The Book is also Just a Book

Ajeya,

You have asked some simple and straightforward questions and none of the defenders of this great faith have given any straightforward answers to them and nobody will because nobody has a courage to answer them. They will only go around the questions, counterquestion you, and even put the burden on you to answer them in order to evade answering them.

#313 by dost-mittar

[Ajeya:

``Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russians, Chinese – ALL educated people think like this about muslims – everybody. They may not tell you on your face because you are a muslim. But they ALL say this if muslims are not around.``

Please speak for yourself, not for the whole world. If you haven`t come across muslims you didn`t like, it`s your problem, not theirs. It`s your right to like or hate islam, but you have no right to speak for other Hindus or Indians, let alone Russians, Europeans, etc. ]



``If you haven`t come across muslims you didn`t like, it`s your problem, not theirs``

It`s NOT TRUE that I don`t like Muslims.

I said the following:

``Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russians, Chinese – ALL educated people think like this about muslims – everybody.``

By ``think like this`` I implied ``looking down`` on people who would idolize someone like this.

It is difficult to look UP to ANYBODY who condones and appreciates such behavior.

And yes, what I said is actually true. The West, for example keeps it`s mouth shut because it needs gulf oil. But the feeling amongst the population is rampant. You`ll see the truth come out when the middle-east runs out of oil.

#313:

I meant to say that ``If you haven`t come across muslims you LIKE, it`s your problem, not theirs.``

Sorry for the confusion of double-negative.

Ajeya:

``Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russians, Chinese – ALL educated people think like this about muslims – everybody. They may not tell you on your face because you are a muslim. But they ALL say this if muslims are not around.``

Please speak for yourself, not for the whole world. If you haven`t come across muslims you didn`t like, it`s your problem, not theirs. It`s your right to like or hate islam, but you have no right to speak for other Hindus or Indians, let alone Russians, Europeans, etc.

Re: #309 by Vertex

Ayesha being happy/succesful in her marital life DOES NOT JUSTIFY WANTING TO HAVE A PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP WITH A LITTLE CHILD FOR A 50-YEAR OLD MAN WITH 11 WIVES.

Not THEN and not NOW.

Period.

#307 by Raw_Dust

[DM sir: i think you are dangerously close to being put on ignore by Romair. He already put Ajeya on, i think.]


He hasn`t put me on ignore.

He has just run out of anything to say to refute my arguments. So he`s PRETENDING to have put me on ignore.

For him, there`s no other way out. Because he has chosen to push his head deep into the sand.

However, if that buys him mental peace, then that`s fine. What is not fine is that although he could not answer the questions he himself raised, he keeps on arguing with others as if nothing happened.

That is hard to respect.

RE: #309 by vertex

[Un-hunh. So, specifically, what was lost by the Prophet`s (pbuh) wife? Nothing she cared to mention...oh but ``she was in love``...duh...that`s kinda the point...

The buden of proof is still on you. Fact is, pose these questions to yourself and if you have no hidden agenda and a shred of honesty, you must question then how ``abusive`` such a relationship was if it produced such a powerful personality]



There`s nothing for me to ``prove``.

Carnal attraction to a 6-year old child that plays with toys MEANS ONLY ONE THING - PEDOPHILIA.

It is that by definition..

You don`t get it, and you won`t get it.

Because there is a fundamental difference between people of your inhuman ilk and people of my ilk.

The difference is that you adore such a man, and consider him the perfect example of humanity, whereas I would not let him into my house or anywhere near my children.

Your ENTIRE existence depends on the words of such a man.

This is why educated people who are non-muslim LOOK DOWN upon you and your religion.

You would like to think of it as hatred for muslims. BUT IT IS NOT. It’s just plain disgust, and amazement that educated people such as yourself could stomach this, and even admire such a character. That’s all.

Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russians, Chinese – ALL educated people think like this about muslims – everybody. They may not tell you on your face because you are a muslim. But they ALL say this if muslims are not around.

dost,

``I have no desire to cut-and-paste verses that have been often quoted-misquoted-spunaround at chowk before. If you have missed them, I would suggest that you do a google search by entering the words quran, non-believers, pagan, kafir...you may also add islamic websites to go to authentic muslim sources.``

LOL, the point is you ARE claiming that the verses relate to all non-Muslims. Who is misquoting, btw? Are you accusing Muslims here of misquoting?

I need not search for anything...I have the knowledge. The challenge is to you. I don`t think you understand said verses...that was the point. I am well aware of them, and the history behind each. I am also aware of the spectrum of thought that is often projected onto them. The question is, are you?


``I have frequently criticised the hindu religion and hindus at chowk, people disagreed with me but did not call me anti-hindu;``

I am not calling you anti-Muslim, just that the polemic you raised is often one raised unthinkingly by such people.

``Here, I used an example from the quran to make a general point about the incompatibility of various religions and some people lost no time in putting a label on me. Thanks, anyway.``

That is in your head. Please stop playing the role of victim.

---

Raw_Dust,

How so?

---

Ajeya,

``It would take too much time for me to explain to you what a little girl loses when she loses her innocence so young.``

Un-hunh. So, specifically, what was lost by the Prophet`s (pbuh) wife? Nothing she cared to mention...oh but ``she was in love``...duh...that`s kinda the point...

The buden of proof is still on you. Fact is, pose these questions to yourself and if you have no hidden agenda and a shred of honesty, you must question then how ``abusive`` such a relationship was if it produced such a powerful personality.

Romair: read your posts but was having too much fun on this long weekend...did not had energy to post my comments. Not that this thread is dying, we will talk about ti some other time but want to say few obvious things.

What is a ``logic`` that depends upon muslim, hindu or sikh viewpoint? Logic is Logic no matter which viewpoint you look at it. ``your muslim viewpoint`` assumes something, something very big..that Allah has sent the Quran exactly as it is written and kept in heaven....then onwards you try to justify everything else..that is a big assumption...fact is you know about Quran and everything in it ONLy through Mohammad. There is no OTHER witness to this communication/transaction. Henc utmost resepct/faith in him. once you start doubting HIM you are on a slippery slope.

Lot of people believe or partially give a benefit of doubt that THERE is a GOD. That does not mean these people start accepting every airraq gaira nathoo khaira`s words ke ji God has said this to him. You can not dismiss the opposing view jut by saying it is a atheistic viewpoint.

Secondly from your comments on Qoran, Hadith and Shariah,....wow...my friend we are talking about adifferent Islam...your personal one...good for you but there never was a Islam of Romair...what is out there is Islam of Mohammad.

vertex dude -
seeing Mohammad`s making out with Ayesha as something BEYOND suspect is in my book amount to WORSHIPPING Mohammad.
Dost-Mittar sahib is right on the money.

DM sir: i think you are dangerously close to being put on ignore by Romair. He already put Ajeya on, i think.

Romair#299:

``No one person or group`s Shariah is binding on anyone else. There is no one, who can instruct me to do something, in a binding manner, when it comes to Islam. Neither can I instruct anyone to do as I want them to do, in Islam.``

I am worried about you. This is what the naive Pakistani professor thought when he said that the Prophet`s parents were not Muslims or that he was not circumcised as it was against the practice of his tribe. We all know what happened to him.

``Believe me, all of this is very liberating, for people who do believe in the concept of God and the concept of religion.``

You read the quran and find Islam very liberating. I read the same book and am queasy about certain passages. I guess it all depends upon one`s perspective.

``Seriously speaking, if I didn`t know you better, I would have confused you for a spokesperson for the BJP...........``

You give BJP spokespersons too much credit. Barring a few individuals like Arun Shourie, their knowledge of Islam does not go beyond Aurangzeb, Ghazni and Babri masjid. In any case, I do not reject anything just because its source is the BJP, or Milligazette for that matter.

vertex#300:

````The verse is not an isolated verse, the Book is full of several very harsh verses for
non-believers.``

ALL of them? Who in particular? Pardon me for the quiz, but that is not incidental... ``

I have no desire to cut-and-paste verses that have been often quoted-misquoted-spunaround at chowk before. If you have missed them, I would suggest that you do a google search by entering the words quran, non-believers, pagan, kafir...you may also add islamic websites to go to authentic muslim sources.

``Well...if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ;-) Sorry...couldn`t resist...``
I have frequently criticised the hindu religion and hindus at chowk, people disagreed with me but did not call me anti-hindu; I have suggested on this or another live thread that the sikh gurus may not have always practised what they preached; again people disagreed but did not call me anti-sikh. Here, I used an example from the quran to make a general point about the incompatibility of various religions and some people lost no time in putting a label on me. Thanks, anyway.

Islam is the most obdurately inegalitarian religion, bar none. It`s distinguishing characteristic is that it completely lacks any philosophical or moral basis to even question its own inegalitarianism.

Re: #300 by vertex

[Ajeya,

Whatever. Point was she was happy and highly strong and ``undamaged`` for her young marriage (6, 14, whatever it was). Burden of proof is now on you to say why it was wrong then. I can think of reasons for now, but for then, the burden is on you.]


It would take too much time for me to explain to you what a little girl loses when she loses her innocence so young. You can question this only if you are completely heartless. A nine-year-old girl – what does she understand about her body, about love. What kind of a mind does she have? What kind of a man wants to put his 50-year-old hands on a little child?

I am a man. So I understand what kind of a mental make-up is required to do such a thing.

Then AND now.

The burden of proof is on me, eh?

You should be ashamed of yourself. If you had any self-respect, you would be posing these questions to yourself, and should be asking yourself what’s wrong with your own mindset that this seems like an appropriate action to you, for ANY time, for ANYBODY, let alone a man who is supposed to be an EXAMPLE to others.

Just because society did not prevent it, does not mean he had to do such a thing. He should have been the one to change this aspect of society, instead of becoming one of its worst examples.

i see that romair has not bothered to respond to this...what happened?

[In fact, there are so many things in the Quran, itself, which would have been impossible for an illiterate man (even for a prominent scientist of his time, much less an illiterate man) in 7th century Arabia to have come up with. Many of which would only be proven hundreds of years, later.......... ]

Name ONE.

It’s mind boggling that flushing of a book will create such a drama in the Islamic world. Two days ago, 20 people were blown to pieces in Bari Imam shrine in Islamabad. I wonder is there was any desecration of Quran during the blow up session, and wonder a little more if there will be protests against such killings from Morocco to Malaysia (as was the case with the news of flushing). It’s sad that a Book holds more value than a life.