The Ultimate Betrayal

Re: # 114 by ShoreSahib on May 28, 2005 11:59am PT

Re:105

Mahashey Nt ``FAKE`` Syed,

The only smoke you are observing is the one you are blowing up my ass.

LOL...and you seem to like the idea of anything and everything blowing up your ass....naughty boy, you are!

Now that I have some time on my hands :-)~~

Re: # 112

khamkhwa writes: ``... i think you people... the `modern` ones are picking on urstruly, echoboom and nuttysyed just becoz they are mullahs or wannabe mullahs... it`s none of your goddamn business if they want to sleep with their daughters...``

temporal replies:

khamy:
there is truth in your irreverence

Sorry folks....but I haven`t found the diving gear for this liberally civilized bottomless gutter :-)~~

BTW temporal, when you lovingly refer to khamkhwa as khamy, are you hinting at his/her mental defects or physical...or both? Or do you consider his/her entire existence as a ``khamy``?

But WHY?

He/she seems just as degenerate as you!

Or are you claiming that you`re a perfect degenerate? In that case, ``There`s truth`` to your pride! I`m sure the rodents you command must be atten-hut and saluting you.

The funny thing is, that none of the ``righteous`` liberals found it offensive...at least not enough to say ``khamy, temporal, you`re out of line``.

NOT ONE, NADA, ZILCH, ZERO!

Not even the ALL-SO-SENSITIVE women.

Oh well, what else could we define as diabolic. :-)~~

Anyway, temporal continues:

nts:
you sir are irrelevant..to this discussion...

Why thanks, temporal....thanks for rephrasing my point I made in #105......lol

WOW, you`re such a genius. I`m sure all the 1,000,000 jackasses sacrificed to facilitate your birth must be proud of ya

:-)~~

Dotty,

That was quite an amusing tangent. What did it mean?

We ALL know incest and molestation exist. Most of CHOOSE to ignore it taking refuge in the most scoundrel rationales.

All writing is inherently political, whether the numbers of your congresspeople are attached to the text or not.

Its a scary story. And for those of us who are parents of little children the reason that it is so scary is that it can be true. Its not just something that happens in the wild, wild west. It can happen anywhere, even in those countries where we came from. Its not just a stranger, it could be a relative or it even could be someone who works for you. Its not just children in the slums - it happens in affluent homes too.
So while its just a story, the author is showing us demons who exist in real life. So don`t forms camps and shoot each other.

#136 thank you for pointing it out to me , now go and gratify yourself by finding some paedophilic material.

Re: # 135
You half Wit
The Author is a SHE!

and you really are one dumb fuck!

this time I AM insulting you.

Ooooh, please find a different insult now. The crab thing is so old and tired.
come up with something original.

but then again, I forgot!

You harp about the same thing over and over again.

So keep at it, Honey!

Muah.

Now go make give English lessons to some hapless nitwit.

Re: # 127 Thanks AlephNull. The reaction is not really strong...but I fell that such articles have appeared so often within the diasporic world, that they are currently meaningless. Such articles have appeared before umpteen number of times, yet the situation continues. You read it the first time it moves you and in some they start doing something about it. The second time it appears, a few more people start doing something about it. and so on. Surely, given the number of times such stories have appeared in the diasporic world (here diasporic is south asian), surely a whole bunch of people should have been moved to do something about it... and that this has to appear so many times to shake people...That this has not happened indicates a number of things

(a) we as south asians are cool about it all, and feel that this is not a problem/issue
(b) that we have already solved this problem
(c) is titillating somebody out there. Titillation is not JUST SEXUAL HERE...there could also be economic titillation (like the tabloid frenzy......)

I am all for this kind of story, since it forces us to think about the people who suffer here.

But from my point of view, this piece would have been more meaningfull, if it continued beyond that last line. For it stops in mid-air. There are descriptions of pain etc in the middle, but beyond that pain and that last line there is not MUCH NEW THERE.

So what was the author really trying to get across here. He said somehere here (interacts) - he wanted to see our reaction to this kind of behaviour (I paraphrase here). Big deal. What did he expect, something other than revulsion and sympathy (in equal measures for the different characters)?. Is he a closet winder of people? Is he the neighbourhood aunty type - who justs cluck, clucks, hands out sympathies and goes on about her business, whilst spreading more gossip and muck over kitchen windows the next whilst making that vindaloo! What is he really thinking to achieve here. (My negative reaction started started after that interact from the author really). Forexample, the author has not told us why this is bad (we all know why this bad)? If we all know why this is bad, what the eff is this story here for - apart from titillating. If there are some of us who dont know why this is bad, then TELL US WHY THIS IS BAD? The author seems to indicate the second - but he fails miserably here.

A story of this kind if it has to really shake us beyond our world weiry selves, has to go beyond just a few meaningless lines. It has to shake us from our slumbers. Otherwise it is meaningless, and we all could read this, and like the neighbourhood aunty, cluck, cluck away and go back to our daily grind!

Re: # 125 think you need basic english language skills. That was not a psychoanalysis of you personality. Thank you for the grand announcement, hope the crabs you got were tasty. (T)

Sajal, good job bringing all these ideas out. What I particularly appreciate, and what makes me think you know something about this, is that Sara still loves her father; that is what makes reporting CSA so hard for kids, besides of course the fear.
I think incest is probably a little less common in India than in the west, but the scary thing is that most developed countries can protect children to some degree through law and child protection agencies. In India, there is precious little that can be done for children who have suffered incest. My distant cousin`s wife accused her father-in-law of molesting her daughters in the middle of a divorce case,and of course all her in-laws accused her of lying. When my mother and I said we believed it because he was a nasty old man, there was much shock and consternation. She later reconciled with her husband, but never did allow her father-in-law access to the girls again. These things do happen.

This is interesting.

So when urstruly calls it a whiteman`s problem, he is not man enough.
But when HP agrees with him, and gives an elaborated reply saying

`` I am not going to blame one society more than the other for incest. I am sure it happens in every society but it is not an epidemic yet in the Asian societies. There are certain reasons for incest in the western societies and the biggest one is the cold weather. A majority of incest cases is reported in the western societies from the areas that go thru harsh cold weather and are mostly farming or agriculture communities. Vermont State in the US is known as the incest capital of the US. There may be similar areas in Canada or in European countries. In the winter, farmers have nothing to do. They stay at home drinking beer or other liquor and sometime under the influence, they molest their daughters. Wives live with it for obvious economic reasons. `

No body objects. Not even single comment. No body accuses him/her of being a abdul hate, generalising about the good americans.

So when urstruly say, its not happening in SA, and US has a large number of 10 yr old pregnent girls, he is asked to show stats. And when HP mentions about the stats on issue of child-rape and incest in SA, the small `t` suggests we should move ``beyond stats``,

So, when echoboom calls small `t` a kanjarr and a goraa goo chattarr, (whch is totally is), he is being typical muslim. However, small `t` calling everyone who doesnt agree with him as ``abdul hates`` is just a `` a taste of their medicine back to them.``

HP raised a very interesting issue of Urdu or hindi not having a word for ``incest``. Our local Imam once asked the people if they can translate ``haya`` in english. And when no one answered, he smiled and said, because it doesnt exist in english, there is no need to have a word for it in english.

http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/library/CMCWEBSITE/AxisPapers.pdf
This is very informative.I have only glanced through it,and would be able to comment on how it bears on the discussion later,this being Saturday night and all.

Re: # 129
I would not read much into the primary or secondary aim- both aims can be equally important to the perpetrator. But I agree with this- Conflating child sexual abuse with forcible rape may not be helpful. with a significant rider-instead of csa I would like to put paedophilia.Csa and rape may have much in common.And that leads me to the conclusion that paedophilia and child sexual abuse are two different birds, not to say that they are always mutually exclusive.Now we need professionals,there is a limit to the discussion that we laymen can have.I will try to read up something on this and get back.

rahul_capri #127

This piece does not depict a kidnapping – torture – rape – murder scenario, where doing things against the victim’s will is often the primary aim. It describes more furtive activity, where the exercise of power might be the instrument rather than the objective. Conflating child sexual abuse with forcible rape may not be helpful.

I will speculate – once again, in total ignorance of statistics and scientific data – that pedophile sexual attraction is not fundamentally different from the sexual attraction that ‘normal’ people feel towards specific human types – physical forms, personalities, mental and emotional traits, etc. It’s just that the attraction happens to be towards the forbidden green fruit, rather than to the permitted riper variety. It is problematic in societies that recognise and value individual autonomy because minors are deemed to not be fully autonomous – they are supposed to be incapable of fully calculating the consequences of their own and other peoples’ actions, and held to lack the full strength of will needed to say no. A scenario like the one in this story would be unacceptable even if the child never felt fearful, anxious, traumatised, confused, even if she enjoyed her father’s attentions and later looked back on them without regret.

Re: # 127
Typically in situations of rape and abuse, it is something about the manifestation of power; the power that the perpetrator holds over the victim.What the victim feels is of no particular consequence, because care for the victims` feelings is anithetical to the notion of power.They may not enjoy the victims pain, but they will enjoy their helplessness, and in that sense they are sadists.

OSO #19

“Otherwise yes, this piece is mildly pronographic but also sickening.”

OSO #42, #58, etc.

OSO, you seem to have had an unusually intense reaction to this piece – you are not your usual debonair self. You clearly feel extremely strongly about this subject.

I’m interested in your opinion that this piece is pornographic. I say a piece has pornographic effect if it induces titillation, prurient desire, attraction towards the scene that it depicts, a wish perhaps to be an actor in a similar scene, to experience the same feelings as one of the protagonists. At the other extreme, a piece could be emetic, inducing feelings of disquiet, distress, revulsion, repulsion. The classification is subjective to the extent that it is determined by a particular individual’s responses. It is objective to the extent that it represents an average over a particular population.

I imagine that the hypothetical person of median sensual inclinations would find this piece emetic – those who commented on this board overwhelmingly found it disturbing. Now since it’s written from the point of view of the victim, describing her fear, distress and confusion, I’d suppose that it would make a person of pedophile inclinations uncomfortable – unless that person also delighted in inflicting pain and distress. Is that in fact the case with most pedophiles – i.e. are they also sadists? I honestly do not know – I am trying to get inside such a person’s cranium – but I would have guessed not.

I would surmise, in total ignorance of the science, that the typical non-violent pedophile would be cunningly manipulative and self-deluding by turns, concocting justifications for his behaviour and contriving to not see and foresee its effects, if necessary using threats to get his way; but not necessarily sadistic. He would not care for his image in the mirror that this piece holds up to him, therefore he would not find it pornographic. Am I wrong?

Re: # 124 & 125

were those outbursts really necessary? neither was shore`s earlier one, but i`ve read this again, and again, and all i see is pain, and fear, and revulsion, and confusion in this. how does this classify as pornography? or perhaps someone needs to remind me what the definition of pornography is? how is this story encouraging paedophilia? where is it doing so? is it here:

Please, Dear God, Save me! was all she could mutter in silent prayers with tears streaming down her cheeks. With the passing of time since the first encounter with him, he had grown bolder and more self assured and comfortable with her body. It was as if he wasn’t afraid of anyone, even God. He did whatever he wanted with her while her weak protests and screams were ignored and stifled by vague promises of his love.

does a description of someone forcing himself on a child encourage paedophilia? perhaps in their world, yes. but to many of us here who have read this, the women and the men, this is hardly titilating, we can distinguish between what is titilating and what is rape. what precedes this paragraph is her wish not to be touched anymore. again, if a pedophile were to read that, this will make no difference in his/her world. it will most likely reify the world he/she occupies, but if we read this as therapists, social workers, survivors of sexual abuse or physical/psychological abuse, and those who have never experienced such, as some of the interactors, would more than a few of us not recognize this as childhood sexual abuse. sara is not screaming and crying because she wants it. it is painful and her father doesn`t give a damn about her pain. some of the readers here, do.

this piece wasn`t written to entice paedophiles, --,,. if we have fictional stories about genocide, which also involve rape are those written to encourage genocidal maniacs and rapists? this is written rather simply yes, but the issues here are complex, and if you think that this does not serve the purpose of highlighting childhood sexual abuse, then you don`t. but stories written in this vein have been published before, and are not considered pornographic. this is a really depressing story, about a child who was made thoroughly confused as to what love from a parent is and once she hits puberty, realizes that her sister is about to be the recipient of that same ``love``. and this is a story which draws from the real world. you`ve made some really good points on this board. could you tell us what you mean by this being nothing but ``pornography for the paedophiles``?