The Ultimate Betrayal

ana,


.......... okay.... as a father and somone who personally knows a few victims of child molestation and incest, i am deadly serious about this subject .............. what gets my goat is the fact that a lot of desis think that they are immune from this problem; that this is yet another manifestation of western decadance; that if only we buried our noses in the book and raised our butts to the heavens we would escape from this scourge; that our ``family values`` will protect our nieces and nephews from being molested by family members .and that if only we could return to the time of the prophet we could preempt dirty old men from molesting our daughters by marrying them off to dirtier old men ............. it is sheer nonsense being perpetuated by delusional desis and mad mullahs ..............

..........damn !

Sorry I am a bit late joining you all (didn’t ANYBODY miss me)? Darn, I feel so small! Just when I started to think that this nacheez had begun to mean something to this lot. Oops, another 4-ltr word slips out. Oh well, no kayamat so far!

Sajal, needless to repeat others, but it’s indeed a beautifully written article. I found its ending particularly strong!

My two cents:

First, let’s not worry about what used to happen in ancient/old times, the problem of NOW is the one needing address.

Sexual predatory is an individual-centered issue, and certainly not specific to a particular type of religious or societal setup. (As shown in another short article (Kati Patang by Azmat Hussain) 3-4 weeks ago, such abuse is also not limited to girls.) However, most such predators are “cunning” and very highly opportunistic. Therefore, a particular societal backdrop may sometimes provide increased opportunities for such individuals.

In the west, because most families are nuclear, there are rarely any extended family members available and these opportunities may be more frequent. Potential perpetrators would be sometimes immediate relations or associated figures (for example, the boyfriend of a divorced mom) or members of the clergy, or a school teacher, or whoever gets an opportunity to spend time with the child alone. Therefore, the state is trying to get more involved into this issue by encouraging teachers, students, neighbors, etc. to report suspected abuse situations. In my view, this is having a significant success, not so much by directly deterring the perpetrators, but by empowering the child by making them more knowledgeable about what could happen to them and how to go about reporting it.

In the subcontinent, it may be the other way around. Since there are so many family members around, the number of potential predators may also be more. This is of course complicated by the fact that sex itself may be a taboo subject (what to say of this type of sex) and the kid is not able to talk to any one. In my view, in most cases the spouse or other immediate family members are usually aware of the “problem” but choose to look the other way, either they are themselves afraid, or uncomfortable with the topic, or insecure/dependent. Also, the law-enforcement agency may be ineffective or missing.

Most abused children, particularly whose abuse remains undiscovered or gets hushed up, themselves would repeat the cycle by committing abuse – this is a statistical fact.

It should also be mentioned that there is legally no such thing as a child’s “consent” for something of this nature.

Also, even without sex education, most children can instinctively feel the “wrongness” of such activities, no matter how bonded they may be (through family ties or other links) to the perpetrator. However, sex education empowers them more, a LOT more!

Note: MiriamK, various posts.

Your anger is a natural gut reaction in situations like this for anyone who empathizes with the victim. I do feel that the focus must however, remain on ways to address the problem (in other words, while castration may be desirable, some kind of education/counseling may be more practicable, since many times the victims/survivors are economically dependent on the criminal).

Ana:

I commend you that you can find the courage to narrate the tragic experience from your own situation. Not easy! May God give you the power to put it (and keep it) behind, on a permanent basis. Most victims are not able to completely do so.

okay. . . time to shut down the computer but a few things:

HP: thank you. :)

ntsyed: raw dust may have challenged it, but i know people who live and have lived it.

hamid: your trying to make a point via humor/sarcasm is not quite working here. sometimes you really do make much more sense when you`re serious.

and now, to the deluge. . .
--ana

hp,

..... i am not surprised by your statistics and i am sure they are tha same for india or pakistan ............. i used to think that mrs hamidm, wo is an er physician, was paranoid when she refused to let our kids have sleep-overs and would not trust even her own brother to look after them for an hour or so .............. i never drive my daughter`s friends home unless my daughter is with us, and unless mrs hamidm is home they cannot come over ............ as adults it is our duty to protect our children and contrary to the popular delusion our ``family values`` do not offer a lot of protection ...........

hamidm,

``for god`s sake even chickens and farm animals are not safe from a ninteen-twenty year old young man with raging hormones and no hope of finding a human sexual partner !!! ``


Off topic... Normal sexual behaviour in every farming community...

save the chickens ..........

...... even though nobody keeps any kind of statistics on anything in pakistan, it is common knowledge that incest, child molestation and pederasty is very common - even more so than in the west ........... the big difference is the trapped whale syndrome - remember a few years ago when a few whales trapped somewhere off the west coast had the whole nation mesmerized for more than a week ? ........ when people are starving to death, or dying of malaria, a few young boys being buggered by maulvis or nieces being raped by mamoons is not big news ............

.......... it should be obvious to anyone whith half a brain that has not been pulverized by swaying back and forth while chanting in arabic, that these diseases have to be more prevalent in societies where the sexes are strictly segregated .............. for god`s sake even chickens and farm animals are not safe from a ninteen-twenty year old young man with raging hormones and no hope of finding a human sexual partner !!!

............. so let`s worry about poultry..............

Ntsyed Sahib
#213

Aray Ntsyed Sahib you are taking life much too seriously. Please lighten up, take a few chill pills and then we’ll hang out and have a discussion. Your delightful persiflage notwithstanding, I could have said I have a pain in the neck summer class and a huge assignment due tomorrow and so I can’t get into this in a serious way today but I didn’t want to bore everyone with the mundane details of my life. Hence the Shrek comment. Although I do play it with my nephews and am not ashamed to admit it in public.

You know me, this dear sister isn’t abandoning the good fight. I just a have G.P.A to keep up here…grad. school and all…you understand.

Re: # 189 & 193 Raw_Dust

Quran - the alter ego of Mohammad - giving the Prophet Mohammad, a blank cheque to populate his harem with even more Wives that a True Momin can only dream for in his next life. Brilliant!

No sire, yours are priceless posts on this board – both mentioned above :-)~~

As I have pointed out in my last post, this is a perfect example of pure Islam-bashing without any basis, rhyme, reason, or substantiation of any kind. The EMBODIMENT of belligerent anti-Muslim islamophobe.

I thank you for proving my point so effectively!

Wallah, if it wasn’t for these suckers, this work would be so boring.... :-)~~

Alhumdollilah wa Allah O Akber. Indeed He works in mysterious Ways.

:-)~~


#197 by miriamk

It’s official, democracy has run amuck at Chowk.

Thank you dear sister miriamk for proving that democracy ``as defined by the glorious West today`` does nothing but run amuck until the public throws up arms and goes to play Shrek or get drunk after work or change the channel on the tele for a cheesy movie with a ``who cares anymore`` attitude while raw dust piles up on our values - the central point of my post.

:-)~~


#187 by Ana,

While Urstruly replies to your post, I just wanted to point out the following:

In theory, your argument that `` `moral` values without religion are not impossible`` sounds good and valid.

No offence, but unfortunately, it has been amply disproved by Raw_Dust in 189 & 193. Please think about it without your emotions.

Thank you for #200.

:-)~~

Re: # 189 & 193 Raw_Dust

Quran - the alter ego of Mohammad - giving the Prophet Mohammad, a blank cheque to populate his harem with even more Wives that a True Momin can only dream for in his next life. Brilliant!

No sire, yours are priceless posts on this board – both mentioned above :-)~~

As I have pointed out in my last post, this is a perfect example of pure Islam-bashing without any basis, rhyme, reason, or substantiation of any kind. The EMBODIMENT of belligerent anti-Muslim islamophobe.

I thank you for proving my point so effectively!

Wallah, if it wasn’t for these suckers, this work would be so boring.... :-)~~

Alhumdollilah wa Allah O Akber. Indeed He works in mysterious Ways.

:-)~~


#197 by miriamk

It’s official, democracy has run amuck at Chowk.

Thank you dear sister miriamk for proving that democracy ``as defined by the glorious West today`` does nothing but run amuck until the public throws up arms and goes to play Shrek or get drunk after work or change the channel on the tele for a cheesy movie with a ``who cares anymore`` attitude while raw dust piles up on our values - the central point of my post.

:-)~~


#187 by Ana,

While Urstruly replies to your post, I just wanted to point out the following:

In theory, your argument that `` `moral` values without religion are not impossible`` sounds good and valid. Unfortunately, it has been amply disproved by Raw_Dust in 189 & 193. I hope you noticed that too.

Thank you for #200.

:-)~~

ana,

You are right. My fault! I meant NOT a pakistani issue alone!

p.s to #208.

incest/child molestation is very much a pakistani issue, it is very much an indian issue, it is very much an american issue, it is very much a worldwide issue. on behalf of the pakistanis on this board who have been molested, or whose pants were being unzipped while being spoken ``sweetly`` to, i would like to make that clear for those who say that this is not a pakistani issue at all -- perhaps the poster meant to say something else?

Here is an exchange on a forum with some folks on this issue.
(Apologies if you find some quotes offensive!)

“I`m sure it happens, but I`d be willing to bet a grand it`s a VERY low percentage, and also that most of that is done in the backwoods states where all the family fcks the family and that`s been going on for decades!”


“My ex was from a family that was a pillar of the community (ok...It`s a small, rural community, but NOT a backwoods dump!) Right before we split, after 20 years, she confided that her dad had sex with her from the time that she was about 6. She SAYS that it stopped when she was about 10 but I have strong reasons to believe that it continued even AFTER she and I were married.

She had 4 sisters and ALL 4 of them supposedly had sex with him, too. One of them (the youngest) even had a baby...supposedly by him.

If you knew these people, and DIDN`T know the history, you would never believe that it had happened. My ex was the sweetest, cutest, meekest girl around there! ``

``I was talking with a girl on the internet a couple a nights ago. She says that she had sex with her dad since she was 5....intercourse since 8. She sent me some pics of her.....a real cutey pie. She says that HE instigated it but that she really liked it and would tease him into doing stuff on a regular basis....from the time she was 6.

“As a HS teacher, I use to hear the kids talking about whose dad was doing the daughters. ``

``I really think that it happens a lot more than most of us think....even in areas that are NOT backwoods, Desi.”

“You people who insist on believing that fathers don`t fck daughters don`t know much about this world.``

``I dated a girl once - we were both in our early twenties - who refused to have sex with me. I couldn`t figure out why then one day she told me she would want to let me know that she was having sex with her dad since her mother died when she was 12.

So that explains why her dad was so mean to me. “


”Folks, dads fcking daughters? it happens more often that you`d think.”

There is an underworld out there!

re: chasing tails. . .

to quote from the song ``atomic dog`` : ``. . . for the dog who chases his tail will get dizzy.``

there was a comment made here that i cannot ignore completely. i understand why it was made, but it is left open for interpretation. i will leave it open, except to say that in the many posts we have had here, there have been a variety of people from different backgrounds be they religious or not, indians, pakistanis and the ``hyphenated`` ones. (those who live outside of india and pakistan). and i for one appreciate everyone`s input here, even those we`ve disagreed with. . . sajal disappeared on us at some point, but we`ve all moderated this quite well, and i for one appreciate that the issues this story presented with were more the focus rather than everything else which is usually the focus on other boards. i think my input is done here for now, as i need to focus on exams, but again, it was nice exchanging views with y`all.

--ana

Raw Dust:

ab aap bura maan rahay ho...

i think collectively we are inching forward...viz HP`s latest discovery....and various posts by ana, miriam and others...

this is not something anyone can solve in a day or year... what we can hope is to provide help, motivation, focus to ourselves and to those who work in the field to provide help, information and post-abusal care and other services to the affected children

Here are some stats from the US. It seems that incest is not only Father-Daughter but it could be mother-daughter-son issue also. I find some numbers unbelievable. If we go by these numbers, women are just being molested left and right in this country.


http://www.icasa.org/statsFacts.asp?parentid=531

17% of women reported at least one unwanted sexual contact (narrowly defined) by a relative before the age of 16. This suggests that approximately 1 in 6 girls have been sexually abused by a relative in childhood.

34% of women reported at least one unwanted sexual contact by a nonrelative before age 16, suggesting that 1 in 3 girls is sexually abused by a nonrelative in childhood.

In total, 42% of women reported at least one experience of incestuous and/or extrafamilial sexual abuse before age 16. 27% were sexually abused before
age 8.

If a broader definition is used, including unwanted kisses, nongenital sexual touching, or noncontact experiences such as having someone masturbate in front of them, 53.8% of women reported an unwanted sexual experience before age 16.


4.5% of women report an incestuous experience with a father or stepfather before the age of 18. Girls with stepfathers are seven times more likely to be sexually abused than other girls. Of girls with biological fathers, 2.3% are sexually abused by them. 17% of girls with stepfathers are sexually abused by them.
4.9% of women report an incestuous experience with an uncle before the age of 18.
2% of women report an incestuous experience with a brother.”

---

42% is very high number and there are people out there that are questioning these numbers. They claim that:
http://www.fmsfonline.org/
``Some of our memories are true, some are a mixture of fact and fantasy, and some are false -- whether those memories seem to be continuous or seem to be recalled after a time of being forgotten or not thought about.

Then how can we know if our memories are true? The professional organizations agree: the only way to distinguish between true and false memories is by external corroboration.

What could cause a person to believe sincerely in something that never happened? We have posted on this site both scientific views, derived from suggestibility and influence studies, and insights provided by retractors -- individuals who once accepted as true certain memories that they now believe to have been false.

Does it matter if someone has a false belief about the past? Most of the time it doesn`t. Sometimes, however, false beliefs cause great harm, not only to the people who hold them, but also to others. This site provides information about how some false beliefs about memory have seriously harmed the believers, their families and other innocent individuals.``

One Professor Elizabeth Loftus ( http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/) has some interesting articles on the issue of false memories.

Ana - not at all, I`m flattered... :)

Urstruly - first of all, welcome to Hinduism... secondly, while those words have been around throughout this discussion, I get the feeling you have quite different definitions than the ones the rest of us [with a couple of exceptions] are using. Re: the points raised by you, they have been addressed before and repeatedly by various interactors.

HP - thanks for the figures. More later...