The Book is also Just a Book

Re: #326 by Mantolives


[You need to get a life and read what I`ve written above.... ]

I did. A bad attempt at obfuscation.


[Please inform me how Islam is different from any other religion given the objections that you`ve raised... ]


We will talk about whether and/or how Islam compares to other world religions, if you wish.

HOWEVER we will discuss that AFTER we have finished discussing the CENTRAL ISSUE here (see my post #331 for the CENTRAL ISSUE).


[The problem comes down to the Witchdoctors.]

We shall discuss witchdoctors AFTER the CENTRAL ISSUE has been discussed to conclusion.



I AM NOT BUDGING FROM THIS POINT UNTIL YOU GUYS ANSWER THIS.

Re: #328 by vertex


[When someone is being beat to a pulp, do they normally have such strong affection to their abusers? That is the point. Abuse is defined by *harm* done, and in this case I am hard pressed to find evidence of harm. That`s why the comparisons to incest/battery is simply misplaced.

I`m not interested in advocating child marriages, nor even defending them. In my cultural background, and in my particular social setup they`re frowned upon. I`m a big believer in urbanization, education, and all the stuff that goes with it so I actually oppose child marriages as not very conducive to progress.

However this specific case of alleged child-marriage is hardly cause for concern to me, as the ``victim`s`` attitude towards the alleged ``abuser`` is one of reverence and unquestioning love that by far outstrips mine. Call that whatever, but only the dishonest would call it ``abuse``. ]


Whether the victim of pedophilia develops feelings for the pedophile is an issue we can go into about AFTER THE MAIN POINT HAS BEEN ANSWERED.



[Such attitudes are very modern...can we at least be honest with that?]


Yes, we can be honest.

What is modern is the ENFORCEMENT and PUBLIC CONDEMNATION by society for acts such as this.

Just because society did not condemn it at that time it DOES NOT MAKE IT AN EXEMPLARY BEHAVIOR for that age.

And this guy is supposed to be an example for everybody for all ages!


BUT HERE IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE YOU HAVE BEEN SKILLFULLY AVOIDING:

IT IS OBSCENE, PERVERTED, AND PEDOPHILIC FOR A 50-YEAR OLD MAN TO BE SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO A 6-YEAR-OLD LITTLE GIRL.

WHETHER SOCIETY HAS LAWS AGAINST IT OR NOT.



KINDLY ADDRESS THIS CENTRAL ISSUE

Flushing Quran is not as bad as mistreating women, practising misogyny, and keeping little girls down.

Vertex,

Is it not true that Muslims believe that the actions and life of the Prophet are an ideal example of how Man should live ? In this context his marriage to Aisha would appear to condone child marriages, as any muslim could justify the practice as simply following the actions of the Prophet.

If you believe that this was justified in 7th century Arabia but is incompatible in todays world, then you are implying that the message of the Qur`an & the Hadiths need to be interpreted in the light of modern sensibilities and is therefore not applicable for all times in its original form.

327,

shishapa,

When someone is being beat to a pulp, do they normally have such strong affection to their abusers? That is the point. Abuse is defined by *harm* done, and in this case I am hard pressed to find evidence of harm. That`s why the comparisons to incest/battery is simply misplaced.

I`m not interested in advocating child marriages, nor even defending them. In my cultural background, and in my particular social setup they`re frowned upon. I`m a big believer in urbanization, education, and all the stuff that goes with it so I actually oppose child marriages as not very conducive to progress.

However this specific case of alleged child-marriage is hardly cause for concern to me, as the ``victim`s`` attitude towards the alleged ``abuser`` is one of reverence and unquestioning love that by far outstrips mine. Call that whatever, but only the dishonest would call it ``abuse``.

``It is too big a gamble for a sane parent to play with your such a young child`s life, no matter which time and age and which geographic location.``

Such attitudes are very modern...can we at least be honest with that?

Re # 325

``how come she turned out a-okay, without even a hint of resentment? ``

I am not arguing facts here, but I think this logic is wrong. She turning out a-okay is
hindsight.

If someone beats to pulp their young helpless son or daughter now, can someone else say/predict, it is OK, he/she is going to turn out a-okay?

What I am saying is that, you just do not do such a thing just by wishing/hoping for the best in normal circumstances. It is too big a gamble for a sane parent to play with your such a young child`s life, no matter which time and age and which geographic location.

Re: # 324

You need to get a life and read what I`ve written above....

Please inform me how Islam is different from any other religion given the objections that you`ve raised...

The problem comes down to the Witchdoctors.

Ajeya,

LOL, come down...I could care less to `justify` anything...I don`t even know if the age is accurate. It`s one thing to advocate something, it`s another to villify it and use it to dehumanize others (which is what you are doing, btw)....not that it matters, cause I really don`t respect your opinion. But your spazing out aside, if you have a shred of honesty you`d answer why if it`s so darn awful...how come she turned out a-okay, without even a hint of resentment?


``Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russians, Chinese – ALL educated people think like this about muslims – everybody.``

a) This is deomnstrably false
b) So what? I can`t let other peoples hate drive me.

Re: #321, 322, 323

Here come the obfuscaters.

Re: # 321

Well maybe not Mahatmas who are after all marginal... but the point stands...

``It makes no sense. Religion for the Islamists is a political entity; the Quran is incidental to it.``
This line sums up everything and is true about religeon in general and will continue to remain that way till people start following logic and rationalism rather than magical beliefs which religeon instills into their minds and break the SHACKLES described by Manto in #321.

Dear Farzana,

A BRILLIANT article as usual... touching the nerves of those who live in symbolism.

Quran`s compilation defeated the purpose of the Quran... it merely replaced a old dogma with a new one. It is often forgotten that Muhammad came from the Hanif tradition which was the rationalist tradition of the time ... which rejected spiritual mumbo jumbo and idolatrous worship... the reigning dogma of the time. I suppose an equivalent of the Holy Prophet in today`s time would be a refusenik... whether Muslim, Hindu, or Christian...

But Farzana real humanity is in SHACKLES... and the keys are with the Mahatmas, Maulanas, Pirs, Fakirs, Pandits, Sanyasis, Padres and Rabbis.... these WITCHDOCTORS have spoilt the people...

People like you are a breath of fresh air.

#309 by vertex

[....you must question then how ``abusive`` such a relationship was if it produced such a powerful personality.]

Does the fact that Anais Nin became a highly celebrated writer justify what her father did?

Romair #299

`` All I can say is you need to do quite a bit more research on Islam, if you want to form solid views about it. Neem hakim, khatra-e-jaan, neem mullah khatra-e-iman. You and Urstruly and both neem mullahs from opposite directions, when it comes to Islam. And that makes both of you dangerous, since there maybe other individuals who listen to what you are saying.................You, of all people, should be extremely sensitive about this, considering the recent Hindu-Muslim violence and the rise of BJP in your country of birth......I can well imagine, people getting violent if they are told that Muslims are, by their religion, commanded to kill them..........Which is what you seem to be stating again and again.......Seriously speaking, if I didn`t know you better, I would have confused you for a spokesperson for the BJP...........``

Explain to me why the BJP is any different from the Muslim League. I won`t even talk about the likes of the MMA.

`` Shariah is a relative term. There is, in fact, no set Shariah in Islam. For the simple reason that Islam does not recognize the concept of clergies. Everyone is a Brahmin and a Pope in Islam. No one person or group`s Shariah is binding on anyone else. There is no one, who can instruct me to do something, in a binding manner, when it comes to Islam. Neither can I instruct anyone to do as I want them to do, in Islam. ``

One of the common demands of all Islamic groups is the imposition of Shariah or Muslim religious laws. If it is relative term you are calling the demands of those Islamic groups unreasonable. People with your position on Islamic law have been declared heretics and persecuted. So much for tolerance.

`` This right and ability to analyse a whole religion, just on my own, sitting in the comforts of my study room, with no binding reliance on any, ``aalim`` or any, ``religious`` expert, is an extremely liberating experience. There is no religious beauracracy between me and my God. This is why the clergy, historically, has never had the same hold on power in Islam, as it has had in various other religions....... ``

There is a big difference between theory and practice.

`` This, and its concept of egalatarianism is what has always attracted me to Islam. Bilal, a black slave became the Governor of Syria (which is a country). This was more than a thousand years before a Black man would become a mayor of evan a city in the USA..........If today, say, you became a Muslim, tomorrow you could go to the Kaaba and lead the prayers......... ``

Blacks never step foot on US soil until the mid-1650s. That is a full 700 years after your Black Syrian governor. You are comparing a third rate country Syria that has no impact upon World history with a country that has been dominant in the twentieth century.

`` Believe me, all of this is very liberating, for people who do believe in the concept of God and the concept of religion. Does this mean that Islam is some sort of perfection, which everyone should adopt. No. If for no other reason, because it is so abstract that it can have many variations. But, it also does not mean that it is what you keep trying to portray it to be............ ``

It also means it can mean thousand things to thousand different people. Unfortunately an ideal legal system do not work that way. We would like one punishment for one set of crimes.

`` If you don`t want to follow Islam, don`t. That is your choice. But you have no right to badmouth it (or badmouth any religion) without first getting your facts straight...........``

If you cannnot take any criticism you call it ``badmouthing``. If you cannot take the heat take a hike !!!

dost-mittar #313

`` Please speak for yourself, not for the whole world. If you haven`t come across muslims you didn`t like, it`s your problem, not theirs. It`s your right to like or hate islam, but you have no right to speak for other Hindus or Indians, let alone Russians, Europeans, etc. ``

I would not generalize. But there are anti-Muslim sentiments among sections of Indian Hindus, Israeli Jews, Russians, West Europeans, Americans and some East Asian states.

echoboom #279

``No matter how much unpalatable it would seem to you & no matter how much you are hoodwinked by the liberal/socialist/communist/humanist westernised-scum here, please understand that the more clear you/we are about this truth, the more we can live in peace & harmony--separate but together.``

What is wrong with a communist ? China would not be where it is without the Chinese communist party. Vietnamese communists liberated their country. They beat the Americans fair and square.

It took a socialist Labor Party to hand over power to India and Pakistani leaders in 1947. They acted in a more dignified manner than the Pakistani elite who have repeatedly refused to honor the results of the democratic process.