandwidth....

Re: # 221:

So what is that something else going on if not to humiliate the Indian Muslim identity? And please don`t get into the `response to Mandal` argument, for the NDA govt. walked that same road when it came to power. The anti-Muslim stand persists among this group. As re. not using the Taj to humiliate, for pete`s sake, it is our showpiece and major revenue earner from tourism.

Btw, there were reports that Ayodhya was going to be marketed as a tourist attraction...

- - -

With due respect for Hamidm and his wit, I find it amusing when people talk about how he can being about a reform in Islam. (Something, he might himself find too much of a strain anyway.) Even if he were to write a book, the impact would be limited to the already `converted`. Much as Irshad Manji`s influence is restricted to a few Canadian Muslims with autographed copies who watch her on telly and a few women who lust for her...reform of a society cannot happen by those sitting away from the `ailing` societies.

Reform can happen only when large groups of people in such societies decide to wake up, and think at least partially together.

Therefore, for those who think that the Farzanas are ``in between`` must realise it is we who live amongst large segments of our community -- whatever be our position regarding the professed religion -- who can at least participate in the change, if not initiate it.

Re: # 221:

So what is that something else going on if not to humiliate the Indian Muslim identity? And please don`t get into the `response to Mandal` argument, for the NDA govt. walked that same road when it came to power. The anti-Muslim stand persists among this group. As re. not using the Taj to humiliate, for pete`s sake, it is our showpiece and major revenue earner from tourism.

Btw, there were reports that Ayodhya was going to be marketed as a tourist attraction...

- - -

With due respect for Hamidm and his wit, I find it amusing when people talk about how he can being about a reform in Islam. (Something, he might himself find too much of a strain anyway.) Even if he were to write a book, the impact would be limited to the already `converted`. Much as Irshad Manji`s influence is restricted to a few Canadian Muslims with autographed copies who watch her on telly and a few women who lust for her...reform of a society cannot happen by those sitting away from the `ailing` societies.

Reform can happen only when large groups of people in such societies decide to wake up, and think at least partially together.

Therefore, for those who thonk that the Farzanas are ``in between`` must realise it is we who live amongst large segments of our community -- whatever be our position regarding the professed religion -- who can at least participate in the change, if not initiate it.

#203 by vertex

[LOL...sure, whatever. As we all know, such people are pacifists, right? Pacifists with huge-ass armies.]

LOL...sure, whatever. And as we all know, all the dead in the wars between Eastern countries put together wouldn`t amount to the number of dead in the Iran-Iraq war alone.

#214 by AlephNull

Excellent post.

Inquirer, HP, Dost-Mittar

I agree that HP`s responses are very cogently argued (unless he is in a mood to punish :)).

But the argument that Babri Masjid episode was meant to humiliate Muslims seems unsatisfactory. I will explain why.

Had the Hindu purpose been to humiliate Muslims, they would choose structures more central to Indian Muslims` history and identity. The greater the Hindu resolve to humiliate Muslims, the more key and central would be the Islamic objects of Hindus` attacks.

Had the drive been for the humiliation of Muslims, one would hear of widespread and popular calls for destruction of large numbers of Islamic structures. Again, the greater the resolve, the more numerous would be the objects of hindu attack.

As a tactic for humiliating Muslims, the long-standing (to an external eye, even obsessive) Hindu focus on Babri Mosque is completely inadequate.

And at least Indians would know that there are no popular movements in India, aiming to destroy the Jama Masjid, or bring down the Taj Mahal. Neither are mosques being razed to ground everywhere.

So there is something else going on here.