The Book is also Just a Book

Vertex

The afgan security forces are supporting re-buiding of a nation, providing security for road-bulding, hospital-building and other crews. They are providing security for semblence of a govt. and at this point the best bet for improving lives of people in theregion and its neighborhood. Note that hundreds or thousands have gone back from pakistan to afganistan under this bare-bones security. So, yes an article about these forces will be kinda boring.

Farzana,

``Hmmm, a swipe??``

Nope, not at you. The comment was aimed at those who started down the ``religion is bad, see what it causes people to do`` road.

But the question I`ve asked (why the shift in focus from who is doing the desecration and why to the rather tame protests - and why so mum on the role of the Afghan security forces in the whole thing?) is for any and all to answer.

As for the herd mentality in following govts. in Muslim societies, I`d say it`s more than that...it`s a down right cynicism that anything else would be exactly the same, or even worse.

Cayenne,
The Holy Quran cannot be desecrated. Just because certain people have captured some wind in their intestines does not mean they have defiled the hurricane or tornado. :)
Salim

Echoboom #108,
You are so right when it comes to comparing Western thought to our self-inflicted misery. I just want our people to come to their senses, get a hold of their emotions, and behave in a rational manner, consistent with their true religious values and not just the selfish agenda set by a few rabid drum beaters. I think we agree. How are you doing my friend?
Salim

Farzana #112, {``Salim, is this your idea of a bachelor party?! Khush raho...let us see if you will still walk around these parts during the baby-shower... ``}

Farzana,
Thanks for your kind wishes. Yes, anytime you write there is a party atmosphere. You just do that to people. Thanks for a truly timely and well-presented essay. As for the baby shower, it is my sincere desire to fill the world with little Rajputs. :)
Salim

Re: # 118
Provide reference. How do WE know it is not a diversionary statement?

The issue is way lot more simpler than you folks are trying to make it into. Let’s for a moment assume that Quran was flushed down a toilet by a non-Muslim. 16 Muslims are killed in protests (kinda kool). Some while ago, an Afghan truck was captured in Pakistan loaded with Hollow Copies of Quran stuffed with Heroin. There were no protests for desecration of the Quran (for stuffing it with drugs) and there were no deaths. Why is that?

I would rather someone flushed Quran down the toilet than stuffing it with drugs (that kill people).

I think the impotent Mullah is at his best showing his hypocrisy and true colors. May Urstruly can shed some light on it.

Re: # 113
Kaun table waale?

Re: # 112
You misunderstood my comments about the temporal relationship between Mullah brigade, moderate Muslims and non-Muslims referred to by me. I only wanted to indicate that it is important not to divert the attention to Hindu-Muslim hurling of insults to each other.

The important issue at hand is the interaction between moderates and the brigade. And if there could be a coherent discussion between them then non-Muslims can be the beneficiaries because then they could see that the brigade and Wahaabiis are not the only shade of opinion that exists in Muslim world.

Re: # 112 FV

``Urstruly (#4): This is not about atheism and religion, but the misconstrued concept of religiosity and desecration. Atheism in primarily religious societies is about managing contradictions. Unless you are fanatical about espousing a no-god scenario (and I am not fanatical), then you may be as sensitive to the essence of one or several religions. ``


Of course, it is not only about atheism and religion but also about the rightful concepts of religiosity and desecration. You must realize the pitfall of your own argument; all you are saying is that the religions teach and enforce human dignity, self respect, and respect for the surrounding whereas atheism and the so-called rationality teach and promote disrespect, indignity, and self-loathing indifference towards your fellow human being in the name of rationality. I challenge you that I can write here one sentence to test your rationality and even if you somehow manage to pretend that you have ignored it, you will remember it for the rest of your life. Everyday I see the monkey dance of the so called rational people at this website at echoboom`s posts. Five years ago, just for once I called Hindus the ``penis-worshipers`` and they haven`t forgiven me to this day, even though they pretend to be the biggest promoter of rationality on this website.

The underlying message is that the main ingredient that binds a peaceful cohesive culture is the mutual respect and decency. The indecency and disrespect only creates a society of baboons where every one screams to prove his rationality-just as the western propaganda machinery does - or simply embark on callous murder and torture of human beings and desecration of human ideals just as Americans are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gitmo and elsewhere claiming that it is in the name of freedom and higher human ideals.

Re: # 112

Dear Farzana,

I object you calling your self Pakeezah. Sau choohay kha ke billi haj ko challi.

I was just trying to take micki out of Mr Echoboom when I was requested Chowk Moderator to enlighten us with his thoughts even if he is abusive.

Birju is dead

This discussion has gone way ahead and beyond the scope of the article, while retaining the kernel. Thank you all for it. And for the kind and not-so-kind comments. And for once forgetting about the coffee I imbibe…

A few points:

Urstruly (#4): This is not about atheism and religion, but the misconstrued concept of religiosity and desecration. Atheism in primarily religious societies is about managing contradictions. Unless you are fanatical about espousing a no-god scenario (and I am not fanatical), then you may be as sensitive to the essence of one or several religions.

PS: You don’t ever seem to come up with my being an atheist when I am routinely called an Islamist-jihadi.
- - -
HP (#9): That last bit I did not see as a conspiracy theory. It has been proven often enough that Islamic societies are easy game for the West – this is not the first time. Even re. this incident, while the US has been talking about a “black eye” for its PR, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said the protests are by those who are against his country’s alliance with the US.

However, the primary aim of this article is not about “Westernised thugs”. My tangential point here is, “How many Islamic nations put their wealth and manpower to fight the Western forces against their aggression towards their own? Where is the Islamic revivalism one hears about? …where is the unified, self-respecting, self-sufficient Islam?”

Unlike some people here, I do not believe that unless you blow hot against something you become a slave of that thing. I do believe that sagacity and showing complete disdain would send out a stronger message. What is the purpose of following the pattern that the West has got used to, and ensnared many into?
- - -
Aisha (#38): [Islam that was marked by an anti-idoleterous ideology is now just that. I think the Quran was descecrated the day it was preserved in a book, not for study but for protection, not for critique but for the ``feel good factor.``]

Spot-on.
- - -
Naqshbandi (#44): [If you don`t feel anything that says more about the state of your own imaan than anything else!]

Absolutely. In fact I said so in the article, “Desecration is when you allow yourself the torpor for your core to be tarnished. And if you are a true believer, then the Quran – or any ideology that enlightens you -- ought to have seeped into your soul. Save that.”
- - -
Feroz (#53): There have been a few responses to your post already that have dealt with what I might have elaborated on. Let us discuss a few things…

[Every religion has an element of irrationality in it and every religion has an ideal]

Often irrationality becomes the ideal, for the simple reason that faith by its very nature cannot be rationalised. Belief systems can be. The conflict arises when there is an emotional reaction to practical injunctions.

You talk about symbols. The Quran talks about politics, law, society, relationships besides religion…so what aspect of the symbolism is one adhering to or deflecting from? The current event is to a large extent political, therefore must the symbolism attached to it be religious? Then does it not transform into a ritual, as much “performance” as NOT dancing to the tune of the West that seems to worry a lot of people?

I did use what might appear to be facile examples in the beginning to emphasise the very nature of desecration and its myriad interpretations. As I said, the Quran is an individual symbol; at the social level it is a value system. And a whole society cannot react emotionally to a value system in ONE voice.
- - -
Charlie (#60): [If americans are burning qurans and they know that it is something sacred for muslims, it means that they are trying to provoke them. Is it ethical to provoke a group by hitting its sensitive issues...]

Why must one expect mind-colonisers to not provoke? Why are you looking for ethics here? Why is it then that the Muslim world does not stay united when it comes to such a potent symbol? Why are we not provoked sufficiently when our people are debased and humanity is desecrated?
- - -
dost-mittarji (#72): [What other purpose is served by flushing down some paper and ink down the toilet?]

If it is mere paper and ink, then why protest against it?

[You might as well say that Indian Muslims should not have been hurt after the demolition of the Babri Masjid because it was merely an ``unused structure``, as was claimed by some.]

I deliberately avoided the Babri argument in the piece, but now we can get to that…The Quran is The Book, supposedly for all Muslims, who interpret it in the manner they deem fit. But there are several million copies being printed, in various sizes, languages, formats. It is personal.

The Babri Masjid was truly of no value at one point in time. After the rath yatra and the demolition it became a symbol for Muslims in India, not for Islam. It stood for minorityism and identity. Islam was not threatened (no religion can be, which is my point), but Indian Muslims were. The real wounds came from the riots that followed, which is why the Muslims even while still stinging from that episode are still prepared for a court verdict re. that site.
- - -
Vertex (#54, 80):

Obviously it is governments in Islamic societies and not the common people who create problems, but why do people follow the herd mentality? (Incidentally, democracies – in the West too – suffer from this malaise.)

[I mean, to me it seems like people are misusing this story to produce righteous diatribes, and we see this not only from the usual suspects (Manji, Tom Friedman), but even some resident chowkies ... :-)]

Hmmm, a swipe?? If it is, then this is no righteous diatribe. Self-questioning never is. The fact that one of the earlier respondents used the names of Mullah Omar and me together should reveal that the righteousness is a bit off-key :)
- - -
Nauman (#92): In a rather long article I used two quotes by Daniel Pipes and neither is offensive to Islam. I found his comment on Islamic democracy and socialism interesting.
- - -
Harimau (#102):

[What next?
``The Prophet is also just a man?``]

Yup. (Thanks Sajal…)

[``Ramzan is also another 30-day weight loss plan?``]

Depends on what you do after dusk…gorge and work up some sweat or go off to sleep.

[I shall await those with bated breath.]

Hate to keep you waiting. So…

Zakaat is also an excuse for a new wardrobe.
Namaaz is also a fine meditation and exercise regimen.
The ghusal is a good way to clean up untended parts of your body (e.g.behind the ears).
The Haj is also the only time for Muslims of all nationalities to come together dressed up as senators of the old Roman Empire.

You get the drift? Now you may exhale…

- - -

Inquirerji:
Aap ko kya moderates or Mullahs ki ladai se mazaa aa raha hai? Jaise Ana ne kahaa, yeh mud`aa sab ke liye mahatvapurna hai. Aur waise khud ke astitva se baghaavat karna tau aur bhi mushkil hota hai!
- - -
#109 by arstoo:

[Dear Chowk Moderator

Please enlighten us what Mr Echoboom is trying to say. I does`nt mind even if he is abusive.]

One is not aware of the content that is being filtered out, although Chowk staff did object to certain cut-paste material. Re. abusive stuff, if indeed it is that, you doesn`t mind, but I does. By anyone. (I had no idea people got enlightened by abuses...)

Sincerely,
Pakeezah :)
- - -

Kardesh:

Salim, is this your idea of a bachelor party?! Khush raho...let us see if you will still walk around these parts during the baby-shower...

This discussion has gone way ahead and beyond the scope of the article, while retaining the kernel. Thank you all for it. And for the kind and not-so-kind comments. And for once forgetting about the coffee I imbibe…

A few points:

Urstruly (#4): This is not about atheism and religion, but the misconstrued concept of religiosity and desecration. Atheism in primarily religious societies is about managing contradictions. Unless you are fanatical about espousing a no-god scenario (and I am not fanatical), then you may be as sensitive to the essence of one or several religions.

PS: You don’t ever seem to come up with my being an atheist when I am routinely called an Islamist-jihadi.
- - -
HP (#9): That last bit I did not see as a conspiracy theory. It has been proven often enough that Islamic societies are easy game for the West – this is not the first time. Even re. this incident, while the US has been talking about a “black eye” for its PR, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said the protests are by those who are against his country’s alliance with the US.

However, the primary aim of this article is not about “Westernised thugs”. My tangential point here is, “How many Islamic nations put their wealth and manpower to fight the Western forces against their aggression towards their own? Where is the Islamic revivalism one hears about? …where is the unified, self-respecting, self-sufficient Islam?”

Unlike some people here, I do not believe that unless you blow hot against something you become a slave of that thing. I do believe that sagacity and showing complete disdain would send out a stronger message. What is the purpose of following the pattern that the West has got used to, and ensnared many into?
- - -
Aisha (#38): [Islam that was marked by an anti-idoleterous ideology is now just that. I think the Quran was descecrated the day it was preserved in a book, not for study but for protection, not for critique but for the ``feel good factor.``]

Spot-on.
- - -
Naqshbandi (#44): [If you don`t feel anything that says more about the state of your own imaan than anything else!]

Absolutely. In fact I said so in the article, “Desecration is when you allow yourself the torpor for your core to be tarnished. And if you are a true believer, then the Quran – or any ideology that enlightens you -- ought to have seeped into your soul. Save that.”
- - -
Feroz (#53): There have been a few responses to your post already that have dealt with what I might have elaborated on. Let us discuss a few things…

[Every religion has an element of irrationality in it and every religion has an ideal]

Often irrationality becomes the ideal, for the simple reason that faith by its very nature cannot be rationalised. Belief systems can be. The conflict arises when there is an emotional reaction to practical injunctions.

You talk about symbols. The Quran talks about politics, law, society, relationships besides religion…so what aspect of the symbolism is one adhering to or deflecting from? The current event is to a large extent political, therefore must the symbolism attached to it be religious? Then does it not transform into a ritual, as much “performance” as NOT dancing to the tune of the West that seems to worry a lot of people?

I did use what might appear to be facile examples in the beginning to emphasise the very nature of desecration and its myriad interpretations. As I said, the Quran is an individual symbol; at the social level it is a value system. And a whole society cannot react emotionally to a value system in ONE voice.
- - -
Charlie (#60): [If americans are burning qurans and they know that it is something sacred for muslims, it means that they are trying to provoke them. Is it ethical to provoke a group by hitting its sensitive issues...]

Why must one expect mind-colonisers to not provoke? Why are you looking for ethics here? Why is it then that the Muslim world does not stay united when it comes to such a potent symbol? Why are we not provoked sufficiently when our people are debased and humanity is desecrated?
- - -
dost-mittarji (#72): [What other purpose is served by flushing down some paper and ink down the toilet?]

If it is mere paper and ink, then why protest against it?

[You might as well say that Indian Muslims should not have been hurt after the demolition of the Babri Masjid because it was merely an ``unused structure``, as was claimed by some.]

I deliberately avoided the Babri argument in the piece, but now we can get to that…The Quran is The Book, supposedly for all Muslims, who interpret it in the manner they deem fit. But there are several million copies being printed, in various sizes, languages, formats. It is personal.

The Babri Masjid was truly of no value at one point in time. After the rath yatra and the demolition it became a symbol for Muslims in India, not for Islam. It stood for minorityism and identity. Islam was not threatened (no religion can be, which is my point), but Indian Muslims were. The real wounds came from the riots that followed, which is why the Muslims even while still stinging from that episode are still prepared for a court verdict re. that site.
- - -
Vertex (#54, 80):

Obviously it is governments in Islamic societies and not the common people who create problems, but why do people follow the herd mentality? (Incidentally, democracies – in the West too – suffer from this malaise.)

[I mean, to me it seems like people are misusing this story to produce righteous diatribes, and we see this not only from the usual suspects (Manji, Tom Friedman), but even some resident chowkies ... :-)]

Hmmm, a swipe?? If it is, then this is no righteous diatribe. Self-questioning never is. The fact that one of the earlier respondents used the names of Mullah Omar and me together should reveal that the righteousness is a bit off-key :)
- - -
Nauman (#92): In a rather long article I used two quotes by Daniel Pipes and neither is offensive to Islam. I found his comment on Islamic democracy and socialism interesting.
- - -
Harimau (#102):

[What next?
``The Prophet is also just a man?``]

Yup. (Thanks Sajal…)

[``Ramzan is also another 30-day weight loss plan?``]

Depends on what you do after dusk…gorge and work up some sweat or go off to sleep.

[I shall await those with bated breath.]

Hate to keep you waiting. So…

Zakaat is also an excuse for a new wardrobe.
Namaaz is also a fine meditation and exercise regimen.
The ghusal is a good way to clean up untended parts of your body (e.g.behind the ears).
The Haj is also the only time for Muslims of all nationalities to come together dressed up as senators of the old Roman Empire.

You get the drift? Now you may exhale…

- - -

Inquirerji:
Aap ko kya moderates or Mullahs ki ladai se mazaa aa raha hai? Jaise Ana ne kahaa, yeh mud`aa sab ke liye mahatvapurna hai. Aur waise khud ke astitva se baghaavat karna tau aur bhi mushkil hota hai!
- - -
#109 by arstoo:

[Dear Chowk Moderator

Please enlighten us what Mr Echoboom is trying to say. I does`nt mind even if he is abusive.]

One is not aware of the content that is being filtered out, although Chowk staff did object to certain cut-paste material. Re. abusive stuff, if indeed it is that, you doesn`t mind, but I does. By anyone. (I had no idea people got enlightened by abuses...)

Sincerely,
Pakeezah :)
- - -

Kardesh:

Salim, is this your idea of a bachelor party?! Khush raho...let us see if you will still walk around these parts during the baby-shower...

=== Interact Removed ===

#106 by Kulharee on May 24, 2005 6:25pm PT


What would have happened if the offender had drowned a Hafiz in the toilet?


That would have been desecration of the toilet....