The Ultimate Betrayal

Miriam,

The effort has to be many pronged and at all levels.

The example of African Americans is interesting because, as you know, enslaved people from very specific African communities were not considered human, or considered subhuman. The philosophical framework on which the system of slavery operated was based on the idea that the minds, abilities, bodies and capacities of black people were not as developed as white euros, or developed differently than white euros. That apparently was enough for antebellum North America.

I`m sure that reasoning sounds familliar to some of us.

miriam, samina, t, ana, shore, dotty et al – just to regroup…

two issues then - child abuse in `des` and child abuse in the diaspora.

And two things dont change much in either - the harm to the child and the culture of silence in both communities.

Generally when we talk of the diaspora we are talking of those settled in the west (1)and these are people whose disconnect/denial/blindness occurs within societies that are used to a more free debate on the issue as compared to the home country [India or Pakistan]. However, there are lots of south Asians who live in countries that are economically more advanced (2) than south asia but have a similar attitudes to things like child abuse [denial/ disconnect/ blindness]. Then we have the home country which is relatively free of all discourse on the subject (3).

Each of these situations demands a different approach.

In (1), the problem is to relate the larger discourse to the specific community. In (2), you’re going to have to deal with the predominant culture and the specific community. In (3), you have the root of the whole thing.

If one can successfully bring the issue to the notice of the public and convince them that this indeed can happen [you’d be surprised – or maybe you wouldn’t – to see the number of people who refuse to believe a parent or a relative could sexually abuse a child] then that’s a significant part of the battle.

Secondly, solutions – well, the empowerment of women has a lot to do with it, no doubt. The areas that Dotty points out in his post as examples where female empowerment has worked are areas where women are definitely much better off than they were a couple of generations ago. Places like Gujarat where the so-called White Revolution changed the economics of the region or the work of organizations like SEWA or even adult literacy programs have helped whole families if not entire communities.

But does financial freedom or literacy mean that these women are suddenly unsusceptible to patriarchal structures? I don’t think so. I think they are less dependant but that’s about it. I think NGOs like the one featured by Outlook – the link is below in my post to Kaalchakra – have a role to play as well. They have a role to play because the “authorities” by which I mean law and government officials are not doing the job and these kinds of organizations are the only ones on the ground and in the thick of things. And the authorities will continue to sit on their hands as long as there isn’t a heightened public awareness of the subject.

I don’t see the solution coming from just one direction – I think a number of people and groups need to work together if you want to see some lasting change in attitudes.

This work of fiction has multidimensional message. IMO, it is perfectly legitimate to discuss all dimensions. The author may have a just few issues to highlight but readers may find many other things to discuss in the story and I don’t quite understand why some friends are upset about it.

I can see at least the following to discuss in this story:
1. Incest
2. Child Molestation.
3. Family relations
4. The background of the story
5. Value systems that determine unusual and unacceptable behavior
Let’s not forget the technical merits of this story.
6. Critique a literary work.
7. Anything else that would evolve during the discussions.

People would critique or question the article from their own area of interest. Some have interests in sociological issues and other worry about the literary merits of the story.
This type of work of fiction can belong to several categories. With just a few changes, this story can be easily placed on a queer site. The concern that the story has shades of child pornography is not totally unfounded and anxiety expressed by a poster is perfectly legitimate. The argument for providing some links to actual research on the subject is valid.

http://www.unescap.org/esid/hds/sexual/pakistan.pdf

this is a report from 2001, i believe, and deals with CSA and exploitation in pakistan. people will have problems with the fact that this report is generated by a UN agency or with the terminology of this report, but it cannot be so readily dismissed. it is a 41 page report, but if anything should come out of this, it is that CSA is something we cannot ignore, or sweep under our doormats and carpets.

someone mentioned ``monsoon wedding`` here, and i remember when it came out, there were quite a few desi friends, most of whom are women, who could not understand why the molestation story even needed to be there. how did it fit in with the rest of the story? but when you see that mira nair sought verisimilitude, that she sought to make this a representation of a punjabi family involved in a wedding, it does not seem so strange for this thread to emerge. what is unfortunate is that in questioning the appropriateness of the story, we don`t want to address the issue of child molestation. miriam makes an interesting point about culture/honor/religion preservation. there are other instances where not only child molestation, but the abuse of our elderly in our communities has come up, and there are those who say, ``oh but this doesn`t really happen in our community.``

denial and isolation are huge in addressing such issues in our diasporic communities, and back ``home``.

#85 by ShoreSahib on May 28, 2005 8:25am PT

ye bachcha zaroor huqqay ki chillum pe baith k cigar p raha hoga....jubhe to is k ro`en ro`en se dhuwan uth`ta hai.....lol


#86 by miriamk on May 28, 2005 8:30am PT

Nice tangent/diversion by the way! :).

No tangent there, dear sister. I`m just trying to keep it light here. Sorry if my breathing disturbed you.

I don`t know about anyone else, but I`m not playing any games as you`ll read below.


#90 by temporal on May 28, 2005 9:14am PT

hmmmmmm...Hey Bubba, (or do you prefer, babe??), what I see here (from yours and other so-called liberals` posts) is that you and ``co-league of your own`` (SS), as per someone on another board (and I won`t name any names), and others have not even been able to answer the simplest of questions.

Thus, are...hmmm....let me see....

insecuristas - insecure about his/her world view, mental outlook, physical self, who froth easily, provoke unnecessarily, have deep seated complexes camouflaged with righteous indignation, think s/he knows the value of everything when in reality s/he knows only the price, henpecked, in lousy relationships with their spouse and children, and a menace and a danger to themselves if left untreated.

Nice try, t....but sorry, no cigar for you this time :-)~~

Would you like tea, coffee, chusni, or formula in a fancy feeder though? lol

Thanks for the definition...it saved me a few keystrokes ;-)~~



Mind you all, I could allow you to drag me into this, but

1- I didn`t post the question; just appreciate it, and await an answer from the intended audience which doesn`t include me

2- I don`t want to tag-team you, because ...umm...y`all `re gonna be in a ``lota`` trouble...get it, ``lota``?........lol

3- I don`t want my mullah ``Yoda-ish wisdom`` to influence your ``liberlized`` thought processes as you`d probably experience a revulsion at the bursting of your bubble, as per your historical patterns. But then again, you`re experiencing it anyway.....so enjoy it.....lol

4- I`m swamped with professional workload, so I`m just trying to keep it light for myself

Y`all can jeer if y`all want, but it ain`t gonna getcha nothin` as far as this board is concerned.

Meanwhile from this part of the world,

Cheers & good night.

:-)~~

Temporal jee, Samina jee:

Regarding this same issue in desi lands. One of the Millennium Development Goals (MDG) (to be accomplished by 2015) is that of increasing gender equality and empowering women. I think dotty also pointed out empowering women through education.

But I’ve got to tell you, I am an economist by profession and have worked in several disenfranchised communities and the reality is, there is a problem of access (both economic and social). It’s almost unimportant how that lack of access came about (i.e in the African-American community as a result of a slave culture or for SA women as a result of a patriarchal culture). All that matters is that it exists.

It`s easy enough to say let`s educate women and empower them but how do you accomplish that in a culture which asserts it`s patriarchy at any cost? Creating access for these women is the central issue and how does one do that?

The MDG were a hope to increase this discussion on access and come up with cooperative solutions and commitments but they are extremely behind schedule for many of the same problems we experience on these boards (i.e. ideological/cultural/etc differences).

Samina jee
#92, #93

You are absolutely right. Victim is not an adequate term, survivor is. The latter is much more empowering.

As far as the South Asian diasporic communities are concerned and making the orgs you mentioned a mainstream part of the culture: one of the repeated stumbling blocks I have encountered as a volunteer (and I am sure anyone else who as worked with the SA community in any capacity) is there isolation from the community at large.

They create a microcosm of the home country with all its gender divides and patriarchal power structures. The main goal is culture/religion preservation not the best interest of a daughter or a son. As you mentioned yourself the dichotomy of stigma/honor is self-perpetuating and adds fuel to the silence and denial.

How does one counteract that? Awareness through outreach perhaps. Making them feel safe enough to come forward maybe. And most of all somehow making them understand that a girl’s/woman’s virginity is not synonymous with her honor. At the end of the day I guess it`s really about changing ideas founded in a patriarchy.

Re: # 101
Dear Ana,
My sentiments exactly, but Dotty has mentioned the same thing in atleast 3 posts. It is getting irritating. I am sure the facts and figures would add a great deal to the discussion. Why does Dotty not include them, and enrich the dialogue further, rather than criticizing the writer and the editorial staff.

shoresahib #100:

i think --,, does mean well here. but i question the responsibility he heaps entirely on the writer and the editorial staff. sajal has done nothing wrong in telling the story of what happens in one home, but in telling this story, she has touched upon something that affects more than just that fictional home, and it is our responsibility as well as perceptive readers to talk about the issues, as we have been, and to talk about how our community is impacted by this, and if someone wants to provide figures, it is going to widen our discourse, and there`s nothing wrong with that. . .

Re: # 91
Ok. Are you slow or just plain Stupid. Believe me I am not trying to insult you.
Read my words Carefully,

THIS IS A STORY< A WORK OF FICTION>
IT IS INTENDED TO BRING ATTENTION TO AN ISSUE.
IT IS NEITHER PORNOGRAPHIC, NOR TITTILATING.
IT DOES NOT NEED FACTS AND FIGURES BECAUSE IT IS FICTION.
IT IS A STORY, A WORK OF FICTION.


I HOPE YOU GET IT AND GET OFF THE FRIGGING FACT AND FIGURE BANDWAGON.

IF YOU ARE ITCHING SO MUCH, WHY THE F**k DONT YOU ADD SOME AND ENLIGHTEN ALL OF US.

OR BETTER YET,

WRITE YOUR OWN DAMN STORY AND INCLUDE FACTS AND FIGURES.

ALLAH KI PANAH
TOBA

sammi # 98:

...there are many worlds:)

the most important one is the child`s..the abused sexual vicitms...let`s forget if it was incest or sexual abuse...

the child...s/he would be the first part
the immediate family/guardians the second part
and agencies/organisations/institutions the third part

concerned adults who support, work, volunteer, raise funds/or consciousness re: the abusal issues and help the victims etc would be an extension of this third part

tbhai,

i actually think there are two kinds of parallel universes/realities operating in communities based on denial. There is of course the world of appearance/performance where all actors play their roles of ma/baap/beta/beti/aunty/uncle/etc. and then the world in which the reality of sexual abuse occurs. The abuser and survivor move in between both worlds-they are both split in between these two spheres of interaction.

I also think as someone else pointed out, that fam members-adults anyway-are aware of what is happening. In my opinion, they are as complicit as the abuser. They are aware of both worlds but are able to ignore the second level/abuse.

Finally, and Shore Sahib can clarify/correct this, abuse is predicated on isolation and silence. It is absolutely impossible when each member of a community is not protected by power, status, supporters, complicit parties.

#95 the only thing which will take this forward is not NGO or social work. The key is to empower women. The only way to do it is to make them truly independent economically, and to educate them (literacy will not do). Nothing else. Forget the rest. There are a number of cases where the woemn have led from the front and changed the situation - like bringing in prohibition, ensuring that their daughters became educated etc in countries like India, bangladesh, indonesia etc. Those places have witnessed a revolution of sorts. This revolution didnot do away with religion, infact reinforced it in some cases. But brought about real positive benefits to the quality of life of the women, and as a result the children.

After this you can start to filter the real weirdos as they do in the civilised society and helpthese weirdos overcome themselves.

shoresahib:

it does take great courage indeed, it has on your part as well. and you know i`ve never said that i was molested, because my siblings interrupted what he might have done, but that feeling of fear, of total unawareness, and that memory, and especially the aftermath have stayed with me.

i also wanted to respond to what you said about the poster who talks about girls getting pregnant at the age of eight or nine. i remember being in lahore as an adolescent, and my cousin and i talking about some tabloidish news about a nine-year old getting pregnant and how completely ``unnatural`` that seemed to us. the fact is that there are obviously huge differences physiologically between children and adults. . . and rapid development of children anatomically or physiologically is not necessarily a good thing. but that is also what is so very disturbing, the fact that everychild is not even fully developed or equipped, physically, mentally, emotionally to KNOW, to really know what is involved when a parent fondles them and has sex with them. children are told not to talk to strangers, that if a stranger should touch them in a certain way, that it is wrong, but then a parent does the very same thing a stranger should not do, and what impact does this have psychologically on a child?

many bequeath ``adulthood`` far too quickly to children and have done so since time immemorial, but there are those who will prefer someone`s lack of development to exert their power and control and their desires on him/her and that is something that surpasses the narrow framework in which some want to place the issues this story addresses.

sam:

kudos for the efforts of agencies here...

the bigger problem remains in desi lands...what with stigma, honour, coupled with lack of agencies/organisational to help...in the story i and syke mentioned the trauma/abuse sufferers actually declined to come forward and be helped...

... and then there are other studies that indiciate that quite a few times it is these victims who later perpetuate the horrors later...

lve

t

and boy children, as well.