The Book is also Just a Book

Re: # 134
Thanks for the moderate tone. I expected your posting to be blocked out by the even Pakistani Chowk!
But I disagree with your desperation as much as as with your extremism. I have faith that the presence of muslims like feozk and farzana will ultimately lead from Zia to Musharraf and then better!

Re: # 142 DM
//...My condolences to you for losing your wonderful MP, Sunil Dutt...//

Off the topic, but was Sunit Dutt really a ``Wonderful MP``? Just curious - because I see overflowing of emotions in Indian media now that he is dead. But I never heard of he doing anything when he was alive. .... What exactly did he do for Bombay?

#112 Farzana

“However, the primary aim of this article is not about “Westernised thugs”. My tangential point here is, “How many Islamic nations put their wealth and manpower to fight the Western forces against their aggression towards their own? Where is the Islamic revivalism one hears about? …where is the unified, self-respecting, self-sufficient Islam?”

Unlike some people here, I do not believe that unless you blow hot against something you become a slave of that thing. I do believe that sagacity and showing complete disdain would send out a stronger message. What is the purpose of following the pattern that the West has got used to, and ensnared many into?”

That is the area I was trying not go into but if you insist…
Religious revivalism in every period of the history has failed though that never stopped people from attempting it. At least for the last two thousand year, we have seen multiple revivalist movements in not just Islam but in all religions. Currently the prominent ones are Hindu (RSS/VHP), Christian-USA (Family Value and religious right), and Islam (wahabiat). Religious revivalisms fail because they believe in static value system. For the religious revivalists, things have to be what they were some odd years ago and it is a common thread you would see in all current revivalists’ movements including the ones I referred above. Historically, only nationalist revivalism based on geographical entity, have succeeded. The minute a revivalist movement attempts to transcend multiple geographical or national boundaries it fails miserably. That is what is happening to the Islamic revivalist movement. It will continue to slide and when you talk about “the unified, self-respecting, self-sufficient Islam?” you allow yourself to fall in the Mullah’s rhetoric and I assume that is unintentional on your part.
Your intention may be noble when you want a levelheaded response and a strong message but when you attempt to translate that into some practical method you fall right into the ditch mullah is trying to dig for some time.
There cannot be a unified response if the response is based on an artificial unity based on religion transcending multiple geographical areas and Nations. Muslims living in India are entirely different from Muslims living in turkey or in Indonesia or even in Pakistan. They may have a common thread of religion but that thread when placed against much strong currents of Nationalism and National interests/aspirations just falls hugely short of a “unified” response rhetoric.

“What is the purpose of following the pattern that the West has got used to, and ensnared many into?”

You see a pattern that the West has for every nation and not for Muslims alone. As long as the formula works, it is going to be used. When the West attempts to use that formula against a nationalist movement, it mostly fails because it meets the unified response but in this case, where we have West VS. The Islam or the Mullah, the formula would always succeed because the formula is way too advanced for an archaic ideology like religion.

This is not a complex thought just to make it clear if the current struggle were between the Arab revivalism against the West, Arabs would have had easily maneuvered a unified response but when you try and revive Islam to fight the west, the differences between the followers of Islam become too glaring for a unified response.

IMO, At this juncture of the struggle, the US is presenting a much more progressive and liberal alternative to different Nations like Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and many more. the Mullah is attempting to fight that off by trying to unify Pakistan, Saudi and Iraq etc on religious rhetoric and as I stated above the Mullah is bound to fail because of its regressive response cannot capture the national aspirations of Pakistanis, Iraqi or even Saudis.

#143

``How many Muslims were killed protesting the desecration (actually demolition) of Bimyan Buddhas by the Taliban?``

Wrong question! Muslim sentiments were not hurt by the demolition of Bamiyan Buddhas. Whether one agrees or not, the demolition was quite proper according to the fundamentalist muslim belief.

...but you could have asked how many buddhists were killed following that incident?

((Whether one agrees or not, the demolition was quite proper according to the fundamentalist muslim belief. ))

Whether one agrees or not, American wreacking havoc and creating puppets is quite proper according to their belief of Manifest Destiny and Leaders of the world, Superiority etc....and the natural law of winner controls and takes the resources.

Frankly, DM you surprise me with `logic` like above.

Sunil Dutt hailed from your neck of woods. Did you know him as a kid?

Re: # 147

Dost Mittar Ji, That’s the question that I asked, and if to you it appears a wrong question to ask, then you go to hell my brother.

I am trying to figure out the dishonesty and two-faced peculiarity of Muslims (not all by any means), while they hold their own scripture in such high esteem, they don’t show the same respect to the scripture and symbols of other faiths. That’s all.

This was just another excuse to have some Jalsa Jaloos against America, the great Satan. They don’t give a hoot about Quran or what it stands for. It’s placed so high up in houses that you need a ladder to reach it.

Dost ji, I do not agree with your notion of fundamentalists’ beliefs either (in relation to not showing respect to other faiths). There’s no such thing. These hoodlums can’t even read or write their own names let alone be familiar with the fundamentals of Islam. There’s a distinction between terrorist thugs and religious fundamentalists. Confusing the two as one of the same is a very common mistake that people make.

Re: # 146
Very interesting analysis.

It is due to the considerations suggested by you that the progressive Congress leaders had proposed to the Muslim League leaders prior to independence of India to desist from the demand for partition of our country. However the revivalist groups among Hindus as well as Muslims incited by the clever British strategy to keep reurgent India (=South Asia) down led to the partition. That also explains the 180 degree turn around of Jinnah between 1925 and 1937.

Thanks.

dost-mittar, et all...

Wrong question again...

The question is, how many buddhist states were occupied by the Talibs when they blew up the statues...

---

HP,

``There cannot be a unified response if the response is based on an artificial unity based on religion transcending multiple geographical areas and Nations. Muslims living in India are entirely different from Muslims living in turkey or in Indonesia or even in Pakistan.``

Not entirely, and as far as this issue is concerned they are quite unified. However, that unity has no outlet, no aparatus to implement into action other than miltant reactionism. If there were but one Muslim power, for example, the unity would have been realized into something much more than the vaporous rhetoric we`re seeing by the fustrated majority against a self-serving elite.

The bottom line is, America may be winning militarily, but I seriously doubt the political stability and health of the current crop of pro-western leaders across the Muslim/Arab world unless they deliver something tangible, and now.

Insofar as Arab-revivalism vs. Islamism is concerned, I think Arab nationalism was even a bigger joke than Islamism here. Whereas the latter create the illusion of action, the Arab nationalists have been exposed and discredieted not only over Iraq, but over the Palestinian issue as well (not to mention defat after defat against Israel). Let us not pretend that the Iraq war was *only* touted as an Islamic cause. Islam has always been used by Arab nationalists, anyway...

Re # 150

There was nothing like resurgent India before independecne. What was it resurging about?
What signs were there that British were afraid of united India that they schemed to
keep it down by dividing it? Ulta, India is resurging now. If it was a United India, as it has been demonstrated and proven amply by so many writers on chowk and otherwise, united India would be like what current Pakistan is, probably worst. We would still be debating the basic questions which the current India has setteled long ago and marching ahead and it has
long long long way to go before it becomes any threat to anybody (I hope it does not
become military threat to anybody though, just to thwart 1962s and Kargils).

This notion that British were afraid of resurgent India and South Asia as a collective block
would be an eminent and significant entity is all bull cxxp, IMHO.
Current India is the way to go.

``It will continue to slide and when you talk about “the unified, self-respecting, self-sufficient Islam?” you allow yourself to fall in the Mullah’s rhetoric and I assume that is unintentional on your part.
Your intention may be noble when you want a levelheaded response and a strong message but when you attempt to translate that into some practical method you fall right into the ditch mullah is trying to dig for some time.``


That sums up the article.

147,

Using your ``logic``, ALL the havoc wrecked by invaders since Ghazni, Qasim etc. is ``PROPER`` since it was their fundamental belief. WOW!

Temple Destructions, Kafir Killing, etc. in India all is `proper`. The ongoing mistreatment of non muslims is all proper then.

This desecration of Quran business a ploy by ullema to rile up masses into protests. It is an attempt by mullah to display their street power. On the other hand suicide bombings by jihadis have killed hundreds of innocent bystanders … children, women, and men. But these bombings have failed to draw much protests from the ullema brigade. And they are worried sick about a few pages of Quran? Humbug …

Urstruly (#115):

Where was your talk of “peaceful cohesive culture and mutual respect and decency” when you mullahs were violently protesting against Ahmadis and attacking their mosques and houses? The shameful state of ullema is what they have brought upon themselves. Get yourself together and stop crying foul … it won’t get you anywhere …

Re: # 152
India had resurged enough to force the British to leave. Furthermore, it was clear to all thinking persons that India under the enlightened leadership of Nehru will make it big. This inspite of the initial food problems.
Don`t tell me that you think that the British strategy was for the good of newly emerging India.
The important thing about the Congress leadership was that it was willing to work and inspire for strenthening the Indian masses.

Farzana -

Why do you think Muslims are so sensitive about their religion and its symbols?

Re: # 157

.... i don`t mean to answer for fv, but since i have a few minutes to spare :

a) because the flock (aka ummah) is largely illiterate and superstitious
b) because islam is a poorly pirated copy of judaism and christianity and the herders (ulema) are afraid that everyone else will find that out
c) because the rligion itself calls upon the flock and the herders to defend it (with blood if necessary)
d) because the flock consists of primitive folks who like to raise mayhem
e) because most unmarried muslim men are sexually frustrated (segregation of women and all that)
f) because most muslims are insecure and feel inadequate and therefore are easily threatened
g) their faith cannot be defended intellectually, hence they riot in the streets at the drop of a koran
h)..........

........... now i have to get back to this terribly boring meeting ...........

re: 157

It may be useful to answer that question in light of the fact that this extreme sensitivity has been very much a constant over time.