The Ultimate Betrayal

Urstruly Sahib:

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to suggest here. Are you implying that those people who find incest or child molestation reprehensible from a secular but nevertheless moral/ethical framework shouldn’t do so? That it is only from a religious/God-based perspective that one can deign to find incest an egregious moral trespass?

I hope that’s not what you are saying because at the end of the day why should it matter? Incest or child molestation in any culture (muslim or non-muslim) is an atrocity. An adult imposing him/her self on a non-consenting child is wrong and should be taken to task for it. I mean attributing value to another human being/child and respecting their rights should prevent one from inflicting an emotional, psychological and physical violation as this.

Re: # 48
ps:
evolution - for something to evolve into the next step, it is usually a new thing - standing upright, moving indoors, sleeping on beds, cooking food, eating off plates... they`re all a step up. child abuse is neither new nor is it something thats bettering our lives.

[I`m sure someone is going to bring up homosexuality right about now so let me address that: homosexuality is a sexual encounter between two consenting adults. Is it bettering our lives? Yes, because you are granting adults their sexual freedom. If one man rapes another man or one man has sex with young boy who may/may not be related to him and may/ may not be gay himself, it is wrong. These are all nuances and you have to work really hard at understanding them. And this paragraph is entirely beside the main topic and stated only to keep the discussion on the main topic. thank you. ]

enjoyment - cocaine is very enjoyable too, I hear, but does all kinds of nasty things to your body. On the psychological effects of little children who enjoyed being touched, pls visit your nearest book store to find books addressing the issue. I once heard Oprah Winfrey talk about her own experiences to some other kids who also suffered abuse and experienced sexual pleasure and that entire conversation still disturbs me when I think about it.

ShoreSahib - its plain ol Amrita, thank you, and ditto. :)

#38 by ntsyed:

BTW Urstruly, I like the question you`ve put forth here. Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.

the question posed in #32 by Urstruly referred in #38 is:

So my question, again is, what is so wrong sleeping with one`s daughter? Why it is dsiturbing to saminashah and why it irks temporal.

---

re: #38:

sir:

i recall you mentioning you`re a father of 2 or 3 adolescent daughters... i would be interested in learning your answer to urstruly`s query?

rgds

t

#51 by temporal
That was not necessary!

Amrita,

I think you are missing the point urstruly is articulating. His question is fairly simple. Under what value system would you oppose the father and daughter sexual relations? His contention is that only religion(s) provides that framework or the value system, which forbids the incest relationship. Since secular or liberal have no code written or otherwise to guide the society on this behavior.

I think he has a valid point and it is most likely that the incest, rape or even child molestation were declared unacceptable behaviors including Gay relations and now Gay marriages by all religions.

His reasoning is that if liberals and secularists support Gays and Gay marriages, then how could they possibly oppose incest?
I think you need to articulate a response to him instead of talking about the issues that are after the incest either physical or emotional.

Urstruly, do you agree with interpretation?

Re: # 52 HP

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say/ask.

Re: # 52
Dear Amrita,
You better answer this!!

Temporal Bhai,
Your question was brilliant and poignant considering NtfakeSyed`s perpetual cranial flatulence.

RE# HP,

Dear HP sahib,

I wrote this piece so I don`t know why you are having the feeling of deja vu.........

The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

HP sahib,

according to the dictionary incest is defined as,

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

HP one doesnt need to be a genius to answer this question. as u rightly pointed out (and amrita was trying to hint at in a previous post) there is a distinction between incest and child rape/molestation. the law has nothing against incest as long as both parties are above the age of consent. in case they are below it is treated as rape and the punishment is severe because of a violation of trust by one whom society entrusted with this reponsibility. and because the violated was considered incapable of making a sound judgement in this regard (along with others such as drinking, driving, voting etc).

Re: # 46

I would prefer to call this an article. Calling it an article, provides a framework for criticising it and there is no category which will oppose the article or the material. For as a story, it interests three sets of people
(a) those like who feel moved by it and think these guys should be locked and the key chucked away
(b ) the people who get titillated by the subject matter and the materail
(c) the people who dislike the set of (b ) and their rationale is different from those of (a) and would prefer that such stories not be put out for it stops a source of titillation

I am in (a) so are you and so are other along with the author. Urstruly, if I could so categorise him, falls into (c).

Indeed, I think the reaction you are getting from the likes of urstruly, is very much similar to what you would have at the thoought of ADULT PORNOGRAPHY appearing here on chowk. Isnt that the reason why people protest against the TOPLESS GIRLS of Page Three in many a tabloid.

Going down the route of a story, you need to be extremely careful as to what you put out. The argument COULD BE MADE that this is child pornography - it is a story for the nonces - and nonces have no place amongst us. thus I would prefer to call it an article, and to make this is psuedo-article some sort of a fottnote, epilogue, prologue whatever should have been there.

An article can be criticised for the contents, analysis, portrayal etc. A damned story - its only LITERARY criticism that can be done. If you want to do anything else THEN MAKE IT A SOCIAL COMMENTARY!

#56 Sajal,


I hope my feeling of Deja vu is unreal-:)

That is dictionary meaning and every society would define ``closely related`` or ``near relatives`` differently.

Is their any word for incest in Urdu or Hindi or any other Indain languages? and how is it defined there.

The incest is only between a father or daughter or blood brother and sister. Rest of the relations can have sex as long as they are legally able to based on different cultures.

Only religions and customs govern/define who cannot have sex but all religions and customs agree that father daughter, sister brother sex is unacceptable.

#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

in a related subject story in the Toronto Star of today there is front page story that traces a porn ring abusing children and infants nabbed witht he help of TO police ... will post the link later

rgds

t

urstruly:

since this is relevant to this discussion may i ask if you have any children of your own? and if you do of what sex and ages?

if you feel this is too intrusive, disregard

rgds

t

Re: # 60 60 by temporal on May 27, 2005 1:35pm PT
#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

no you are really insulting our intelligence here.Are you living in some sort of a coccoon insulated from the rest of the universe....baaahhh! you are really not being serious..

Urstruly & HP - I think you both are being a bit disingeneuous (sp???) here. What is your opinion of the following

(a) sex between a 35 year old and a 10 year old

(b) sex between a 35 year old and a 20 year old
(age of consent and all that apllies to (b )).

Here were not associating geneological relationships to these two cases as yet.

It has nothing to do with religious dissapproval or approval. It is natural revulsion.