The Ultimate Betrayal

t - and others

lets get some parameters agreed on first

(a) the piece here is fiction, it is not a social commentary as it stands
(b ) it is currently not backed up by fact
(c) It is extremely disturbing on two fronts (i) child molestation (ii) incest

at a personal level (mine) I think (c ) (i)&(ii) are not right and correct. (c)(i) more so since the trauma inflicted on the young person is untold and has a bearing on his or her life (the 60 odd years left after that).

What I said was that piece would be more effective had it had (b ) in some form either as an epilogue or prologue. This would have carried some weight and would have partially addressed (a). For this piece to be truly forceful, or to have an impact beyond merely making us throw up, it has be a commentary on our current state as a society. A society where such matters are either (a) swept under the carpet (out of sight out of mind) or (b) where we do not accept that such things happen (note there is a difference between the two).

As it stands, this piece does two things almost simultaneously (a) it induces a sense of neausea (sp????) in many of us and (b) for those amongst us so inclined, it is titillating. This isthe case with such articles, and great care should be given before they are put out in that it should not do (b). That is my argument.

Now coming to the agreed parameters particularly (c), we need to distinguish c(i) and c(ii) here. urstruly, and other are tending to mix the two, or at the very least use them in an interchangeable manner. One has alwasy been a no-no with most religions, where as for the latter there is a religious sanction for it. We are however, living in the 21st century and we are pretty advanced in cognitive sciences and should realise that such things are not good from an emotional POV and also genetic POV. If the argument is based on c(ii), I am not going to enter into it for it is an individuals decision here. c(i) I say hang the turds from the nearest yardarm.

I think the ancient kings `married` their step mothers, aunts etc. not real mothers. If boytoys were accepted in ancient Greek circles and present day Kandahar, it (abnormal behavior) shouldn`t become the norm.

Monsters who commit incestuous crimes, should be tortured to death. Their souls should be tormented to death, so they do not return in the next life nor they rise on the judgement day.

#42 incest of the form in this piece is not what I was discussing in #42....just clarification

Urstruly Sahib:

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to suggest here. Are you implying that those people who find incest or child molestation reprehensible from a secular but nevertheless moral/ethical framework shouldn’t do so? That it is only from a religious/God-based perspective that one can deign to find incest an egregious moral trespass?

I hope that’s not what you are saying because at the end of the day why should it matter? Incest or child molestation in any culture (muslim or non-muslim) is an atrocity. An adult imposing him/her self on a non-consenting child is wrong and should be taken to task for it. I mean attributing value to another human being/child and respecting their rights should prevent one from inflicting an emotional, psychological and physical violation as this.

Re: # 51

Temper, temper, temper.... lol

Like I said in #38: ``Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.``

FOCUS, babe.....FOCUS!



#52 by HP

``#51 by temporal
That was not necessary!``

I`m much obliged, Sir!

tasleemaat :-)~~



#54 by ShoreSahib

``Temporal Bhai,
Your question was brilliant and poignant considering NtfakeSyed`s perpetual cranial flatulence.``

Mehdi Hassan: ``ye dhuan sa...khaaan se uth`ta haaaaaiiiii...``

siiiiigh....I couldn`t have found anything so befitting SS`s state if good old Mehdi Hassan hadn`t crooned it so magnificently.

Kyon Bhai-Bunno, cigar pe baith k huqqa p rahay thay kya?
ya huqqay ki chilum pe baith k cigar?

AGAIN:
Like I said in #38: ``Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.``

:-)~~

#38 by ntsyed:

BTW Urstruly, I like the question you`ve put forth here. Let`s see how many of them it takes to figure out the question and compose an intelligent answer without starting another tangent.

the question posed in #32 by Urstruly referred in #38 is:

So my question, again is, what is so wrong sleeping with one`s daughter? Why it is dsiturbing to saminashah and why it irks temporal.

---

re: #38:

sir:

i recall you mentioning you`re a father of 2 or 3 adolescent daughters... i would be interested in learning your answer to urstruly`s query?

rgds

t

Re: # 52 HP

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say/ask.

Re: # 52
Dear Amrita,
You better answer this!!

Temporal Bhai,
Your question was brilliant and poignant considering NtfakeSyed`s perpetual cranial flatulence.

#51 by temporal
That was not necessary!

Amrita,

I think you are missing the point urstruly is articulating. His question is fairly simple. Under what value system would you oppose the father and daughter sexual relations? His contention is that only religion(s) provides that framework or the value system, which forbids the incest relationship. Since secular or liberal have no code written or otherwise to guide the society on this behavior.

I think he has a valid point and it is most likely that the incest, rape or even child molestation were declared unacceptable behaviors including Gay relations and now Gay marriages by all religions.

His reasoning is that if liberals and secularists support Gays and Gay marriages, then how could they possibly oppose incest?
I think you need to articulate a response to him instead of talking about the issues that are after the incest either physical or emotional.

Urstruly, do you agree with interpretation?

RE# HP,

Dear HP sahib,

I wrote this piece so I don`t know why you are having the feeling of deja vu.........

The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

HP sahib,

according to the dictionary incest is defined as,

1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

HP one doesnt need to be a genius to answer this question. as u rightly pointed out (and amrita was trying to hint at in a previous post) there is a distinction between incest and child rape/molestation. the law has nothing against incest as long as both parties are above the age of consent. in case they are below it is treated as rape and the punishment is severe because of a violation of trust by one whom society entrusted with this reponsibility. and because the violated was considered incapable of making a sound judgement in this regard (along with others such as drinking, driving, voting etc).

#56 Sajal,


I hope my feeling of Deja vu is unreal-:)

That is dictionary meaning and every society would define ``closely related`` or ``near relatives`` differently.

Is their any word for incest in Urdu or Hindi or any other Indain languages? and how is it defined there.

The incest is only between a father or daughter or blood brother and sister. Rest of the relations can have sex as long as they are legally able to based on different cultures.

Only religions and customs govern/define who cannot have sex but all religions and customs agree that father daughter, sister brother sex is unacceptable.

Re: # 60 60 by temporal on May 27, 2005 1:35pm PT
#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

no you are really insulting our intelligence here.Are you living in some sort of a coccoon insulated from the rest of the universe....baaahhh! you are really not being serious..

#58:

as the writer says succinctly in #55 The main purpose of writing this story was to see what people think about child sexual abuse and incest.

all comments can emanate from this vantage point

in a related subject story in the Toronto Star of today there is front page story that traces a porn ring abusing children and infants nabbed witht he help of TO police ... will post the link later

rgds

t

urstruly:

since this is relevant to this discussion may i ask if you have any children of your own? and if you do of what sex and ages?

if you feel this is too intrusive, disregard

rgds

t