The Ultimate Betrayal

HP,

With all due respect, well meaning ``uncles`` are the most widespread and pervasive form of incest AND molestation in sa communities.

Re:105

Mahashey Nt ``FAKE`` Syed,

The only smoke you are observing is the one you are blowing up my ass.

Have a nice life.

Re: # 110
HP - the girl in this story is a pre-pubescent daughter awaiting her father`s nocturnal visit with dread in her heart. She then gets her period and listens to her father shuffle into her little sister`s room.

This is CSA not adult consensual incest [which is a whole another story as you say]. Most people on this board are cognizant of the difference and have either mentioned that understanding specifically or have mentioned CSA when posting links.

#113 b
Saminasha

With utmost respect, well meaning “Uncles” don’t qualify for incestuous relationship. Child molestation may be. People just keep mixing up issues and throw fake numbers to prove their non existing point!

Child molestation is fairly common in every society but that to me is a different subject.

i am also intrigued (for lack of a better word) by the labelling that we`ve used here -- those of us who have questioned various posts are put in the ``liberal`` category, or the ``abdul-hates/insecuristas`` category, and there might be those of us in dialogue here who belong in neither, and who might just be a little bothered by such categorizations.

i have to give props to those who have enriched this dialogue by not falling into the trap of using these labels, and wanting more in terms of explanation from those who have. it is so much easier for us to make judgments, and judgment is unavoidable especially when it comes to the issues we`re discussing. we are not all going to be in agreement as to what this story represents, but the dialogue has been valid in terms of challenging ourselves to have intelligent discussions, and to remember that while some might not read this as child abuse, we should not lose perspective of those who have been in this situation and have suffered greatly because of it.

for me, personally, there is nothing in ``the ultimate betrayal`` that indicates pleasure on the part of the children, and much that indicates power and isolation on the part of shakeel: ``this is their special secret``, ``his professing to love her more than anything in the world.`` the paragraph which begins, ``please dear god, save me. . .`` this story is being told with the voice of a child, and the thoughts of a child, but in the paragraph i just mentioned, i notice a slight shift in voice, and wonder if this is still the voice of the child.

thank you all (or most of you) for making this discussion so informative and meaningful. shoresahib, i hope to communicate with you via email as soon as i get my 15 page paper and presentation out of the way. sajal, keep writing!

best,
--ana

For all those who are thinking that child abuse is white man`s problem, you are absolutely wrong. With in a span of 2 weeks there was news in one of the online English news papers from Hyderabad (India) reported 2 cases where the girls father`s were abusing them. Incidentally in both the cases, the victim`s were muslim. It was reported in www.deccan.com. Wondering if anyone else read the same news? I cannot provide the links as the online news paper does not maintain archives section.

I read a similar case from UP. I read sometime back a wife killing her husband because he was sexually abusing the daughter after getting drunk ( he was hindu atleast from the name).

HP,

I think ``uncles`` are a good example of the kind of slipperiness of what you are trying to make neat and tidy.

Uncles who are friends of fams in some ways are as part of that fam`s fabric as blood uncles. The former are expected to be shown respect, treated like fam, participate in fam events, and of course, are trusted as fam...

Almost every desi woman I know has either been assaulted or knows someone in her immediate fam who has been assaulted by in a uncle.

In very god fearing middle class fams.

Nice article Sajal.Here is an article by Shandana on the same topic.
I think these are the following things that can be done(I have posted some links in the Shandana article)-
1- Currently laws regarding csa(In India) are not adequate. There is a lot of work that can be done in that direction.
2- Doctors/counsellors are not equipped well enough to handle csa victims.
3-Children are not well equipped enough to recognize csa,specially from a parent. It is very necessary for the state to step up here and make education by which a child can recognize abuse, compulsory.Or better, a question answer session with a child psychiatrist(and yes, as per #2, there aren`t enough of them) just like an yearly visit to the doctor should be in place.
4- Statistics collecting services should aggressively pursue and report such cases.

mirium:

on another board i think we have exchanged our views ... me with emphasis on education and you with your macro-economis solutions...with regards to women`s empowerment... education not being a panacea to all that illsdesiland but as a first step in the uphil journey...and yes, i recall your example of grameen bank and the women lender`s abilty to pay back loans...

in the desi totem pole women are at the lowest rung...mullah-army-feudal-indutrail kakistocracy at the top...only with education and economic betterment will those groups at the bottom can ever hope to challenge the k(h)akistocrats
more power to mdg and other such bodies

khamy:
there is truth in your irreverence

nts:
you sir are irrelevant..to this discussion...

amrita:
sensible posts...

HP:
stats are welcome...but do you suggest we cannot discuss this without them?...the sexual abuse of the young wards in madresahs is well known and reported in the press....where are the pederasty stats?

ana:

labels noted...just a taste of their medicine back to them...no offence intended or meant to those not in them categories..

rgds

t

A word about the value systems. If somebody makes a cursory glance of secular jurisprudence ,(not that it is labelled in this way, but just to differentiate from Islamic jurisprudence of Quran and Sunnah) , religion,custom,tradition and norms are actually the biggest source of laws. So, the basic mistake being made here is thinking of secular value system as totally exclusive from religion. Secular value systems are more concerned about equity, that is ironing out those aspects of religion from its canon that differentiate between followers of different religion or different sexes. So, it will more be concerned with the deltas rather than the core mesage of a religion, that is, if the core issue of a religion is not misogyny or differentiating from other religions.

HP:

With regards to the numbers comment:

Ana was kind enough to provide a link several posts ago, I’m re-pasting it here:

http://www.unescap.org/esid/hds/sexual/pakistan.pdf

Especially relevant are pages 13 and 14. Please keep in mind that more than half of the children didn’t disclose the relationship of their molesters. Now if you have trouble with the fact that the UN authored this study then that`s your prerogative.

This topic is not an easy one to discuss. I’m sure most of us are having trouble keeping our heads on straight at the mere thought of such abuse.

Statistics are fine and they can at a glance provide reassurance to us in a detached format. But we also know why these statistics don’t exist. Widespread studies of sexual abuse are simply not conducted in Pakistan. And when and if they are, the “survivors” are unlikely to be truthful either out of fear or just not knowing better.

But on the flip side statistics can also dehumanize serious issues like this one. How widespread does such abuse have to be before we consider it a problem? In my humble opinion, one girl or boy abused by a father or a brother is one too many.

Re: # 100
so finally your so called liberal ass is itching...maybe you just got a pocketfull of crabs...no go hang yourself from the nearest yardarm.

Look at yourself : you are saying this is a story...go ahead and shout it out...then it is nothing but pornography for the paedophiles. And you are nothing but a pimp encouraging paedophilia.

And for your kind information, people in the US and the UK and many parts of this world have been ARRESTED FOR HAVING SUCH STORIES on THEIR HARDDRIVES. There was abig operation sometime back involving the FBI the Scotland Yard, and is still on going.

And you are not insulting me - you are insulting yourself by your ignorance of this particular fact. So dont get so uppity and shout. Learn to distinguish between a piece of fiction making a statement and a piece of pornography.

So dont become a pimp for paedophiles with your attitude.

Re: # 124
Congratulations on my psychoanalysis.
Thanks.
Now go Fuck yourself.
You are on ignore!

Re: # 124 & 125

were those outbursts really necessary? neither was shore`s earlier one, but i`ve read this again, and again, and all i see is pain, and fear, and revulsion, and confusion in this. how does this classify as pornography? or perhaps someone needs to remind me what the definition of pornography is? how is this story encouraging paedophilia? where is it doing so? is it here:

Please, Dear God, Save me! was all she could mutter in silent prayers with tears streaming down her cheeks. With the passing of time since the first encounter with him, he had grown bolder and more self assured and comfortable with her body. It was as if he wasn’t afraid of anyone, even God. He did whatever he wanted with her while her weak protests and screams were ignored and stifled by vague promises of his love.

does a description of someone forcing himself on a child encourage paedophilia? perhaps in their world, yes. but to many of us here who have read this, the women and the men, this is hardly titilating, we can distinguish between what is titilating and what is rape. what precedes this paragraph is her wish not to be touched anymore. again, if a pedophile were to read that, this will make no difference in his/her world. it will most likely reify the world he/she occupies, but if we read this as therapists, social workers, survivors of sexual abuse or physical/psychological abuse, and those who have never experienced such, as some of the interactors, would more than a few of us not recognize this as childhood sexual abuse. sara is not screaming and crying because she wants it. it is painful and her father doesn`t give a damn about her pain. some of the readers here, do.

this piece wasn`t written to entice paedophiles, --,,. if we have fictional stories about genocide, which also involve rape are those written to encourage genocidal maniacs and rapists? this is written rather simply yes, but the issues here are complex, and if you think that this does not serve the purpose of highlighting childhood sexual abuse, then you don`t. but stories written in this vein have been published before, and are not considered pornographic. this is a really depressing story, about a child who was made thoroughly confused as to what love from a parent is and once she hits puberty, realizes that her sister is about to be the recipient of that same ``love``. and this is a story which draws from the real world. you`ve made some really good points on this board. could you tell us what you mean by this being nothing but ``pornography for the paedophiles``?

OSO #19

“Otherwise yes, this piece is mildly pronographic but also sickening.”

OSO #42, #58, etc.

OSO, you seem to have had an unusually intense reaction to this piece – you are not your usual debonair self. You clearly feel extremely strongly about this subject.

I’m interested in your opinion that this piece is pornographic. I say a piece has pornographic effect if it induces titillation, prurient desire, attraction towards the scene that it depicts, a wish perhaps to be an actor in a similar scene, to experience the same feelings as one of the protagonists. At the other extreme, a piece could be emetic, inducing feelings of disquiet, distress, revulsion, repulsion. The classification is subjective to the extent that it is determined by a particular individual’s responses. It is objective to the extent that it represents an average over a particular population.

I imagine that the hypothetical person of median sensual inclinations would find this piece emetic – those who commented on this board overwhelmingly found it disturbing. Now since it’s written from the point of view of the victim, describing her fear, distress and confusion, I’d suppose that it would make a person of pedophile inclinations uncomfortable – unless that person also delighted in inflicting pain and distress. Is that in fact the case with most pedophiles – i.e. are they also sadists? I honestly do not know – I am trying to get inside such a person’s cranium – but I would have guessed not.

I would surmise, in total ignorance of the science, that the typical non-violent pedophile would be cunningly manipulative and self-deluding by turns, concocting justifications for his behaviour and contriving to not see and foresee its effects, if necessary using threats to get his way; but not necessarily sadistic. He would not care for his image in the mirror that this piece holds up to him, therefore he would not find it pornographic. Am I wrong?

Re: # 127
Typically in situations of rape and abuse, it is something about the manifestation of power; the power that the perpetrator holds over the victim.What the victim feels is of no particular consequence, because care for the victims` feelings is anithetical to the notion of power.They may not enjoy the victims pain, but they will enjoy their helplessness, and in that sense they are sadists.