The Ultimate Betrayal

Ntsyed Sahib:
#38, #51

I understand completely the question Urstruly Sahib or yourself have posed (please read posts #49 and #76). What I don’t understand is why you (or anyone else) prefer to assert a values framework instead of discussing the issue at hand (i.e. the abuse of a child by her father). Could you and/or anyone else please explain that to me.

from almost the beginning of the interacts here, this story was described as a ``white people`s story.`` from that moment on a judgment was attached to this which is being explained in various ways.

as miriam put it so succinctly, there is a power dynamic at work here in this story, and there is a power dynamic involved when a man/woman who is an authority figure in a child`s life is involved in sexual relations with her/him. . . a child ``consenting`` to sex assumes that a child is aware of what the sexual act involves and that is simply NOT the case for most of the children involved. a child is overpowered by confusion and fear, and the words of an elder telling him/her that he/she is loved more than anything on earth, or she is beautiful.

i was six years old when a stranger, a oily-haired man who looked all grown-up to me with a moustache was unzipping my trousers, telling me how nice they looked, and touching me in an area i had little awareness of save that it was ``there``. if my siblings hadn`t rescued me, there is no telling what could have happened. i was very frightened and confused. and this didn`t happen in farangi lands, this happened in lahore, on a college campus. it wasn`t a family member, but had my father, or my elder brother done this i would have been no less confused or frightened. and because of my paralysis from fear, what happened to me was determined as being my fault, as my father`s reaction showed us the next day.
it is all well and good for us to attach incest to religion, or a value system, but really, a value system is NOT the issue here. an issue here is having sex with a child under the guise of love linked to abuse. and what has been disturbing about many of these interacts, is the assumption that a) a child is able to consent. and b) a child is fully aware of what he or she is consenting to. and it doesn`t look like we`re going to talk about that, if we keep harping on religious vs. secular value systems.

Re: # 81

miriamk Sahiba,

Today ain`t yer lucky day, either...not as of May 28, 2005 5:51am PT. Oooh.....yer`n early birdie, aincha? Or you couldn`t sleep?

Keep tryin` :-)~~

Ana:
#82

Thank you for sharing that story. No matter how many times I hear stories like that the feelings elicited are the same; intense anger for the person inflicting the abuse and terrible sadness/helplessness for the child in question.

I hope what you said drives the point home because it is quite evident that what I (and others) have been saying is falling on deaf ears :).

Re: # 81
Dear Miriamk,
I am sure you must have figured out that the hapless trio ( UrstrulySONOtTruly, EchoDoom and NtFakeSyed) seriously lack the testicular fortitude to discuss issues at hand. They would rather glorify the past and present glories of the version of their Islam. I think it stems from their deep sense of insecurity and an unconscious inferiority complex that instead of thinking for themselves as independent humans, they have to color everything with their ultra-conservative, misinformed, and very very misguided view of Islam.

U know Miriam Aapi,
I have realized that it is absolutely no use discussing issues with the hapless trio because our aims are totally different. You and I would like to discuss issues and create dialogue.
They would rather heckle, poke fun at liberal minded people and reiterate to ad infinitum their morally superior position on every known issue to WO(MANKIND).

Ntsyed sahib:
#83

That`s right Ntsyed sahib let`s discuss my sleeping and waking habits because I`m almost certain that`s what sajal intended. Nice tangent/diversion by the way! :).

If all of us seem to have missed this esoteric point why don`t you in your infinite and Yoda-ish wisdom enlighten us. Or is it more fun to play games when a serious topic of abuse is being discussed?

You know Ana,
I am a social worker and I work in close proximity with these so called White people.
They are just people, like any other peoples on the earth. They have the same problems, wishes, desires, ambitions like any from the South Asian community.

People like the Hapless Trio always want to create divisions and point fingers and make fun of the ``OTHER``. This ``OTher`` can be western societies or on a more personal level, those South Asians that have been blessed with good education and a liberal all inclusive mind set.

It is funny that Urstruly mentioned that girls get pregnant at the ages of eight and nine regularly in the West. Perhaps the ones he knows. I work with unwed pregnant women and girls, and I have yet to see or hear about a nine year old that ended up pregnant.
Mr. Urstruly`s reality testing is extremely poor.

Re: # 82
You know Ana, when I was nine I was sexually abused. I did not even know at the time what sex was, or what this man was doing was wrong.
I so totally agree with you.
You know it takes courage to admit in public that you were sexually molested.

God bless your heart.

Ana and Shore Sahib,

Perhaps Chowk and its interactors will one day be worthy enough to hear your ideas and input.

ana, miriam, shore, sammi, amrita, HP, dotty and others:

thoughtful posts...and thoughtful deliberations...up there i see this artilce has been read or clicked 1891 times...please keep up with your thoughtful posts...the majority of readers can easily discern between the posts of the insecuristas and the abdul hates

insecurista
n: singular

a person who displays one or more of the following symptoms:

a person who is insecure about his/her world view, mental outlook, physical self, who froth easily, provoke unnecessarily, have deep seated complexes camouflaged with righteous indignation, think s/he knows the value of everything when in reality s/he knows only the price, henpecked, in lousy relationships with their spouse and children, and a menace and a danger to themselves if left untreated e.g. most abdul-hates

Re: # 82 from almost the beginning of the interacts here, this story was described as a ``white people`s story.`` from that moment on a judgment was attached to this which is being explained in various ways.


The refuge of the blind, the mute, and the deaf. The image of three monkeys came to mind when I read this in the initial interacts. What is really appalling, and I know this for a fact since I have worked for and amongst these people, is the callous attitude of those around them - both relatives as well as friends. It is very much similar to the stories you women being paraded naked through streets not for doing anything illegal or being morally wrong, and for the legislated gang rape. All this done in front of gaping and gwaking crowds, and there is not one man (or any one even a woman) who dares lift his/her finger to help.

This discussion, wouldnt have gone in the direction of incest, and away from child molestation if the author and editors were a bit more careful, and provided a footnote, an epilogue or a prologue giving some facts and figures. At the very least, since, we are reading all of this using a web browser a damned link from where this could have been obtained, should have been provided.

Anyway all of this way to dipressing to discuss. The only way to tackle it right now it seems to to provide a framewokr of care for the victims.

Ana, Shore Sahib, Miriam and Sajal,

I understand your points about sexual assault not being limited to race, culture, ethnicity and orientation. What might be worthwhile exploration is in what manners are south asian communities confronting assailants thru social and legal policy and what kinds of support systems are available to survivors (``victim`` is not an adequate term).

Again, orgs in the US like Sakhi, Mannavi and Apna Ghar are creating strong webs of lawyers, psychs, safe houses, support groups etc. in order to serve women and children survivors.

How does one make these orgs and these kinds of efforts a visible part of mainstream south asian/sa diasporic communities?

Also,

to what extent do the values of ``stigma`` and ``honor`` as performed and attached to the bodies of girls and teenage girls indirectly strengthen the social mechanism of denial and silence?

and boy children, as well.

sam:

kudos for the efforts of agencies here...

the bigger problem remains in desi lands...what with stigma, honour, coupled with lack of agencies/organisational to help...in the story i and syke mentioned the trauma/abuse sufferers actually declined to come forward and be helped...

... and then there are other studies that indiciate that quite a few times it is these victims who later perpetuate the horrors later...

lve

t

shoresahib:

it does take great courage indeed, it has on your part as well. and you know i`ve never said that i was molested, because my siblings interrupted what he might have done, but that feeling of fear, of total unawareness, and that memory, and especially the aftermath have stayed with me.

i also wanted to respond to what you said about the poster who talks about girls getting pregnant at the age of eight or nine. i remember being in lahore as an adolescent, and my cousin and i talking about some tabloidish news about a nine-year old getting pregnant and how completely ``unnatural`` that seemed to us. the fact is that there are obviously huge differences physiologically between children and adults. . . and rapid development of children anatomically or physiologically is not necessarily a good thing. but that is also what is so very disturbing, the fact that everychild is not even fully developed or equipped, physically, mentally, emotionally to KNOW, to really know what is involved when a parent fondles them and has sex with them. children are told not to talk to strangers, that if a stranger should touch them in a certain way, that it is wrong, but then a parent does the very same thing a stranger should not do, and what impact does this have psychologically on a child?

many bequeath ``adulthood`` far too quickly to children and have done so since time immemorial, but there are those who will prefer someone`s lack of development to exert their power and control and their desires on him/her and that is something that surpasses the narrow framework in which some want to place the issues this story addresses.