The Ultimate Betrayal

incest is a reality and every time somebody brings it to notice it is just as shocking as the first time. nicely done sajal...if only these horrid sins werent true!

sounds like a white people story

sajil:

stories such as this gives the creeps...nice simple flowing style...:)


urstruly:

very canny observation!

in desi-land these things never happen!

true story: this was narrated to me by a participant...some local NGOs were doing the rounds in a village 30-40 miles from faisalabad...investigating incest cases...they found this girl...13years old...who described in details her father`s abuses...when the lady doctors asked her why she submitted to the abuses...did not report it to others her reply was `he is my father, our religion tells us to obey parents`

i trust you will take time to digest this and not come back with lame duck one liners or a cut n paste glorifying islamic renaissance or conversion or spread of islam in foreign lands or jails...also as a consideration will you inform echo/chusni and others in your tag team to stick to the subject of incest on this board? or will i be out of luck?

rgds

t

Re: # 3 t

you got me, you cantonment kutta

#4:

lame

Thank you Sajal!
You have highlighted the most taboo subjects in South Asian societies. I believe that only when South Asians speak out and about incest, can there be dialogue and awareness for a serious problem that plagues our society.

Your story reminded me of the narrative found in one of Syed Akbar Ahmed`s book, ``Rediscovering Islam`` where he describes the childhood incest experienced an Egyptian Muslim woman by her grandfather.

Your story has very good flow. The writing style is simple, yet articulate. Excellent choice of subject. Loved it!!
Please write more!

Re: # 5

``lame``

Ok I admit/confess that about 90% of Muslim girls have slept with their fathers. Happy?

#7 why are you so defensive?

This is what happens in closed (stagnated) societies. Everything happens but behind the ``purdah``. In the west, it is out in open - that is the ONLY difference.

Sajal:

This topic is simultaneously heart wrenching and heinous. I never know whether to scream in anger or weep in anguish.

Thanks for bringing this topic to the forefront! :)

Depressing!

Adders eat their babies.
Man has got an extra appetence.

Urstruly,

Where`s the easy breezy veneer? That was some unexpected flash of fang...telling....

tbhai,

well done.

sajal,

``his hands drifted all over her body making her cringe with a revulsion she did not know how to even name.``

disturbing and well phrased.

Re: # 12 Saminashah

I really don`t understand the issue here. When I look at the issue of incest through the prism of your moral values I absolutely find no reason to feel that incest of a father with his daughter, regardless of her age, is offensive or inapproptriate in any shape or form. Please explain to me why it is a bad thing.

I can write a whole thesis on this issue expalining why based on my values I find incest morally and legally reprehensible but can you write one paragraph explaining why you feel ``disturbed`` judging it by your system of values?

urstruly:

be a man for a change!

(man--does not mean a muslim--man here refers simply to a man a father...a son...a granpa)

and remeber the issue at hand is incest... i...n....c...e...s...t...

sajal - what i really like about your writing is the sincerety. Well done!

urstruly - What has Samina ever said or done to make you believe that she approves of incest, especially child sexual abuse as in this story between a father and his pre-pubescent daughter/s?

Urstruly, issue is not one of religion but the ethos of the people. The basic moral and/or ethical values are being questioned. It is not a question of conservative or liberal values, or the nature of the looking glass here. The issue goes to the very basics of what we, as human beings, want society to look like. We build the rest on top of this.

The reason given by the girl in Temporal`s story, could be the same reason this girl didnt say anything, but the trauma is there, that confusion ``Daddy is in Maryam`s room, and from now on she will be Daddy’s Special Girl.`` is palpable - it should be tearing your heart out, not jumping to the defence of the indefencible.

The one thing which is missing from this story, is a backgrounder of the sort Temporal gave (either as an epilogue or a prologue) with facts and figures. This would remove anecdotal stories and facts impinging on the horror of it all - and would have stopped many from questioning the veracity, authenticity of stories like this.


I have been called ``wil of Wisp`` by many, but surely this is something from which even a willow will recoil and draw a line - defence of the indefencible.

sajal, miriamk, amrita, saminasha

This article shocked me much more than frequent reports of incest in the West ever do.

Sorry for aiming the following question toward just you ladies, but unfortunately on this subject you may have more information.

Is incest really common/much prevalent in South Asia?

I always thought we were more or less immune from this sort of thing!!

WTF! It`s not a social commentary or an academic discourse. It`s neither an attempt to spread awareness on child abuse nor an expose of any particular incident. It`s just fiction to titillate and provide oppurtunity to those sick middle aged men out here to read, write, discuss and confess till they cant get enough. Comments are already flowing in - ``Nice simple flowing style``, ``Lovely``, ``Well done``, ``Please write more``. I say, why this veiled attempt at stimulation? Why dont you give your fans more of this? Put it all in here - inner thighs, outer lips - everything.

But I wont spoil it for temporal who wants to discuss incest on this board. This is my take on incest sir! I say, go fcuk your mother, daughters, sisters for all they are worth. I dont judge. But if you really love your daughter so much then well at least wait till she`s over 18 and take her when she becomes a woman.

Cheers

#18 on the money there vagabound...hence my suggestion of an epilogue or a prologue giving some facts and figures, and extremely well researched events. Otherwise yes, this piece is mildly pronographic but also sickening.

The worst about it is, in countires like Pakistan..the people who you go to in a crisis like this...are the culprits..who do you run to??

My friend worked for an NGO in Islamabad..which dealt with Child Abuse...it was so depressing and in the end sometimes...the case`s have to be dropped because the victim just doesnt have the guts to go against the abuser.

You know what the worst thing is..the families reaction...i remember once a mum turned around and say...Jhoot Bolte Hai....Dhayan..(Attention) hatathe hai apnay kartoto say...
Patah nahi kara yaar haiga....
Aba Kama kar denda usay thay tukthdee hai..Khuda dee Maar Ho gaye...
(She lied, diverting attention from her wrong doings..she;s spitting on her own father, God wont forgive her..)

These were the words of a mother..who actually BELIEVED her daughter..but was too afraid to admit it.

kaal - if you`re asking me have i ever been a victim of incest, the answer is no. And if that indeed was your question, you should direct it to people in general because boys too are victims of child sexual abuse.
here is a link that might interest you - http://outlookindia.com/mad.asp?fodname=20050509&fname=Making&sid=1

vagabond - if you found this titillating then i suggest an immediate visit to the psychiatrist. Fiction this may be, but pointless titillation it is not. I found the material extremely hard to read and I suspect a lot more people did too. And if you dont judge people who abuse others, especially those who abuse children, then you are far more objectionable a person than sajal.

dotty - i absolutely agree with #16.

amrita

Hope that didn`t come across as a personal question. I was exploring the possibility that women who are in such difficult situations may not be publicly reporting their experiences, but they may be speaking to other women. You can see that under some circumstance women, like any other group, may observe a self-imposed collective silence. I

Re: # 22
kaal - I see. cool :).
I dont know anyone personally who`s been a victim of CSA, but I do know a few people [both sexes] who`ve been hit upon by their relatives. A couple of the girls were in their mid to late teens when it happened and there was apparently some inappropriate touching, but most of them were adults... and were still thrown into confusion. Personal accounts of CSA tend to be something that people dont discuss at all, whether you`re western or eastern. I think its too painful.

Its a painful read.It gives a creepy sensation which some of Manto`s stories(like khol do)give.Incest is a problem in all societies-extent may vary and no statistics of prevalence will be available because of the nature of the problem and its not only girls who are the victims,even young boys go through this and their are instances where grandfather is the abuser.

very well written piece of work; it made me shudder with horror as I read it. La hawla wa laquwwata. Sadly, such things occur and it would be naive to pretend they don`t or are restricted only to the West...

Which is why shar`iah law should be enforced to allow such people who commit such crimes to be executed as they deserve in public with whippings and beheading...

Re: # 19

amrita,

urs is just upset his true colors were seen by all....everything following will be diversionary tactics...

Thankyou everbody for your compliments.


The girl is afraid and does not want her father`s attention yet in her innocence she mistakes his behavior for love. Her father then deserting her and moving on to the younger sister was the ultimate betrayal for her.

Child sexual abuse victims are always confused about their feelings, they hate their abusers yet want their attention at the same time especially if girls are young and the abuser is the father.

This story was not an article that is why there are no facts or figures it was a simple read about the relationship between a father and his daughters.

If some people found it pornographic and titilating then it is sad as it was supposed to give the creeps not erotic feelings.

Kalchakra,
child sexual abuse is very common is our South Asaian community. Incest is prevalent too but we do not want to believe it as it threatens our trust in the most sacred of relationships.

Temporaljee:

Your story of the NGO worker (and also Syke’s #20) reminded me of a conversation I was having with a good Pakistani friend of mine not a week ago. He is a physician and in his profession he sees so much of this (incest, sexual abuse), and has observed it in the South Asian community as well. What’s more, the several times he has reported the abuse, mothers (South Asian among them) have come in to his office to heap expletives on him for sticking his nose where it doesn’t belong!

I was struck in horror that any mother, irrespective of culture would knowingly place her child in harm’s way. But I suppose preserving the status quo or keeping the peace, albeit grounded in a lie is important to some people.

Kaalchakra jee:
#17

I understand your reason for asking the question. You’re right, sometimes women talk to each other about matters such as this for a multitude of reasons. Although, I have never been personally a victim, I have one Muslim friend who was repeatedly abused by her father from a very young age until she was well into her teens.

She is professionally very successful; completing a residency as a physician. Her personal life is in shambles though. We have gotten her all kinds of help but the affects are deeply entrenched. She exhibits extremely self-destructive behavior.

Asides from her, I know several women who have been sexually abused by extended family members like cousins, uncles, etc.. It isn’t incest but any kind of sexual abuse is traumatizing. So, no as a culture we aren’t immune to this. We are just better than others at sweeping it under the rug.

Dear several pissed people

Isn`t it a fact that almost every Roman emperor has bedded his mother and almost every Egyptian Pharoah has bedded his sister. Almost every Roman, Greek, Hindu, and Egyptian god had a sexual congress with a relative that is considered incest today. As a matter of fact the Islamic (and Jewish) historians & scholars tell us that until before the shariah (law) of Moses was revealed, under Islamic law the marriage between brothers and sisters was allowed. Law of Moses changed that. IN the Arab culture at the time of Prophet marrige with one`s first cousin and adopted relationship was frowned upon, whereas, the culture was that an Arab would send his wife to a handsome man for impregnantion so that he could have a beautiful child. Elsewhere, a hindu finds his niece sexy and sees his children in her eyes but a cousine is like sister to her. But in a Muslim society a man finds his first cousine sexy but a neice is like daughter to him.

The point is that all the relationships are in fact arbitrarily chosen. In fact, if you exclude the incestuous relationship from Freudian psychology the whole foundation of modern science of psychology falls flat on its face. I think freud is correct that as organisms we are attracted towards the opposite sex regardless of our relationships. The sanctity of relationships is actually a learned behaviour, we do not come prepackaged and preprogrammed with genetic codes with the sanctity of relationships. If it were so the incest would have never happened; no man would have gotten laid with another man; and no women would have chosen fingers and tongues over you know what.

Isn`t it a fact that all relationships in every part of the world have been created by religion. The evidence is right before us where in West the millenums old institution of marriage is being questioned. And as a matter of fact marriage has no place in a secular society (or a communist society, right saminashah?). As a matter of fact any relationship between human beings is unconstitutional or illegal under secular laws. So if a brother wants to sleep with his sister no law can stop him.


So my question, again is, what is so wrong sleeping with one`s daughter? Why it is dsiturbing to saminashah and why it irks temporal. Would the writer explain why she/he found the subject so erotic in comparison.

Re: # 32
Urstruly,
You are not just a pathetic fundamentalist, but also very very mentally sick.

May God have mercy on your soul.

the last part reminds me of one of the last scenes in `monsoon wedding`


in a sexually repressed society such as pakistan, i would think that incest occurs more and is reported less frequently due to the stigma associated with women who would even dare to speak out, let alone children.

#19:

1: I did not write this piece of fiction

2: #16: and then #19: they are incongruent…

3: the stats would have aided if it was a piece of non-fiction.

…considering the nature of the subject…abused young boys and young girls do not come forward easily….for a multitude of reasons…even here in the west…

…and in our desi countries the job of collecting data is even harder…

…the two third person stories narrated in the interact show that

rgds

t

I somehow have a nagging feeling that I have read this story somewhere else. Only names of Characters appear different. I would appreciate it if the author would clarify this for me.

No matter how upsetting, but there is lots of truth in urstruly’s post.

Nobody in this world would condone incest but urstrly is correct that incest has something to do with religion. I hope people know that Adam and Eve were the first legal couple in this world-per religious tenets-; obviously, their kids were having sex with each other for the world population to multiply in the later years. Was that not incest? So religions do endorse incest otherwise this world would not have been 6 billion strong now!

I think people here are confusing sexual harassment with incest. Incest is an actual act of having sex with a person you are not supposed to and mainly it refers to sex between Fathers and Daughters. Child molestation by uncles, older cousins, neighbor etc is not incest at all because it is child molestation and all those people can have sex with each if both are adults. The incest is incest because a father and a daughter are not supposed to have sex for whatever reason even when both are adults. Therefore, incest is not about having sex with a minor.

I am not going to blame one society more than the other for incest. I am sure it happens in every society but it is not an epidemic yet in the Asian societies. There are certain reasons for incest in the western societies and the biggest one is the cold weather. A majority of incest cases is reported in the western societies from the areas that go thru harsh cold weather and are mostly farming or agriculture communities. Vermont State in the US is known as the incest capital of the US. There may be similar areas in Canada or in European countries. In the winter, farmers have nothing to do. They stay at home drinking beer or other liquor and sometime under the influence, they molest their daughters. Wives live with it for obvious economic reasons.

If weather is the biggest factor in incest, then I fail to see how incest could be a major social issue in Pakistan or India. Mind you, I am making a distinction between child molestation and incest.
The other and less discussed part is incest between Brothers and Sisters. Young siblings do explore each others sexual dissimilarities and some go on to continue this in their teens and there are some cases in places like Muncie, Indiana where sex between brothers and sisters is a fact of life, these cases are not reported at all as both parties are adults.

urstruly: # 32:

....perhaps as per your agenda...you are out on a mission to heckle...not to learn;)

you have answered your own innocent sounding query

The sanctity of relationships is actually a learned behaviour, we do not come prepackaged and preprogrammed with genetic codes with the sanctity of relationships

simpler words...we are no different than haiwaans when born...and through religion, culture, society we endeavour to elevate our selves to become an insaan

...manifestations of a person relationships with others...family, friends, society are always seen in this light

rgds

t

---

mirium #30:

But I suppose preserving the status quo or keeping the peace, albeit grounded in a lie is important to some people.

it is this barrier that the victims of abuse come up initially…and as some studies have suggested oft times these victims when they grow up they become the abusers…thus perpetuating the cycle…

lve

t

Compliments to sajal on her writing skills!

I think a subject like this could never be sugar-coated, yet should be brought to the foreground nonetheless.

There are, and will always be, people who will sink to such low irrespective of identities. What gets me is: what is going through the mind of a person like Shakeel?

I mean he has a wife, so it can`t be sexual deprivation. If it IS sexual deprivation, then in a Muslim society he can take more wives. In a secular society, today many a women are willing to be one-night stands or just sexual friends without any strings attached. Not to mention prostitutes are in abundance in every society.

Although I`m not sure, but from readings the Pharoas, Roman and Greeks et al bedded their mothers and sisters mostly for power or wealth.

What drives a common person like Shakeel to molest his own progeny - children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces...etc???

BTW Urstruly, I like the question you`ve put forth here. Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.

Compliments to sajal on her writing skills!

I think a subject like this could never be sugar-coated, yet should be brought to the foreground nonetheless.

There are, and will always be, people who will sink to such low irrespective of identities. What gets me is: what is going through the mind of a person like Shakeel?

I mean he has a wife, so it can`t be sexual deprivation. If it IS sexual deprivation, then in a Muslim society he can take more wives. In a secular society, today many a women are willing to be one-night stands or just sexual friends without any strings attached. Not to mention prostitutes are in abundance in every society.

Although I`m not sure, but from readings the Pharoas, Roman and Greeks et al bedded their mothers and sisters mostly for power or wealth.

What drives a common person like Shakeel to molest his own progeny - children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces...etc???

BTW Urstruly, I like the question you`ve put forth here. Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent. I mean Saminasha and temporal is already getting personal...lol

:-)~~

Re: # 32

I am not sure I completely understand where you`re coming from. On the off chance that ShoreSahib got it wrong, let me see:

The history/mythological lesson was largely irrelevant. Consider: Once upon a time man was not man but primate and in all likelihood slept on trees. Then man evolved a bit and learnt to sleep under the tree. Soon he learnt the cave was mighty good for it was mighty dry. Later he learnt of fire and the joys of heat to sleepy man. Then he learnt to sleep on stuff. Stuff evolved to bed. Bed became waterbed, feather mattress, etc. Fire became hearth fire then central heating. Ergo, man is not condemned to live life exactly as he has lived it for eons. Little process called ``evolution``.

Secondly, learned behavior vs. instinctual - Little children wear diapers because their instinctual behavior is unacceptable while their learned behavior is much better and less smelly. Its this little concept called ``being civilized``.

Now, keeping this in context to your post to Samina and previous posts to Temporal as well who you are, I would venture a guess that you are actually building up to the point that libertarians ought to have no problems with things like child abuse because, well, they`re libertarians after all.

In case this is your point, pls look up the following words -
1. adult
2. child
3. consent
4. rape
5. abuse
6. sex

once you`ve looked that up [and pls get your doubts, if any, clarified] try to see the difference between 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 4 & 6, 3 & 5, and also the relation between 1 & 2, 3 & 6, 1 & 3, 2 & 3.

If all those numbers confuse you, copy and paste to your computer, and take your time thinking it over. No hurry.

There is a NATURAL revulsion against incestuous relations.....even animals abstain from it....ancient people may have ppracticed it.....but it doesn`t make it right.....there were perverts then too....they hailed from the same class as today`s perverts - rulers, religious priests.

t - and others

lets get some parameters agreed on first

(a) the piece here is fiction, it is not a social commentary as it stands
(b ) it is currently not backed up by fact
(c) It is extremely disturbing on two fronts (i) child molestation (ii) incest

at a personal level (mine) I think (c ) (i)&(ii) are not right and correct. (c)(i) more so since the trauma inflicted on the young person is untold and has a bearing on his or her life (the 60 odd years left after that).

What I said was that piece would be more effective had it had (b ) in some form either as an epilogue or prologue. This would have carried some weight and would have partially addressed (a). For this piece to be truly forceful, or to have an impact beyond merely making us throw up, it has be a commentary on our current state as a society. A society where such matters are either (a) swept under the carpet (out of sight out of mind) or (b) where we do not accept that such things happen (note there is a difference between the two).

As it stands, this piece does two things almost simultaneously (a) it induces a sense of neausea (sp????) in many of us and (b) for those amongst us so inclined, it is titillating. This isthe case with such articles, and great care should be given before they are put out in that it should not do (b). That is my argument.

Now coming to the agreed parameters particularly (c), we need to distinguish c(i) and c(ii) here. urstruly, and other are tending to mix the two, or at the very least use them in an interchangeable manner. One has alwasy been a no-no with most religions, where as for the latter there is a religious sanction for it. We are however, living in the 21st century and we are pretty advanced in cognitive sciences and should realise that such things are not good from an emotional POV and also genetic POV. If the argument is based on c(ii), I am not going to enter into it for it is an individuals decision here. c(i) I say hang the turds from the nearest yardarm.

I think the ancient kings `married` their step mothers, aunts etc. not real mothers. If boytoys were accepted in ancient Greek circles and present day Kandahar, it (abnormal behavior) shouldn`t become the norm.

Monsters who commit incestuous crimes, should be tortured to death. Their souls should be tormented to death, so they do not return in the next life nor they rise on the judgement day.

Re: # 40 Amrita

Yes I am upto something. I am trying to understand why people are feeling so offended by the notion of incest. Is it because of their own personal values or it is because it has plagued the white people and usually discussing white people`s problems in their accent is considered quite fashionable. So if the people here feel repulsed because of their values, then I want to know what their value system is based upon.

If we further your theory of evolution the next logical question is what is wrong with ``child molestation``. I do not see any valid reason to feel repulsed by it. I mean if child is enjoying it and the adult is enjoying it then why should it be wrong. Yes there might be some perverts who might enjoy the physical pain they inflict upon child but such people also exist in the category who chose adults as their sexual partners and inflict pain upon adult partners, especially upon prostitutes, so lets keep this issue separate. I belive that with the ``evolution`` of medical technology and as our knowledge of our physical selves is evolving, pain or other physical uncomfort is quite managebale. So why not let individuals enjoy themselves with whomever they chose to regardless of sex or age. I want to know why.

#42 incest of the form in this piece is not what I was discussing in #42....just clarification

Re: # 42
dotty - ok, from my perspective:

a. this peice is fiction and social commentary. but it is possible that our definitions differ. I take social commentary as twofold, 1. a comment on society 2. an illustration of society. This is not 1 but it is defintely 2. And this is not an ``article``, it is a ``story`` and that is an important difference.

b. Yes, this peice is not backed by figures - but as a story, and not an article, it is the author`s prerogative as to whether she wants to include any. In this absence, such figures and facts would tend to come up in the interactions. I dont want to speak for Sajal, but I feel if she has made you think then she has done the job of a fiction writer. Of course, the job you have in mind is quite different and would come more under the ambit of article.

c. Absolutely. As for titillation, people putting things to improper use is always a concern but you cant stop writing fiction or even memoir on the off chance that it might be used for purposes unwished for. For the average person, this peice might be graphic but not pornographic.

Re: # 46
Amrita jee,
You have hit the nail right on the head.
Thank you for your point of view and preventing Dotty from imposing his ridiculous point of view on this story.
Yes, it is fiction.
It is social commentary as well.
It is supposed to make us think.

Why were the scenes regarding child sexual abuse included in Monsoon Wedding, a story.

Because, through use of fiction, a heinous and rarely discussed reality was brought infront of the sensibilities of the audience when they least expected or wanted to deal with it.

Sajal`s story performs a similar function. You dont expect it, you dont want to get sick to your stomach. You dont want to deal with this issue or think about it. But reading about it, forces you to think, forces you to create a dialogue because it would be even sicker not to do so.

Also, the ``YOU`` is a collective you, and I am not referring to your person. I am sure you knew that but just making sure.

By the way, Amrita jee, I really enjoy your posts. Please do keep writing.
Hugs

Re: # 44
Urstruly, there is something more than physical pain - there is psychological trauma. Also, there is the psychological effect of early sexualization which has been fairly well documented and you can find plenty of reading material that will tell you far more competently than I can why child molestation is harmful.

Personally speaking, I would be traumatized if my father - who is a wonderful man and whom I adore - were to make sexual advances to me. The pain might not be physical, but it would defintely be emotional and psychological. I feel terrible just imagining it and this is entirely an emotional reaction stemming from psychological impulses. Why dont you apply it to yourself - how would you feel if your father or mother were to make sexual advances to you? [and i dont say this in a mean spirited way but in the same spirit of enquiry as you]. When you have a child, son or daughter, how would you feel about them? Sexually? Would it be all right by you if your child, [6, 7, 8, years old] was found in the bed of another adult, possibly one related to you?

In the meantime, that list of words I gave you and their corelation pretty much sums it up.

Now, regarding incest - which is an entirely different thing - it is not a western issue, but an universal issue. And it leads to genetic problems [quite apart from any moral qualms one might have] which is the best possible reason, if you dont find it morally reprehensible, to stay away from it.

Urstruly Sahib:

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to suggest here. Are you implying that those people who find incest or child molestation reprehensible from a secular but nevertheless moral/ethical framework shouldn’t do so? That it is only from a religious/God-based perspective that one can deign to find incest an egregious moral trespass?

I hope that’s not what you are saying because at the end of the day why should it matter? Incest or child molestation in any culture (muslim or non-muslim) is an atrocity. An adult imposing him/her self on a non-consenting child is wrong and should be taken to task for it. I mean attributing value to another human being/child and respecting their rights should prevent one from inflicting an emotional, psychological and physical violation as this.

Re: # 48
ps:
evolution - for something to evolve into the next step, it is usually a new thing - standing upright, moving indoors, sleeping on beds, cooking food, eating off plates... they`re all a step up. child abuse is neither new nor is it something thats bettering our lives.

[I`m sure someone is going to bring up homosexuality right about now so let me address that: homosexuality is a sexual encounter between two consenting adults. Is it bettering our lives? Yes, because you are granting adults their sexual freedom. If one man rapes another man or one man has sex with young boy who may/may not be related to him and may/ may not be gay himself, it is wrong. These are all nuances and you have to work really hard at understanding them. And this paragraph is entirely beside the main topic and stated only to keep the discussion on the main topic. thank you. ]

enjoyment - cocaine is very enjoyable too, I hear, but does all kinds of nasty things to your body. On the psychological effects of little children who enjoyed being touched, pls visit your nearest book store to find books addressing the issue. I once heard Oprah Winfrey talk about her own experiences to some other kids who also suffered abuse and experienced sexual pleasure and that entire conversation still disturbs me when I think about it.

ShoreSahib - its plain ol Amrita, thank you, and ditto. :)

#38 by ntsyed:

BTW Urstruly, I like the question you`ve put forth here. Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.

the question posed in #32 by Urstruly referred in #38 is:

So my question, again is, what is so wrong sleeping with one`s daughter? Why it is dsiturbing to saminashah and why it irks temporal.

---

re: #38:

sir:

i recall you mentioning you`re a father of 2 or 3 adolescent daughters... i would be interested in learning your answer to urstruly`s query?

rgds

t

#51 by temporal
That was not necessary!

Amrita,

I think you are missing the point urstruly is articulating. His question is fairly simple. Under what value system would you oppose the father and daughter sexual relations? His contention is that only religion(s) provides that framework or the value system, which forbids the incest relationship. Since secular or liberal have no code written or otherwise to guide the society on this behavior.

I think he has a valid point and it is most likely that the incest, rape or even child molestation were declared unacceptable behaviors including Gay relations and now Gay marriages by all religions.

His reasoning is that if liberals and secularists support Gays and Gay marriages, then how could they possibly oppose incest?
I think you need to articulate a response to him instead of talking about the issues that are after the incest either physical or emotional.

Urstruly, do you agree with interpretation?

Re: # 52 HP

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say/ask.

Re: # 52
Dear Amrita,
You better answer this!!

Temporal Bhai,
Your question was brilliant and poignant considering NtfakeSyed`s perpetual cranial flatulence.

RE# HP,

Dear HP sahib,

I wrote this piece so I don`t know why you are having the feeling of deja vu.........

The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

HP sahib,

according to the dictionary incest is defined as,

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

HP one doesnt need to be a genius to answer this question. as u rightly pointed out (and amrita was trying to hint at in a previous post) there is a distinction between incest and child rape/molestation. the law has nothing against incest as long as both parties are above the age of consent. in case they are below it is treated as rape and the punishment is severe because of a violation of trust by one whom society entrusted with this reponsibility. and because the violated was considered incapable of making a sound judgement in this regard (along with others such as drinking, driving, voting etc).

Re: # 46

I would prefer to call this an article. Calling it an article, provides a framework for criticising it and there is no category which will oppose the article or the material. For as a story, it interests three sets of people
(a) those like who feel moved by it and think these guys should be locked and the key chucked away
(b ) the people who get titillated by the subject matter and the materail
(c) the people who dislike the set of (b ) and their rationale is different from those of (a) and would prefer that such stories not be put out for it stops a source of titillation

I am in (a) so are you and so are other along with the author. Urstruly, if I could so categorise him, falls into (c).

Indeed, I think the reaction you are getting from the likes of urstruly, is very much similar to what you would have at the thoought of ADULT PORNOGRAPHY appearing here on chowk. Isnt that the reason why people protest against the TOPLESS GIRLS of Page Three in many a tabloid.

Going down the route of a story, you need to be extremely careful as to what you put out. The argument COULD BE MADE that this is child pornography - it is a story for the nonces - and nonces have no place amongst us. thus I would prefer to call it an article, and to make this is psuedo-article some sort of a fottnote, epilogue, prologue whatever should have been there.

An article can be criticised for the contents, analysis, portrayal etc. A damned story - its only LITERARY criticism that can be done. If you want to do anything else THEN MAKE IT A SOCIAL COMMENTARY!

#56 Sajal,


I hope my feeling of Deja vu is unreal-:)

That is dictionary meaning and every society would define ``closely related`` or ``near relatives`` differently.

Is their any word for incest in Urdu or Hindi or any other Indain languages? and how is it defined there.

The incest is only between a father or daughter or blood brother and sister. Rest of the relations can have sex as long as they are legally able to based on different cultures.

Only religions and customs govern/define who cannot have sex but all religions and customs agree that father daughter, sister brother sex is unacceptable.

#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

in a related subject story in the Toronto Star of today there is front page story that traces a porn ring abusing children and infants nabbed witht he help of TO police ... will post the link later

rgds

t

urstruly:

since this is relevant to this discussion may i ask if you have any children of your own? and if you do of what sex and ages?

if you feel this is too intrusive, disregard

rgds

t

Re: # 60 60 by temporal on May 27, 2005 1:35pm PT
#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

no you are really insulting our intelligence here.Are you living in some sort of a coccoon insulated from the rest of the universe....baaahhh! you are really not being serious..

Urstruly & HP - I think you both are being a bit disingeneuous (sp???) here. What is your opinion of the following

(a) sex between a 35 year old and a 10 year old

(b) sex between a 35 year old and a 20 year old
(age of consent and all that apllies to (b )).

Here were not associating geneological relationships to these two cases as yet.

It has nothing to do with religious dissapproval or approval. It is natural revulsion.

sajal,

a well-written piece. i was frankly not quite ready to read another piece about molestation here (and no matter how some want to frame this, this story is about molestation and manipulation), but the story and some of the comments are worth responding to.

first of all, fiction, and literature are not outside the realm of social commentary. some of the finest works of fiction have social commentary as an element, if not intended by the author, then from the reader. elie wiesel`s ``night``, dostoevsky`s ``the brothers karamazov``, ismat chughtai`s ``lihaaf``, manto`s works, these are seen as fictional works that involve social commentary. if there are people who want to call this an article rather than story, then that is their choice, but it is not entirely accurate to say that fiction is just for literary criticism and beyond the realm of social commentary. edward said was among many things, a literary critic, and he examined works from a sociopolitical vantage point.

we could argue forever about incest as taboo, or not taboo, and while everyone looks at the subject of incest from their own prism (or a collective one based on ``collective`` values), we are not all going to agree on the nature of incest. and the parameters of incest vary from culture to culture. having said that, i do not wish to be mistaken for speaking in favor of incest. i don`t know what people involved in this argument are trying to establish, but if we look at this story, and other similar stories (if this is a deja-vu, it`s because it is not an entirely unfamiliar one, just one we ignore sometimes), this is a story of molestation and manipulation. calling it incest and not molestation does not change the fact that the two children , sara is molested, and maryam is about to experience the manipulation. many daughters want to be daddy`s special girl but not like this, and the ultimate betrayal in this story is not just the incest, it is the love and the special feeling that shakeel destroys by his actions.

Re: # 63 Mr. Dots

I am glad that you brought in the age of consent in this discussion. The fact of the matter is that the age of consent is again arbitrarily chosen and in the present world even in secular societies it is chosen to satisfy some pre-existing religious value. For example, in West 8-9 year old girls routinely get pregnant. The sexual act between pre-adolescents start way before the onset of puberty. The point is that human beings are capable of performing way before any arbitrarily set ``age of consent``. The individuals who do that do it with their consent. The phrase ``koi aa jai gaa`` is used not only to express ones consent but its real purpose is to save oneself from social stigma. So the question is, that if a child consents to have sex with an adult then what is wrong with that. That is the point I raised with Amrita which HP further elaborated.

#63
Dotman,

You know the answers! What is the relavence? The issue is what governs the incest relationship? Liberals have contradictory stand on this issue. They approve of gay marriages but disapprove of incest even though both prohibitions are derived from the religions and all religions regard them sexual as well as moral offences and pervert behavior.

As Hindvi pointed out the Law deals with incest as child molestation or Rape if both are adults.

#66 So the question is, that if a child consents to have sex with an adult then what is wrong with that.

Urstruly sahib, I dont want to answer this question. I leave it to you to answer it yourself.

Let me leave with with the third category to the two in #63

(c ) sex between to people aged 10 years respectively.

I will cut and paste the previous here you give the full range

(a) sex between a 35 year old and a 10 year old

(b) sex between a 35 year old and a 20 year old

(c)sex between to people aged 10 years

- on a personal note: what is your personal preference here.....you dont need to answer this...

Urstruly,
you are running wild with it. Incest would remain incest with or without consent. As incest has no age limit on it.

I agree that age is arbitrarily chosen and it is done to satisfy the law and intervention. From religious POV, sex after puberty is fine and there is no age limit on that. The problem with religion is that it can declare something wrong but it has no way of enforcing or punishing the wrong. Local laws intervene at this time and define the age limit. Law argues whether the consent is legal or illegal.
I totally agree with you that except religion there is is nothing that can forbid incest but religion has to rely on the society to find the appropriate punishment.

Or I will put it this way. The religion provides direction/lead to the society in this matter.
There is no other justification for opposing the incest.

Re: # 69 HP

I agree with your post. But the issue of consent is also important. For example, a secular society can only prohibit sex with minors because a minor, especially female, may not be able to bear the consequences of the sexual encounter. For eaxmple a nine year old girl, might not be able to support a baby all by herself unless her family or state takes responsibility of that child. But again family is a religious concept and you want to preserve the institution of a family then we must remove all factors that threaten its existence; and if abortion or birth control can protect her from having a baby then it takes away the burden from the state as well. Therefore, I see no problem with having sex with a minor. What if the sexual partners are an adult male and a minor male - no problem there; and if it is between an adult female and a minor male. no problem there either. Similarly a case can be made in case of every possible combination.

#70 Urstruly, for a moment there I thought you were talking about the physical and psychological consequences of being pregnant at age 10 when you said `` because a minor, especially female, may not be able to bear the consequences of the sexual encounter``.

But you outdid yourself by following up with ``For eaxmple a nine year old girl, might not be able to support a baby all by herself unless her family or state takes responsibility of that child.``

and then hop onto family being a religious construct.

You are not connecting the dots properly. Your jumping and missing major issues. A 9 or 10 year old giving birth to a baby - when this 9 or 10 year old is not even out of nappies, and has no maturity to tak ecare of the baby emotionally. Not to talk of the actual physical stress of child biorth - the poor girl will not be able to take it all. That is why AGE OF CONSENT comes in. And yet you talk of everything else....
It is based on sound science - and for a man of science to talk such pure goobledegook and to take mind numbingly obscrutantist positions - is an indication of failure of education more than anything else.

I think for my own sanity I will quit at this point.......

Re: # 69
you are running wild with it. Incest would remain incest with or without consent

A sentiment I will agree with ....(T)

Re: # 71

In my post I took care of the issue of child birth either by contraceptives or abortion provided by state. The point is, other than pregnancy, there is no problem with having sex with a minor girl. As far as the emotional and psychological trauma of minors are concerned, these are the societal constructs and it has nothing to do with what we call `human nature``. A society that is permissive of incest and child sex will have no such issues. But if a daughter finds her father, physically repulsive and do not want to have sex with him, even then society may or may not intervene. It is also arbitrary.

I would like to highlight a couple of points.

1.Consent is important. Any minor who is unable to forsee the consequences of his/her actions cannot consent- be it surgery/sex /buying alcohol, cigarettes or casting a vote.Such children are under the care of their guardians/parents and unfortunately betrayed some times as in this case.This is abuse whether an insestous realtionship or baby battering. There can be no difference of opinon about this.

2.A question arises if in an incestous relationship the involved parties are adult.They
havent violated law by doing so.But still this is unacceptable.why? The answer is beacuse of religious/social reasons.
But the point is if these people were to come up with the aurgument of exploring their sexualities and saying that they were mature adults, what would one be able to do about it.
The religious group could argue that this was not permisible by religion.What kind of arguement can the seculars provide?
And finally if the religious group can criticise this relation,should they not by the same argument be able to criticise gay/lesbian relationships?

Are we moving towards a society where adult sexual relations are not abnormal irrespective of whether they are same sex or incestous.While some people would call such a society degenerate, others would call it a free society.

---

here is the story of child molestation i had mentioned earlier:

Toronto police have helped crack another international child abuse and pornography case, this time in Spain, where police have arrested five men suspected of raping babies and peddling images of the abuse on the Internet.

Madrid police yesterday announced they had smashed an alleged pedophile ring of five men, two of them computer specialists, and charged them with abducting, raping and abusing nine children between 11 months and 6 years old.

``I have been a judge for many years ... and I have seen many things and really, never have I seen images of such abject brutality,`` Spanish Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso said in Madrid.

click for full report:
City police help crack Spanish child porn ring

---

brother urstruly:

islam zindabad!...

keep weaving your web of deceit around little saras of this world with your mental gymnastics

Honestly, is it so difficult to understand that in Sajal’s story there’s an issue of a power dynamic (i.e. one party (the father) has all of the power)? The girl is unable to give informed consent and is thereby rendered powerless. It is the same argument that arises with rape. It is quite simply a sexual crime. There should be no ifs, ands, or buts on this issue.

So, then my religious friends counter, what about consensual incest, is that ok? Because if liberals permit homosexuality due to its’ consensual nature then by extension they should also allow incest. In other words, liberals can’t scream that incest is unnatural because by that token so is homosexuality (unnatural that is). If you’re going to embrace one then better be prepared to embrace the other. Wow, what a cohesive argument.

You know I’m personally not an atheist, in fact far from it. Although why I need to explain my faith or lack thereof is beyond me. Last I checked, a girl’s faith/imaan was between she and her God.

However, I say this to make a point: Inspite of my faith I refuse to look at the World with those glasses…you know the ones I’m talking about….the sanctimonious ones…the ones through which everything appears either black or white and people are either good or bad. Perhaps it’s my naïve idealism speaking but on an issue of this magnitude do we really need to be intransigent on ideological differences while buggers like Shakeel are destroying more lives!

Not everything has to be about religion. Sometimes it just is what it is.

``Not everything has to be about religion. Sometimes it just is what it is.``

That may be the most important revelation in the history of (wo)man.

Urstruly,
Okay, a couple of things –

First of all, however much religion may come into play here, to say that secular society has no morals is the height of bigotry and ignorance. Secular society disapproves of a number of things including robbery, murder, rape, etc. Their thought might be derived from religion [although it is never just one religion and is also based on legal, philosophic and mass movements in other states], but their execution is based on the effect it has on citizenry.

I was plenty sure that homosexuality is coming into the picture, and I have addressed that in post 50. pls refer and also understand the last three sentences of that particular para.

Urstruly, pls look up that list of words – no, I really mean it – and then we can have a discussion. Also when you answer the questions posed in post 48, pls try and answer from a human perspective not a religious one and let’s see where that takes us.

As for the “innate” human behavior – I have already addressed that issue and have explained why humans should and are capable of incorporating learned behaviors. Unless you feel diapering has a religious base too?

The dismissive attitude towards psychology is a little more puzzling – from “a man of science”, Dotty said? – because childhood trauma goes on to affect adults. If this is news to you, let me be the first to inform you. You can learn more in detail by visiting your nearest book shop.

Also, I don’t know where you have seen 10 yr olds regularly having sex in the West, but I hope you immediately informed the authorities even if you felt that was the norm.

this article is interesting at many levels. Interesting in that it is extremely disturbing. Interesting in that is is describing the power shakeel has over the kid - read that last line.
But it doenot answer any issue associated with child molestation, child pornography, incest or whatsoever.

If this hadnt appeared on Chowk, I woud I would say that this is what paedophiles of this world write and read (even that damned last line, can change its meaning) and we would all be arrested for this.

But, hey, these 78 posts indicated otherwise. It should have been expected that Urstruly would have taken this line, and the others lining up on the other side. Both respectfully circling each other, waiting for the other to slip up.

Re: # 51

Temper, temper, temper.... lol

Like I said in #38: ``Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.``

FOCUS, babe.....FOCUS!



#52 by HP

``#51 by temporal
That was not necessary!``

I`m much obliged, Sir!

tasleemaat :-)~~



#54 by ShoreSahib

``Temporal Bhai,
Your question was brilliant and poignant considering NtfakeSyed`s perpetual cranial flatulence.``

Mehdi Hassan: ``ye dhuan sa...khaaan se uth`ta haaaaaiiiii...``

siiiiigh....I couldn`t have found anything so befitting SS`s state if good old Mehdi Hassan hadn`t crooned it so magnificently.

Kyon Bhai-Bunno, cigar pe baith k huqqa p rahay thay kya?
ya huqqay ki chilum pe baith k cigar?

AGAIN:
Like I said in #38: ``Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.``

:-)~~

Ntsyed Sahib:
#38, #51

I understand completely the question Urstruly Sahib or yourself have posed (please read posts #49 and #76). What I don’t understand is why you (or anyone else) prefer to assert a values framework instead of discussing the issue at hand (i.e. the abuse of a child by her father). Could you and/or anyone else please explain that to me.

from almost the beginning of the interacts here, this story was described as a ``white people`s story.`` from that moment on a judgment was attached to this which is being explained in various ways.

as miriam put it so succinctly, there is a power dynamic at work here in this story, and there is a power dynamic involved when a man/woman who is an authority figure in a child`s life is involved in sexual relations with her/him. . . a child ``consenting`` to sex assumes that a child is aware of what the sexual act involves and that is simply NOT the case for most of the children involved. a child is overpowered by confusion and fear, and the words of an elder telling him/her that he/she is loved more than anything on earth, or she is beautiful.

i was six years old when a stranger, a oily-haired man who looked all grown-up to me with a moustache was unzipping my trousers, telling me how nice they looked, and touching me in an area i had little awareness of save that it was ``there``. if my siblings hadn`t rescued me, there is no telling what could have happened. i was very frightened and confused. and this didn`t happen in farangi lands, this happened in lahore, on a college campus. it wasn`t a family member, but had my father, or my elder brother done this i would have been no less confused or frightened. and because of my paralysis from fear, what happened to me was determined as being my fault, as my father`s reaction showed us the next day.
it is all well and good for us to attach incest to religion, or a value system, but really, a value system is NOT the issue here. an issue here is having sex with a child under the guise of love linked to abuse. and what has been disturbing about many of these interacts, is the assumption that a) a child is able to consent. and b) a child is fully aware of what he or she is consenting to. and it doesn`t look like we`re going to talk about that, if we keep harping on religious vs. secular value systems.

Re: # 81

miriamk Sahiba,

Today ain`t yer lucky day, either...not as of May 28, 2005 5:51am PT. Oooh.....yer`n early birdie, aincha? Or you couldn`t sleep?

Keep tryin` :-)~~

Ana:
#82

Thank you for sharing that story. No matter how many times I hear stories like that the feelings elicited are the same; intense anger for the person inflicting the abuse and terrible sadness/helplessness for the child in question.

I hope what you said drives the point home because it is quite evident that what I (and others) have been saying is falling on deaf ears :).

Re: # 81
Dear Miriamk,
I am sure you must have figured out that the hapless trio ( UrstrulySONOtTruly, EchoDoom and NtFakeSyed) seriously lack the testicular fortitude to discuss issues at hand. They would rather glorify the past and present glories of the version of their Islam. I think it stems from their deep sense of insecurity and an unconscious inferiority complex that instead of thinking for themselves as independent humans, they have to color everything with their ultra-conservative, misinformed, and very very misguided view of Islam.

U know Miriam Aapi,
I have realized that it is absolutely no use discussing issues with the hapless trio because our aims are totally different. You and I would like to discuss issues and create dialogue.
They would rather heckle, poke fun at liberal minded people and reiterate to ad infinitum their morally superior position on every known issue to WO(MANKIND).

Ntsyed sahib:
#83

That`s right Ntsyed sahib let`s discuss my sleeping and waking habits because I`m almost certain that`s what sajal intended. Nice tangent/diversion by the way! :).

If all of us seem to have missed this esoteric point why don`t you in your infinite and Yoda-ish wisdom enlighten us. Or is it more fun to play games when a serious topic of abuse is being discussed?

You know Ana,
I am a social worker and I work in close proximity with these so called White people.
They are just people, like any other peoples on the earth. They have the same problems, wishes, desires, ambitions like any from the South Asian community.

People like the Hapless Trio always want to create divisions and point fingers and make fun of the ``OTHER``. This ``OTher`` can be western societies or on a more personal level, those South Asians that have been blessed with good education and a liberal all inclusive mind set.

It is funny that Urstruly mentioned that girls get pregnant at the ages of eight and nine regularly in the West. Perhaps the ones he knows. I work with unwed pregnant women and girls, and I have yet to see or hear about a nine year old that ended up pregnant.
Mr. Urstruly`s reality testing is extremely poor.

Re: # 82
You know Ana, when I was nine I was sexually abused. I did not even know at the time what sex was, or what this man was doing was wrong.
I so totally agree with you.
You know it takes courage to admit in public that you were sexually molested.

God bless your heart.

Ana and Shore Sahib,

Perhaps Chowk and its interactors will one day be worthy enough to hear your ideas and input.

ana, miriam, shore, sammi, amrita, HP, dotty and others:

thoughtful posts...and thoughtful deliberations...up there i see this artilce has been read or clicked 1891 times...please keep up with your thoughtful posts...the majority of readers can easily discern between the posts of the insecuristas and the abdul hates

insecurista
n: singular

a person who displays one or more of the following symptoms:

a person who is insecure about his/her world view, mental outlook, physical self, who froth easily, provoke unnecessarily, have deep seated complexes camouflaged with righteous indignation, think s/he knows the value of everything when in reality s/he knows only the price, henpecked, in lousy relationships with their spouse and children, and a menace and a danger to themselves if left untreated e.g. most abdul-hates

Re: # 82 from almost the beginning of the interacts here, this story was described as a ``white people`s story.`` from that moment on a judgment was attached to this which is being explained in various ways.


The refuge of the blind, the mute, and the deaf. The image of three monkeys came to mind when I read this in the initial interacts. What is really appalling, and I know this for a fact since I have worked for and amongst these people, is the callous attitude of those around them - both relatives as well as friends. It is very much similar to the stories you women being paraded naked through streets not for doing anything illegal or being morally wrong, and for the legislated gang rape. All this done in front of gaping and gwaking crowds, and there is not one man (or any one even a woman) who dares lift his/her finger to help.

This discussion, wouldnt have gone in the direction of incest, and away from child molestation if the author and editors were a bit more careful, and provided a footnote, an epilogue or a prologue giving some facts and figures. At the very least, since, we are reading all of this using a web browser a damned link from where this could have been obtained, should have been provided.

Anyway all of this way to dipressing to discuss. The only way to tackle it right now it seems to to provide a framewokr of care for the victims.

Ana, Shore Sahib, Miriam and Sajal,

I understand your points about sexual assault not being limited to race, culture,