The Ultimate Betrayal

I`m a 13 year old Pakistani American boy. My parents are divorced and I live with my dad.

I see him on this website all the time, and he says it`s a good place to meet PAMs. So, I`ve decided pop in.

Since you guys are debating child abuse, I have a small question.

You see, being a single parent my dad often brings his females friends home. It doesn`t matter on weekends, because I usually visit my friends then. But on the school days, it bothers me too much. I don`t like most of the women he brings home because I have to hear their stupid laughs instead of my mom`s.

In the last two years I`ve learned to live with that. But I can`t handle the noise from bedroom or living room or bathroom when they`re having sex.

I don`t want to go to the CPS, because I`m afraid they`ll put me in a foster home and I`ll lose my father too. Although, sometimes I wish he was dead. He`s a nice guy and good father too, I guess. But sometimes his drinking and having noisy sex with his gfs while I`m missing my mom makes me want to either kill them or myself.

Please tell me what should I do?

I see some of you guys talk about Allah, and some of you hate Him. But I have no one and nothing. And I don`t understand the secularism either.

Please tell me how I can be a normal 13 year old?

bye

Hellooo Dio ji

How are you and where have you been?
You land up on this site after ages and then start firing on all sides. What happened. You were never too keen earlier on religious issues and here you are showing your sourness too explicitily. Were you brushing up your religious knowledge during the break you had from chowk? Please bring back that old nice, gentle dio whose only agenda was saving Kashmiris and counting numbers of those who died because of Great Indian presence there.
Come on now! Smile and tell how many kashmiris have suffered because of Indian forces inclination towards perverted kind of sex?

But seriously, stop using bad language for people who are concerned about children safety. Issue being discussed here is serious as well as revolting. So please don`t mix up with other less revolting issues. Mind you I have stated less revolting and not non revolting. So, don`t try any of your wisecracks on this.

Now for a change, just relax and say hello like a well mannered person.

dotty, you are an even bigger idiot than temporal. I am not equating ANYTHING. You are unable to read english and/or are extremely stupid. Liberalism is a system thought. I want to understand how a system of thought that permits, in fact celebrates, homosexuality views incest between consenting adults. And I want to understand why, too.

If you can answer the question please do. Otherwise stop cheerleading the looney liberals. They already have enough cheerleaders without you joining in and it isn`t doing them any good. And it makes you look like such a sad fuddu.

#312 is it an issue about two consenting incestual adults or one of child molestation (incestual or otherwise)?

Between two consenting adults who cares where they are both men, women, man-woman, related or not - do you? I dont and couldnt careless.

But when one party is a kid as in man-boy, woman-boy, man-girl, woamn-girl, then it is something to think about....you dionysus are trying to equate two unequal things. The spin you are trying to apply is silly and visible to all.

This spin is making you lose your Credibility So Fast, that it makes Light look like a bleeding tortoise!

amrita #309 ``I was beginning to get really bored with this board until a guy called ``Dionysus`` showed up to argue on the side of the conservatives!!! LOL!!! Irony is alive and well, I see.``


I`m full of surprises. Now why don`t you surprise me by answering the freaken question. I hope you realize you are losing crediblity fast.

and so after 310 interacts people are still dicussing whether to screw a baby is right or wrong.

Are you people sick or something? Think you really need to check in with a shrink. This is way beyond just rhethoric and debate. This from a bunch of people who claim to be fathers or soon to be fathers. God bless you all. My god! A clear indication that many are wrapped.

310 interacts, and we still wonder ...

hamidm2: “……Order, order! (banging the gavel on his knee for an instant jerk)”

temporal: “yoohoo, Mr. Bailiff? Please bring some udders for QJ hamidm2. He`s horny...err...I mean, hungry”

”pronto please”

rgds

lve

t

tahmed32: “t bhai, he’s busy doing something with the sandpaper”

hamidm2: “…….what’s that for bailiff?”

Bailiff: “sir, thasma re-useable toilet paper……I can’t use water, ‘cuz it’s the mullah stuff. Quite frankly, I like this heavy guage `un, ‘cus I kin use it for otha pappasus too, if ya know whota mean”

hamidm2: “…..let’s proceed………shakeel mian, do you understand you’re being charged with two counts of incest with your two daughters?”

Shakeel: “hey, I’m a secular. I don’t need no-goddamn-body to tell me such simple things”

hamidm: “…….sir, you need to mind your language in this court….just because we vilify religions, gods, prophets et al, it doesn’t mean we’re “uncivilized”….besides, we have to compile a dictionary of your profanities before we can allow you to use those words”
…..so, why did you commit incest with your daughters?........ Don’t you know it’s a quote NO NO unquote? ........That it’s wrong to have sex with your own daughters?``

temporal: “nice one sir”

tahmed32: “definitely! I love your directness, sir”

Shakeel: “why is it wrong to have sex with my own daughters?”

hamidm2: “…..shakeel mian, because for one thing she’s your own child….a part of you, for crying out loud….then she’s a child…..thirdly, at her age, her consent doesn’t count, even if she had consented….”

Shakeel: “says who? I don’t need no thunder in the clouds or a goddamn scripture or an old man in 7th century Arabia to tell me what’s wrong and what’s right!”

hamidm2: “……..we don’t care about those either……..but as adults with professional degrees and jobs, we just know that it’s wrong……..”

Shakeel: “okay, if not the holy scriptures, then who died and made you the authority on ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ and ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’. I have my own definition of these. Who are you to say I`m wrong?”

hamidm2: “....only a moron would ask a question like that……..”

tahmed32: “yeah, only a moron”

Shakeel: “for a whole bunch of people, you`re the morons to say what you say?”

hamidm2: “….shakeel mian, I see where you’re going with this……..ask the social workers, NGOs, child psychologists, gynecologists, criminologists, statistician….they’ll all tell you that it’s wrong…..………it hurts them physically, traumatizes them emotionally, and if there’s pregnancy, then the gene pool gets messed up….again, they’re your own children – a part of you and your wife….”

Shakeel: “oh BULLOCKS! It`s none of your business what happens me kids or me genes.

1. None of your goddamn physicians can prove that they were physically hurt, because they’re not.

2. None of your psychologists can prove that the “revulsion” she felt was due to my actions. She may very well have had PMS. Since it was her PMS, she couldn’t describe the feeling. It couldn’t have been fear and anxiety because we had been doing it for years, and as sajal pointed out in her report: ‘she had gotten used to making out with me…and grown confident about her body. She knew THAT feeling!

3. Your criminologists can’t prove that I’ve hurt anyone.

4. I don’t believe your statistics; fer`all I know they could`ve been cooked up in the kitchen at Hooters

5. It’s my and my daughters’ private business, and we have a right to do whatever we want as long as the others in the community are not harmed.

6. Last but not least, if they are part of me and my wife – the embodiment of the two of us, then making out with our daughters is just as good as making out with myself or with my wife at any time, place, and in any manner I want.

You’re acting worse than mullahs on this matter”. At least they quote a Supreme Being to justify their antics. You don`t even have that. No frikkin` meaningful mandate whatsoever.

temporal: “sir, the majority of the people decided in the congress and senate that it’s wrong :)

regds

lve

t”

Shakeel: “ohhh…the ones some people put in there during elections, huh?

You mean in this community of nuclear families of average two adults and two minors per family, roughly only 50% of the population is eligible to vote.

Out of those 50%, only 50% vote ‘yea’ or ‘nay’.

Then even if you guys won by a landslide, that makes it 25% of people deciding the behavior and fate of the rest of 75%.

But if you won by 1% - then 13% of the population decides the fate of rest of 87%.

Not to mention, 50% are ineligible to vote; thus have no say whatsoever

25% of eligible voters did not vote for any reason. They could`ve been sick or dying; so they`re royally screwed in the backside

and then 12% said ‘nay’; despite their efforts for a democratic society and freedom and everything, they get the short end of the stick

and now the three of you are tryina take away me rights on myself and me children.

What kinda fairness and justice is that?

I don’t care what others say. I have me own priorities, and I have the right to pursue them…goddamn it. That`s what I signed up for when I asked for secularism, `cos I don`t need no bloody one tellin` me what to do”

temporal: “sir, your opinion is irrelevant in this matter”

Shakeel: “the hell it is”

hamidm2: “temporal mian, you’re disrupting a landmark trial here…”

temporal: “Aap tp naraz ho rahay ho yaar…..let’s see what we can do to help these people, even if they don`t want it from us”

tahmed32: “only a moron needs to use logic to prove his case.......hunh”

Shakeel: “SHUT UP, you monkeys would shut up if you knew what`s good for ya!”

temporal: “Sir, we’re not monkeys, okay?

We’re “Royal langoors”….err….I meant, “Loyal Recruits”, for the freedom of speech and everything else….. samjhay app?

And we were elected by majority, so what if only 13% of the entire population allowed us to rule EVERYONE – mind you, 99% of the 13% are our friends, relatives, and corporate sponsor who give us expensive gifts and cruises and holiday packages.

We may not be lawyers, but we can practice law. It’s the law. We made it by the consent of aforementioned people!

so Regardless of what you have to say, you will be tried for multiple counts of CSA!”

Shakeel: “why don’t you practice some KMA?..........Kiss My Arse!”

hamidm2: “…….bailiff, remove Mr. Shakeel from here, please!....I can’t understand any kind of logic……definitely not his, because he`s saying things I never thought could come up

……we’ll take this matter to the congress, senate, and the shithouse….err….I mean….you know what I mean”

Bailiff: “not now, I’m busy”

tahmed32: “sir, he’s making out with the sandpaper, if you know what I mean”

hamidm2: “……bailiff, I know it’s a lot of fun, especially when there’s so much talk of sex……but please remove this man from here……I promise I’ll give you the book I’ve written: “making out with the sandpaper for secular bailiffs``. But please let this man out of court and set him free for now.....NOW....he`s getting on my nerves

Shakeel: “good. Let the senators take their time too. I gotta go make out with maryam, and later I’ll introduce Sara to S&M and bondage”

Sara: “WAIT A MINUTE!

What the hell did you judges do?

Who told you to try this case here?

Didn’t you read in sajal’s report what I was asking for?

I was praying to God: ‘Please, Dear God, Save me!’

Are you GOD?

NO!

You`ve ruined our lives.

Now he’s gonna beat me and my sister too, while your senators and legislators formulate the laws….we may be dead by the time they amend the laws….you duffers!

You dumb, good for nothing, don’t know shit-from-shingles-about-real-life, jackasses!

tahmed32: “Sara Sahiba, if you’re so smart enough at your age, prove it!”

temporal: “ahem…did you guys read my poetry on my ilog? Do you want me to paste some here….please?

The the QJs are later seen high-fiving for showing the people who`s the boss.

The bailiff and Shakeel are asking each other how much is in what they do

Mrs. Shakeel doesn`t know how to protect her daughters, thus prepares herself to spend the rest of her life in the nut house.

Sara prepares herself to run away, preferably with Maryam. ``Even prostitution seems better having suck-ular parents who suck their own daughters in a suck-ular system that sucks the blood out everyone excpet the few fortunate ones and even fewer with money, influence and other powers. So it`s either all GOD, or no GOD at all for us``, she thinks in despair

I was beginning to get really bored with this board until a guy called ``Dionysus`` showed up to argue on the side of the conservatives!!! LOL!!! Irony is alive and well, I see.

Anyhoo, on to serious matters:

Miriam - I began the article and got to the middle before chowk was inundated with articles on approx. the same subjects i was targetting so i put it on hold. As far as I was able to find out, the laws in India re: CSA are next to nil. There is a law about ``unnatural sex`` which is commonly applied and sometimes the Supreme Court lays down ``guidelines`` for interpretation of the law but there are no specific hard laws on the subject.

Everything is tangled - rape, homosexuality, CSA - under that one law. For example, if you are raped using something other than a penis then its not really rape, its unnatural sex. Similarly, if you`re a man and were raped by another, then its not rape but Unnatural sex. Ditto if you were forced into oral or anal sex.

Children who are abused have recourse to the law only under that act unless the judge sees it as rape with special circumstances. and since most kids are raped using fingers, etc it is often the judge that has the sole discretion.

There has been more debate on this issue in the recent past and there are now NGOs [well, i read of one, there may be others] who have taken up the issue.

Rahul knows more...

Re: # 285 Raw Dust

The thing is RD that the liberal lunatics first persuaded us to tolerate homosexuality because `what two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their buisness` . But we`ve gone WAY beyond all that now. Gays are demanding the right to marriage and to adopt children. They want to be able to express affection in public like normal couples. One looney liberal on UP a few months ago anouced that anyone who opposed gays kissing in public was `bigotted` If they get their way we could be sitting in the park with our nephews and nieces having to watch two 6`` 3 body builders tongueing each other. It is no longer a matter of what they do in their bedrooms. But if homsexual couples should have the right to express affection in public why not adult-consentual incestual couples? Where does it all end? Where do you draw the line and why?

#300 Shishpa ``May be the reason is, homosexual relationship does not bring forth any offsprings but
incestuous relationship can bring forth an offspring and may have genetic disorders.``

Ever heard of contraception or better still abortion, another one of liberalism`s pet causes. Just imagine, we can first `celeberate` a loving relationship between two consenting adults (ie. a father jigging his own daughter) and then we can `celebrate` a woman`s right over her own body (ie. to murder her unborn child) . We`ll be in looney liberal heaven!

#294 by tahmed32

“Actually Adam and Eve were not really siblings, but the question I have was: who the hell did their two famous sons, Abel and Cain marry??”

I know Baba ji and bibi ji were not siblings! All your research boils down to this: Both holy books of the 3 billion or more people have no record of baba ji and bibi ji having any daughter(s). …then how do we have 6 billion people in this world??


#303 by Romair

Romair, just a request…Please pick a small number of people to fight or respond. This whole thing is making you constantly loud!

At this point I just wanna know where you stand on the following:
1. Incest.
2. Secularism
3. Child molestation.
4. American Society
5. The Pakistani Society
6. Punjab and Punjabi language.
7. any other subject that interests you.

If we have one concise post on these issues, in future all you have to do is post a link to the post and that would save you from typing the same thing over and over again.

I am at this point just confused as I can’t make anything from your several posts to several posters on several boards. Some posts have long tails and others have long heads and some just have long heads for long tails or long tails for long heads or short heads for long tails or short tails for long heads…

Ps. How do you seal heads and tails? Can a head become a tail?

Just having fun...Carry on!

#288 temporal ``.am leery of those who harp on a single agenda and try to hijack and obfuscate..(raw-dust you were not doing that)...they want a debate on their terms...this is why i keep resurrecting sara`s ghost...then we can perhaps move onto adult-consentual issues...either here or in another thread... ``

Are you fockin` dumb or something??? Firstly, if you loonies didn`t want the thread `hijacked` why didn`t you simply answer the question 275 freaken interacts ago?? Secondly, I made it crystal clear I was talking about `adult consentual` incest.

Now please try again.

#277 MiriamK –a late reply (I have been away, yes I DO go outside the house.)

Regarding this side issue of chemical castration:

I would be highly surprised if a U.S. state can “mandate” castration (chemical, mechanical, sledge-hammer, or whatever - even poison-pen)! I didn’t even bother to check this. (Maybe MiriamK you need to sharpen your Google skills some more (not to mention your Math skills (By the way, you spend so much time on chowk, you probably run the danger of your Math grades hitting rock bottom!))

Any one with an infinitesimal understanding of the U.S. constitution would know that mandated castration would violate the “cruel and unusual punishment” part of the Bill of Rights (the Eighth amendment). Therefore, if a state were foolish enough to legislate it (and make no mistake about it, public opinion polls will ALWAYS favor it, human emotions being what they are, and demagogues will always exist who would advocate it from outside, at state/local levels (you may know of a demagogue or two)) it will never stand a Supreme Court scrutiny! (Maybe HP can say a few more words on this.)

Here is one plausible scenario, though.

The “judges” in many local jurisdictions actually hold elected offices and are more sensitive to the prevailing moods of their electoral bases. If a child molester has been convicted several times, the total length of sentences would be so high that it would be virtually impossible for that offender to walk free ever again. A populist local “judge” may come up with an “incentive” clause in the sentence which would offer the culprit a reduction in his sentence (or perhaps even freedom) if he agrees to VOLUNTARILY undergo castration. It’s up to the culprit to decide what he wants to do.

I believe MiriamK, it’s time you stop thinking that the standards of law enforcement practiced in Saudi Arabia are being eagerly awaited with outstretched arms by the rest of the world!

mariamk #290: ``Justs some thoughts....hope you don`t mind``

Don`t worry, I don`t mind. I am all for open expression of ideas. And loathe people trying to restrain others` ideas. However silly it may seem to many of them. And I am not easily offended........

``From one aspect what you say makes entire sense but when one steps into moral relativism it becomes a precarious philosophy to defend. From the moral relativists stance how can society label anything wrong?...... hope you would agree that even without bringing the ethical argument into play here the issues surrounding child sexual assault are grave. There has to be a practical approach here due to the sheer immediacy of the problem.``

I agree and this is what I am trying to address.......

The first step in protecting a child is the legal system of the country. This is especially true in Western countries, where things generally work according to the rule of law. If the legal system is going in the wrong direction, then nothing much can be done to protect the child.

If it becomes legal for a man`s 65 year old neighbor to seduce his 12 year old daughter into consentual sex, then the man will not be able to do much. If he goes and punches out the 65 year old, the man will be convicted for assault and battery. Nothing will happen to the 65 year old.........

All legal systems are based on certain philosophies. These philosophies result in a definition of ethical standards. Which then form the definition of right and wrong. Which leads to legal systems. These philosophies originate from various places like logic, religion, secularism, majority views, human rights, protection of individual rights, myths, scientific research etc.

Hence all of this has to be debated and understood. Since this decides the definitions of incest, consentual sex, age of consent etc. And it is the definitions of these in a society,, which will, first and foremost, decide whether child molestation has occured or not, to begin with.......

I personally disagree with the direction some of these laws are taking in the society I live in. And I have two options in making my argument: I can either yell and scream and call everyone who disagrees with me an, ``idiot.`` Like many on this site do. Or I can argue the ethical and philosophical basis of these laws.........I am attempting to do the later......

Rest assured, there is no way to protect a child, if the laws of the country do not offer protection. And if these laws start opposing one`s definition of a, ``child,`` to begin wtih, then it becomes next to impossible to protect the child..............

And if people don`t encourage others to highlight these points, they will never be able to see the whole picture...........

rahul_capri #296: ``its heartening to see you guys trying to rationalize religion,not Islam, but religion.``

I am not rationalizing religion. Just because someone disagrees with you or others, doesn`t automatically mean they are ratioanlizing religion.........Is it possible to disagree with people, without being accused of hating America or pushing religion?

Shankar #298: ``Sigh....I have heard enough sanctimonious hindus & muslims giving editorials about the ``immorality`` of American society...to last me 10 lifetimes.. ``

I am truly waiting for the day when people will get over becoming so defensive over the American society. No one is denigrating the American society. Please don`t become holier than the pope (or Uncle Sam, in this case). One hamidm is enough, for that. Please do not add yourself to that list........

People are only discussing the faults and virtues of various systems. And every system has its faults and virtues..........Including the American system.......As much as you and one or two others may find it hard to believe.......