The Ultimate Betrayal

Re: # 124
Congratulations on my psychoanalysis.
Thanks.
Now go Fuck yourself.
You are on ignore!

Re: # 100
so finally your so called liberal ass is itching...maybe you just got a pocketfull of crabs...no go hang yourself from the nearest yardarm.

Look at yourself : you are saying this is a story...go ahead and shout it out...then it is nothing but pornography for the paedophiles. And you are nothing but a pimp encouraging paedophilia.

And for your kind information, people in the US and the UK and many parts of this world have been ARRESTED FOR HAVING SUCH STORIES on THEIR HARDDRIVES. There was abig operation sometime back involving the FBI the Scotland Yard, and is still on going.

And you are not insulting me - you are insulting yourself by your ignorance of this particular fact. So dont get so uppity and shout. Learn to distinguish between a piece of fiction making a statement and a piece of pornography.

So dont become a pimp for paedophiles with your attitude.

HP:

With regards to the numbers comment:

Ana was kind enough to provide a link several posts ago, I’m re-pasting it here:

http://www.unescap.org/esid/hds/sexual/pakistan.pdf

Especially relevant are pages 13 and 14. Please keep in mind that more than half of the children didn’t disclose the relationship of their molesters. Now if you have trouble with the fact that the UN authored this study then that`s your prerogative.

This topic is not an easy one to discuss. I’m sure most of us are having trouble keeping our heads on straight at the mere thought of such abuse.

Statistics are fine and they can at a glance provide reassurance to us in a detached format. But we also know why these statistics don’t exist. Widespread studies of sexual abuse are simply not conducted in Pakistan. And when and if they are, the “survivors” are unlikely to be truthful either out of fear or just not knowing better.

But on the flip side statistics can also dehumanize serious issues like this one. How widespread does such abuse have to be before we consider it a problem? In my humble opinion, one girl or boy abused by a father or a brother is one too many.

A word about the value systems. If somebody makes a cursory glance of secular jurisprudence ,(not that it is labelled in this way, but just to differentiate from Islamic jurisprudence of Quran and Sunnah) , religion,custom,tradition and norms are actually the biggest source of laws. So, the basic mistake being made here is thinking of secular value system as totally exclusive from religion. Secular value systems are more concerned about equity, that is ironing out those aspects of religion from its canon that differentiate between followers of different religion or different sexes. So, it will more be concerned with the deltas rather than the core mesage of a religion, that is, if the core issue of a religion is not misogyny or differentiating from other religions.

mirium:

on another board i think we have exchanged our views ... me with emphasis on education and you with your macro-economis solutions...with regards to women`s empowerment... education not being a panacea to all that illsdesiland but as a first step in the uphil journey...and yes, i recall your example of grameen bank and the women lender`s abilty to pay back loans...

in the desi totem pole women are at the lowest rung...mullah-army-feudal-indutrail kakistocracy at the top...only with education and economic betterment will those groups at the bottom can ever hope to challenge the k(h)akistocrats
more power to mdg and other such bodies

khamy:
there is truth in your irreverence

nts:
you sir are irrelevant..to this discussion...

amrita:
sensible posts...

HP:
stats are welcome...but do you suggest we cannot discuss this without them?...the sexual abuse of the young wards in madresahs is well known and reported in the press....where are the pederasty stats?

ana:

labels noted...just a taste of their medicine back to them...no offence intended or meant to those not in them categories..

rgds

t

Nice article Sajal.Here is an article by Shandana on the same topic.
I think these are the following things that can be done(I have posted some links in the Shandana article)-
1- Currently laws regarding csa(In India) are not adequate. There is a lot of work that can be done in that direction.
2- Doctors/counsellors are not equipped well enough to handle csa victims.
3-Children are not well equipped enough to recognize csa,specially from a parent. It is very necessary for the state to step up here and make education by which a child can recognize abuse, compulsory.Or better, a question answer session with a child psychiatrist(and yes, as per #2, there aren`t enough of them) just like an yearly visit to the doctor should be in place.
4- Statistics collecting services should aggressively pursue and report such cases.

HP,

I think ``uncles`` are a good example of the kind of slipperiness of what you are trying to make neat and tidy.

Uncles who are friends of fams in some ways are as part of that fam`s fabric as blood uncles. The former are expected to be shown respect, treated like fam, participate in fam events, and of course, are trusted as fam...

Almost every desi woman I know has either been assaulted or knows someone in her immediate fam who has been assaulted by in a uncle.

In very god fearing middle class fams.

For all those who are thinking that child abuse is white man`s problem, you are absolutely wrong. With in a span of 2 weeks there was news in one of the online English news papers from Hyderabad (India) reported 2 cases where the girls father`s were abusing them. Incidentally in both the cases, the victim`s were muslim. It was reported in www.deccan.com. Wondering if anyone else read the same news? I cannot provide the links as the online news paper does not maintain archives section.

I read a similar case from UP. I read sometime back a wife killing her husband because he was sexually abusing the daughter after getting drunk ( he was hindu atleast from the name).

i am also intrigued (for lack of a better word) by the labelling that we`ve used here -- those of us who have questioned various posts are put in the ``liberal`` category, or the ``abdul-hates/insecuristas`` category, and there might be those of us in dialogue here who belong in neither, and who might just be a little bothered by such categorizations.

i have to give props to those who have enriched this dialogue by not falling into the trap of using these labels, and wanting more in terms of explanation from those who have. it is so much easier for us to make judgments, and judgment is unavoidable especially when it comes to the issues we`re discussing. we are not all going to be in agreement as to what this story represents, but the dialogue has been valid in terms of challenging ourselves to have intelligent discussions, and to remember that while some might not read this as child abuse, we should not lose perspective of those who have been in this situation and have suffered greatly because of it.

for me, personally, there is nothing in ``the ultimate betrayal`` that indicates pleasure on the part of the children, and much that indicates power and isolation on the part of shakeel: ``this is their special secret``, ``his professing to love her more than anything in the world.`` the paragraph which begins, ``please dear god, save me. . .`` this story is being told with the voice of a child, and the thoughts of a child, but in the paragraph i just mentioned, i notice a slight shift in voice, and wonder if this is still the voice of the child.

thank you all (or most of you) for making this discussion so informative and meaningful. shoresahib, i hope to communicate with you via email as soon as i get my 15 page paper and presentation out of the way. sajal, keep writing!

best,
--ana

#113 b
Saminasha

With utmost respect, well meaning “Uncles” don’t qualify for incestuous relationship. Child molestation may be. People just keep mixing up issues and throw fake numbers to prove their non existing point!

Child molestation is fairly common in every society but that to me is a different subject.

Re: # 110
HP - the girl in this story is a pre-pubescent daughter awaiting her father`s nocturnal visit with dread in her heart. She then gets her period and listens to her father shuffle into her little sister`s room.

This is CSA not adult consensual incest [which is a whole another story as you say]. Most people on this board are cognizant of the difference and have either mentioned that understanding specifically or have mentioned CSA when posting links.

Re:105

Mahashey Nt ``FAKE`` Syed,

The only smoke you are observing is the one you are blowing up my ass.

Have a nice life.

HP,

With all due respect, well meaning ``uncles`` are the most widespread and pervasive form of incest AND molestation in sa communities.

... i think you people... the `modern` ones are picking on urstruly, echoboom and nuttysyed just becoz they are mullahs or wannabe mullahs... it`s none of your goddamn business if they want to sleep with their daughters...

amrita,

policy, absolutely. But you as well as I know that misogyny is the most basic and ingrained form of discrimination within patriarchal cultures. (The West and East both)

In my one of my posts I asked whether there is any word for Incest in any subcontinent language. A few languages that I know pretty well don’t seem to address the issue of Incest and that can mean two things:
1. Incest either does not exist or it is such a minor problem that there is no word for it in the Subcontinent lexis.
2. People wanna gloss over the issue as it can legitimately tear the society apart.

I think child molestation and incest are closely related yet entirely separate issues. Child molestation is no doubt a serious crime but it impacts the individuals affected by it. Incest can bring down the whole family. Adult incest is too heinous a crime and it would be a major effort to discuss it without losing sanity. The reality is that consenting adults in an incestuous relationship can only draw scorn form the community and I believe that the law would be completely helpless there.

I think incest is not a huge issue in the subcontinent or at least in Pakistan. With such closely knit family structure, a father sleeping in a daughter’s room would raise huge eyebrows. Before we talk about daughter’s room, how many in Pakistan have separate rooms for daughters? A very tiny percentage has this option and that percentage is well aware of social responsibilities and boundaries when it comes to relationship with daughters and sisters.

If I may say so here the major problem in Pakistan is parent having sex in the same room where their children are sleeping too. From big cities to small villages a good portion of population has access to only one room for all family members to sleep. In situation like this, a father daughter incest is pretty much out of the question but little kids watching their parents having sex is a huge possibility and to me a major problem.

Why authors from Pakistan, who, I am sure, are aware of our social and economic structure chose to ignore a real problem of our society and instead concentrate on some thing which is mostly an issue in the West and that too on a web forum that is visited by only people from the subcontinent?

There are no stats to prove that father daughter or brother sister incest is a major issue in Pakistan as it is not, and people trying to mix stats from child moletation to incest are clearly clouding the issue because of their ignorance our own culture.