The Ultimate Betrayal

Re: # 158
hamidm...apart from your humour, what I like about you is your directness. A no nonsense approach, straight to the bone is your attitude. Hats off to you for saying things which a certain section of people have been itching to say but were skirting, and the other camp were defending the issue in a preemptive manner just incase the issues you raised came up. A weird stale mate was established and an even weirder form of shadow boxing was being choreographed.

Escapist,

Careful. Most of us generally ignore Echoboom, Urs and Nyet Sahib because it is clear that they are cartoons.

HP has proven himself to be capable of participating within the realm of reason, even though I found various inconsistancies and inaccuracies in his points. I just prefer not to address every flare shot out.

If you`d like, we can start with your cyber behavior. Were you not posting the real names of chowk interactors online last week?

Please explain to us your ethical framework, coward.

Dotty, lookie here
This piece wouldnt qualify as pornography by any standards.
http://cybertip.ca/en/cybertip/incident_types/
Your point is valid about how to make this more effective, though.

Dotty,

That was quite an amusing tangent. What did it mean?

We ALL know incest and molestation exist. Most of CHOOSE to ignore it taking refuge in the most scoundrel rationales.

All writing is inherently political, whether the numbers of your congresspeople are attached to the text or not.

Re: # 139
Come on you know it.

It meant the piece is not complete....but that is besides the point now.

... I was just trying to understand the pitch on which a game is being played out. However, a little birdie warned me

Its a scary story. And for those of us who are parents of little children the reason that it is so scary is that it can be true. Its not just something that happens in the wild, wild west. It can happen anywhere, even in those countries where we came from. Its not just a stranger, it could be a relative or it even could be someone who works for you. Its not just children in the slums - it happens in affluent homes too.
So while its just a story, the author is showing us demons who exist in real life. So don`t forms camps and shoot each other.

#136 thank you for pointing it out to me , now go and gratify yourself by finding some paedophilic material.

Sajal, good job bringing all these ideas out. What I particularly appreciate, and what makes me think you know something about this, is that Sara still loves her father; that is what makes reporting CSA so hard for kids, besides of course the fear.
I think incest is probably a little less common in India than in the west, but the scary thing is that most developed countries can protect children to some degree through law and child protection agencies. In India, there is precious little that can be done for children who have suffered incest. My distant cousin`s wife accused her father-in-law of molesting her daughters in the middle of a divorce case,and of course all her in-laws accused her of lying. When my mother and I said we believed it because he was a nasty old man, there was much shock and consternation. She later reconciled with her husband, but never did allow her father-in-law access to the girls again. These things do happen.

This is interesting.

So when urstruly calls it a whiteman`s problem, he is not man enough.
But when HP agrees with him, and gives an elaborated reply saying

`` I am not going to blame one society more than the other for incest. I am sure it happens in every society but it is not an epidemic yet in the Asian societies. There are certain reasons for incest in the western societies and the biggest one is the cold weather. A majority of incest cases is reported in the western societies from the areas that go thru harsh cold weather and are mostly farming or agriculture communities. Vermont State in the US is known as the incest capital of the US. There may be similar areas in Canada or in European countries. In the winter, farmers have nothing to do. They stay at home drinking beer or other liquor and sometime under the influence, they molest their daughters. Wives live with it for obvious economic reasons. `

No body objects. Not even single comment. No body accuses him/her of being a abdul hate, generalising about the good americans.

So when urstruly say, its not happening in SA, and US has a large number of 10 yr old pregnent girls, he is asked to show stats. And when HP mentions about the stats on issue of child-rape and incest in SA, the small `t` suggests we should move ``beyond stats``,

So, when echoboom calls small `t` a kanjarr and a goraa goo chattarr, (whch is totally is), he is being typical muslim. However, small `t` calling everyone who doesnt agree with him as ``abdul hates`` is just a `` a taste of their medicine back to them.``

HP raised a very interesting issue of Urdu or hindi not having a word for ``incest``. Our local Imam once asked the people if they can translate ``haya`` in english. And when no one answered, he smiled and said, because it doesnt exist in english, there is no need to have a word for it in english.

Re: # 132 by escapist

May Allah bless you for your aim...you always hit the Bull`s Eye.

But don`t hold your breath for a response from these guys.


:-)~~

http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/library/CMCWEBSITE/AxisPapers.pdf
This is very informative.I have only glanced through it,and would be able to comment on how it bears on the discussion later,this being Saturday night and all.

rahul_capri #127

This piece does not depict a kidnapping – torture – rape – murder scenario, where doing things against the victim’s will is often the primary aim. It describes more furtive activity, where the exercise of power might be the instrument rather than the objective. Conflating child sexual abuse with forcible rape may not be helpful.

I will speculate – once again, in total ignorance of statistics and scientific data – that pedophile sexual attraction is not fundamentally different from the sexual attraction that ‘normal’ people feel towards specific human types – physical forms, personalities, mental and emotional traits, etc. It’s just that the attraction happens to be towards the forbidden green fruit, rather than to the permitted riper variety. It is problematic in societies that recognise and value individual autonomy because minors are deemed to not be fully autonomous – they are supposed to be incapable of fully calculating the consequences of their own and other peoples’ actions, and held to lack the full strength of will needed to say no. A scenario like the one in this story would be unacceptable even if the child never felt fearful, anxious, traumatised, confused, even if she enjoyed her father’s attentions and later looked back on them without regret.

Re: # 129
I would not read much into the primary or secondary aim- both aims can be equally important to the perpetrator. But I agree with this- Conflating child sexual abuse with forcible rape may not be helpful. with a significant rider-instead of csa I would like to put paedophilia.Csa and rape may have much in common.And that leads me to the conclusion that paedophilia and child sexual abuse are two different birds, not to say that they are always mutually exclusive.Now we need professionals,there is a limit to the discussion that we laymen can have.I will try to read up something on this and get back.

OSO #19

“Otherwise yes, this piece is mildly pronographic but also sickening.”

OSO #42, #58, etc.

OSO, you seem to have had an unusually intense reaction to this piece – you are not your usual debonair self. You clearly feel extremely strongly about this subject.

I’m interested in your opinion that this piece is pornographic. I say a piece has pornographic effect if it induces titillation, prurient desire, attraction towards the scene that it depicts, a wish perhaps to be an actor in a similar scene, to experience the same feelings as one of the protagonists. At the other extreme, a piece could be emetic, inducing feelings of disquiet, distress, revulsion, repulsion. The classification is subjective to the extent that it is determined by a particular individual’s responses. It is objective to the extent that it represents an average over a particular population.

I imagine that the hypothetical person of median sensual inclinations would find this piece emetic – those who commented on this board overwhelmingly found it disturbing. Now since it’s written from the point of view of the victim, describing her fear, distress and confusion, I’d suppose that it would make a person of pedophile inclinations uncomfortable – unless that person also delighted in inflicting pain and distress. Is that in fact the case with most pedophiles – i.e. are they also sadists? I honestly do not know – I am trying to get inside such a person’s cranium – but I would have guessed not.

I would surmise, in total ignorance of the science, that the typical non-violent pedophile would be cunningly manipulative and self-deluding by turns, concocting justifications for his behaviour and contriving to not see and foresee its effects, if necessary using threats to get his way; but not necessarily sadistic. He would not care for his image in the mirror that this piece holds up to him, therefore he would not find it pornographic. Am I wrong?

Re: # 127 Thanks AlephNull. The reaction is not really strong...but I fell that such articles have appeared so often within the diasporic world, that they are currently meaningless. Such articles have appeared before umpteen number of times, yet the situation continues. You read it the first time it moves you and in some they start doing something about it. The second time it appears, a few more people start doing something about it. and so on. Surely, given the number of times such stories have appeared in the diasporic world (here diasporic is south asian), surely a whole bunch of people should have been moved to do something about it... and that this has to appear so many times to shake people...That this has not happened indicates a number of things

(a) we as south asians are cool about it all, and feel that this is not a problem/issue
(b) that we have already solved this problem
(c) is titillating somebody out there. Titillation is not JUST SEXUAL HERE...there could also be economic titillation (like the tabloid frenzy......)

I am all for this kind of story, since it forces us to think about the people who suffer here.

But from my point of view, this piece would have been more meaningfull, if it continued beyond that last line. For it stops in mid-air. There are descriptions of pain etc in the middle, but beyond that pain and that last line there is not MUCH NEW THERE.

So what was the author really trying to get across here. He said somehere here (interacts) - he wanted to see our reaction to this kind of behaviour (I paraphrase here). Big deal. What did he expect, something other than revulsion and sympathy (in equal measures for the different characters)?. Is he a closet winder of people? Is he the neighbourhood aunty type - who justs cluck, clucks, hands out sympathies and goes on about her business, whilst spreading more gossip and muck over kitchen windows the next whilst making that vindaloo! What is he really thinking to achieve here. (My negative reaction started started after that interact from the author really). Forexample, the author has not told us why this is bad (we all know why this bad)? If we all know why this is bad, what the eff is this story here for - apart from titillating. If there are some of us who dont know why this is bad, then TELL US WHY THIS IS BAD? The author seems to indicate the second - but he fails miserably here.

A story of this kind if it has to really shake us beyond our world weiry selves, has to go beyond just a few meaningless lines. It has to shake us from our slumbers. Otherwise it is meaningless, and we all could read this, and like the neighbourhood aunty, cluck, cluck away and go back to our daily grind!

Re: # 135
You half Wit
The Author is a SHE!

and you really are one dumb fuck!

this time I AM insulting you.

Ooooh, please find a different insult now. The crab thing is so old and tired.
come up with something original.

but then again, I forgot!

You harp about the same thing over and over again.

So keep at it, Honey!

Muah.

Now go make give English lessons to some hapless nitwit.