The Ultimate Betrayal

slan #347: Your point is valid.

These are all complex social issues, with complex interlinkages. In some cases, the solution for one, ends up creating a problem for the other. This makes it impossible to discuss a simultaneous solution, if all are jumbled in together..........This is what is happening in this discussion.........

I don`t have statistics, but I would think that incest is more common amongst step-fathers than real biolgoical fathers. If that is the case, then divorce, and how it is handled has to be looked at, as well. Personally speaking, I have always felt that children should go to the mother, after a divorce. Until she gets re-married. At which point, the daughters should go to the original biological father (unless there is some specific reason to keep them away from him).

in southasian settings are more conducive to child molestation, as public physical display of afffection towards children is an acceptable norm, not so in the west. no uncle (aunties are somehow allowed) dare hug a child. add to that all the stuff kids in western school are taught like dont let anyone touch you.

Sajal #various: The statistics you have presented are interesting. I don`t think most people (including me) would have been aware of the numbers.........

I think you may have created too much complexity in this story, and left out too much information, for people to analyze the problem and the solutions, accurately. For starters, you never mentioned the age of the child. Nor the country she is living in. In addition, you seem to have, for some reason, started of with an indication that she was enjoying it and had no issues with it, initially. And you mixed all of this with incest. The only thing that could have created more confusion was if Sara were a boy and not a girl

I think it would be better, if incest part was separated from the child sexual molestation part. Both these are separate issues.

So if we set aside incest, and just look at CSM, then the age of the character and location is an important factor. The reason I say this is that all of the solutions have to be based on the legal system of the country. Not on personal feelings of what is sick and what is not......

Secondly, the way to deal with CSM is not after the fact. It is before the fact. Once a child has been molested, most of the battle is lost. The damage has been done. All the communication in the world is not going to fix the problem. It can, at best, lessen it.

The solution lies in figuring out ways that it does not occur. The basis of that is a strict legal system and a clear definition of what is right and what is wrong. The second part is not too easy to do, and I think some of the legal systems of the world are moving in directions, which may go against the definition of right and wrong of various people on this site.

After that, figuring out what motivates people to commit the crime. What are the factors that lead to this. I am not a psychologist, but I have discussed this in detail with one or two. Apparently, people who have been molested as children, themselves, can turn to become molestors. Your statistics point in that direction. Perhaps Shankar could provide more info.........

Also, is CSM a crime of sex or is it, like rape, actually a crime of power?

No one can protect their children 24 hours a day. The solution to this lies at a sociological level..........

Re: # 344
if i may pointout,there is a deep relation between CSA and incest.That is the incresed access that the perpeterator has over the victim.This is important in terms of both the quantity and the quality(unsuspected by othe family members)of the access.
once again at the risk of being accused of starting a spin i will like to add something here.Consider this story in the back drop of a divorced couple say on grounds of adultery,alcoholism, neglect etc etc(by either sex-dont want to start of another debate!!).Doesnt that change the whole picture?-The mother is not there to protect or listen to maryam.Shakeel might have developed his perversion beacuse of sex starvation(not that it justifies his behaviour)
I find it hilarious when some posters on this board try to dissect a topic and adress only a part there off.Social issues are all interlinked and the need to understand links is vital in adressing them.
When I talked about homosexuality or adult incest,my purpose was to highlight the direction that the society is headed in,and this is all important in the context of the topic in discussion

Ana,

thankyou for your well wishes,

If incest occurs with a child who is a minor and therefore under the age of consent, it is not just incest but child sexual abuse as well, as far as my understanding goes. The problem is not just incest or CSA rather an undertanding on child hood sexual abuse perpetrated by anyone.
There needs to be more awareness that it exists and measures taken to protect our children rather than keep believing that it does not exist.
Incest with a child is just a facet of child sexual abuse and needs to be addressed, understood and measures taken for the safeguard of the children.

Re: # 339

Dionysus - the article will still be around for a few more days... looking forward to your replies.

oof, i meant in my last sentence to say that incest IS childhood sexual molestation, but hopefully you got that sajal.

sajal,

i do hope that you recover soon from your surgery. . . and hope that it wasn`t too serious. :)

baat ye hai, i wonder if we should say that incest IS childhood sexual molestation, rather than childhood sexual molestation is a painful facet of incest? the incest taboo aside, i think a large part of the debate here has been arguing for incest as being a reality of certain people`s existence, and ignoring the issue of childhood sexual molestation altogether. and when we have spoken of incest as childhood sexual molestation, we have ignored the difference. no matter how we personally feel about incest -- revulsion, disgust, denial because our parents, siblings should play the roles we`ve decided they should play on this world stage, as parents, siblings, and friends, but not lovers. and this denial of allowing incest in our own lives has much to do with being part of an ethical world which has been in existence before the great religions, a world that has been shaped by both. i wonder if we should say that incest IS childhood sexual molestation, because incest happens between adults as well, and two adults who choose to do it in spite of the taboo, and the world that surrounds them?

i`m not articulating myself very well here. . . but the intent is not to divorce them from each other, just to point out that CSA has been completely ignored by many by saying that it IS incest. . .

HP #334 I agree that seeing things through the religious (or any other ideological) prism distorts our understanding of reality. We are nevertheless stuck with the need to distinguish between right vs. wrong.

This is where common sense comes in. Common sense tells us that incest is wrong (contrary to the muddle-headed romair`s rationalizations). Just as common sense tells us that eating rotting flesh is wrong. Killing or maiming innocent people is wrong (contrary to the mullah philosophy that calls for chopping off hands and necks).

The reason these things are wrong goes far deeper than ``religious ideology``, imho. It is based on 4 billion years of life on earth, the wealth of experience thus gained being reflected in our very genes. This experience is what we call ``common sense``.

All I have been harping about on chowk all these years is that the Quran ALSO places clear responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL (NOT the ummah, not the damned maulvi, and not some damned pir) to use his/her common sense to distinguish between right and wrong.

It is this common sense that is notably absent in the muslim world.

Re: # 332 Amrita

Dear Amrita, what makes you think I follow any religion? The article is about to go off the front page now so you`ve successfully managed to evade Urstruly`s questions. But at the end of the day the loss is only your own.

These ar some figures I found, I dont know how accurate they are:

According to a study released in 1997 by the Sakshi Violence Intervention Centre, based on a survey done with 350 school girls in New Delhi, India:

* 63% of the girls had experienced child sexual abuse at the hands of family members.
* 25% of the girls had either been raped, forced to masturbate the perpetrator, or forced to perform oral sex.
* early one-third of the girls said the perpetrator had been a father, grandfather or male friend of the family.

In a 1999 report by the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, a study done in 1994 and 1995 with 150 minor-age girls in Bombay, India showed:

* 58 of the girls surveyed had been sexually abused before age 10.
* Of this number, 50 had been abused by a family member or friend of the family.
http://www.shaktiproductions.net/isa_stats.html

I did not find any figures on ``Sahil`` which is working in Pakistan on child sexual abuse.

``Sahil is the only organization in Pakistan that works exclusively on the issue of child sexual abuse and exploitation. Our work involves research, awareness raising, legal advocacy, intervention training, crisis intervention, free legal and medical aid for victims, publications and the resource center.``

Sahil was established in 1996 as an NGO, to ensure the protection of children.
As stated in Article 34 of Child Rights Convention (CRC)
``State parties undertake to protect the child from all forms of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse.``

a) Drug Abuse and CSA in Street Children

This study was carried out with one hundred and eighty street children from Rawalpindi, Islamabad, Peshawar, Karachi and Quetta. The sample was taken from Federal capital and all the four provincial capitals.

The objective of the study was to assess the plight of street children, who are all the time at the mercy of their circumstances; to see the traumatic causes for using drugs; and to know whether they are the victims of sexual abuse and need any help to prevent it.

The study results showed that 78% of the street children are sexually abused. The results also show that there is a direct relation ship between drug abuse and CSA, as 53% of the children use drugs before getting sexually abused. While the other 47% use drugs after this heinous crime. According to these respondents drug use helps them to overcome the trauma of CSA.

Sahil published this research in its quarterly magazine: July- September 2003 issue.

b) Male prostitution in Pakistan and its relationship with child sexual abuse

This study was carried out with 100 male prostitutes from Lahore, Rawalpindi and Islamabad.

The objective of the study was to uncover the relationship of male prostitution with CSA.

Findings of the study show that 90% of the prostitutes were sexually abused in their childhood and this incident contributed in their decision of selecting this profession.

The most startling information revealed from this study was that 26% of the respondents personally abused children and 74% became pimps.

http://www.sahil.org/index.htm

I appreciate everybody reading and posting their valuable comments on this post.

Ana:
I didn`t disappear and I apologize for not writing earlier. I just had surgery and am still recuperating.

As to everyone who wants facts and figures in the article, as I said earlier it is a story therefore there are no facts available. I wrote this piece just to express the relationship, and the turmoil and confusion it creates for a little girl and to shed some light on the taboo subject of incest.

Incest is child sexual molestation, it is more harmful because the victim is forced to face the abuser day in and day out with no escape out of the situation.

Some have argued consent....... for what? For the young child to say, yes Dear Abbu, I am ready, lets have sex!!!! You must be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can I protect my child from sexual abuse?

This is what we need to tell our children:

1) Communicate, communicate, communicate.
2) Speak to your children using the proper names for their body parts. Armed with information, children are better able to report abuse to you.
3) Teach your children about safe and unsafe touches, as well as what is appropriate physical affection.
4) Let your children know that respect for elders doesn`t extend to an adult that has made your child uncomfortable. It`s OK to say no and it`s OK to leave the situation.
5) Trust your own instincts. If your instincts tell you something is wrong, follow-up.

The only way we can protect our children whether it be boys or girls from sexual exploitation is acknowledging that it happens.

the spin-doctors here know exactly what they were doing. they were not interested in discussing childhood sexual abuse AT ALL. what they wanted was to get into a debate about defining what is aberrant behavior and what is not. . . they wanted to point out to us that one cannot be seen as such ``behavior`` and not the other. no one here has denied a link to homosexuality and incest, but the spinners (yes, i am aware that even i am using labels) want excuse the term ``black & white`` answers here, they want these two issues to fit into one very nice category, and these issues don`t. which is why what is good for the goose should be good for the gander as well doesn`t really work here.

abusing ``liberals``, and having such failure of the imagination as to keep referring to them as loony, loonier, looniest is not going to get one very far, and neither is attacking those ``of faith``. either way, what has lost out here for the most part, is what temporal keeps referring to, it is the pain and confusion and the tears of a child. . . over so-called human beings wanting to prove themselves as being in the right and the ``loonies`` in the wrong (and vice-versa). and it hasn`t been completely lost, because there are some who are still talking about childhood sexual abuse here, and how to stop it from happening. in which case, the failure of the imagination in regards to derailing the focus from damaged children and damaged people has been noted. some of us do care about how what some parents would consider to be acceptable ``love`` has affected their children. and we hope that you do too.

adios.

Beej:
#304

“cruel and unusual punishment”

What are you, the point man for ACLU!?

“….it’s time you stop thinking that the standards of law enforcement practiced in Saudi Arabia are being eagerly awaited with outstretched arms by the rest of the world!”

You sir, are a killjoy!. There’s just no nice way to say this :).

Us lowly grad students have precious little fun as it is without having to deal with reality checks thank you very much.

But seriously, on January 1 1996 California mandated the law for 2nd time offenders. Others have followed but not mandated it I think.

Speaking of Saudi Arabia that’s exactly where we should ship the sickos off. I bet my
friends there won’t think chemical castration is ``cruel and unusual``.

#326
tahmed,

It is not a matter of Looney this or Looney that. The issue is how you look at the problems in any given society. The conventional approach is to find a religious, dogmatic or inhuman solution such as lashes and sangsaar and sub ko aik lathi say haank doo. The liberal and of course level headed approach is to understand the problem and tailor a solution based on facts and take a case by case approach.

Societies have not stopped progressing since the last Prophet of God. Everything is moving forward and for the last hundred years or so, it is moving at a breathtaking pace. When things change so fast, people who think about solutions sometimes do make mistakes but at least they continue to work towards correcting errors and helping the society.

The rigidity in dealing with human problems- that is advocated by the other side- does not solve problems but actually aggravates it. It is very easy to say that religions supported outlawing incest but religions provided no framework for stopping it all together or somehow eliminating it. No religion ever provided any help to the victims of incest. In fact, religions did not even suggest any way of punishing the guilty party or the child molester except for stoning the heck out of everyone who was involved in any perceived sexual crime.

The question is; can we in this day or age stone or lash people out of their existence for any crime? Yes! in Pakistan where the army would lash every political opponent or the Sugar hoarder but would never lash the mullah caught sodomizing little kids in his maddrassa. We can do that in Saudi Arabia, where peoples hands have been chopped off for petty stealing.

Do we want any society be it Pakistani, Indian, or the US to take that route?
That is the fundamental difference between the Liberals and the real freaks!
I will refrain from calling these freaks conservative, because conservatives understand social issues and often support pragmatic solutions.

Jang #330: ``it IS legal in most countries if between consenting adults. only marriage is not legal.``

I didn`t know this. I always thought it was illegal; specifically when it comes to brother/sister, father/daughter etc. Do you have any references. I checked on the Internet, and it seems to indicate that it is illegal.........

mariamk #329: If you trace back the strengths, weaknesses, faults and virtues of any society, they will eventually lead back to the legal system. The reason people don`t speak out in certain societies isn`t because they don`t want justice. It`s because they know they will never get justice, and thus it becomes pointless for them to publicize the event. However, it countries where people know they will get justice, they are willing to publicize the event.

The former creates a culture where it becomes counter-productive to publicize the event. However, under an efficient legal system, this will change.......