Bina Shah June 1, 2005
#35 Posted by temporal on June 2, 2005 7:12:14 pm
hunh?
#24 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:43am PT
#25 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:45am PT
#27 by temporal on June 2, 2005 1:09pm PT
#29 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 1:42pm PT
#24 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:43am PT
#25 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:45am PT
#27 by temporal on June 2, 2005 1:09pm PT
#29 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 1:42pm PT
#34 Posted by teshah on June 2, 2005 6:57:15 pm
Re: # 23
My question to female gender!
If the women like the feudals like Khar what the poor would do to quench their urge for sex? Either to fast as advised by Islam or try to rape which every woman would perhaps wish to undergo especially after Mukhtaran mai`s shamelessness has been glamourized by the NGOs in the name of Women`s Rights? I would advise women not to make it a gender issue which shows that the woman is not a human being but a sub-human sex-object.
My question to female gender!
If the women like the feudals like Khar what the poor would do to quench their urge for sex? Either to fast as advised by Islam or try to rape which every woman would perhaps wish to undergo especially after Mukhtaran mai`s shamelessness has been glamourized by the NGOs in the name of Women`s Rights? I would advise women not to make it a gender issue which shows that the woman is not a human being but a sub-human sex-object.
#33 Posted by ana on June 2, 2005 3:52:05 pm
dear manto. . .
i could have confused the two. . but i could have sworn i saw that listed as his last name when i looked at his page a coupla months ago. . . khair, better off not talking about either h`s. more important things at hand here.
thanks for the correction. :)
i could have confused the two. . but i could have sworn i saw that listed as his last name when i looked at his page a coupla months ago. . . khair, better off not talking about either h`s. more important things at hand here.
thanks for the correction. :)
#32 Posted by anil on June 2, 2005 3:46:16 pm
Re: # 25
Bina:
In Urstruly`s (#25) post: Nazish Bhatti`s eyes show a scared and fearful girl. Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil. Can anyone now with evil intentions come closer to Mukthar Mai to gang rape and abuse her?
This transformation is possible only through empowerment of women. Mukthar Mai now feels empowered. No law, no system can achieve empowerment, they can at best be helpful. Sridhar is correct the rape incidences in Kerala are the lowest. Women literacy there ranks with the west, while Bihar and eastern U.P. are completely opposite in women empowerment and rape incidences.
A few months back, a Pakistani friend had invited me to a fund raiser in Silicon Valley for girls education and empowerment, I was very happy to give in my contribution.
Media must lend voice to women before they become victim. As they say in the U.S. that the most rapists are coward, and with scream for help and self-defense, the rapist run for their life. This, no doubt, is an individual example from the west, where an individual can feel empowered and therefore safe, but the message and method are valid for every where, even for Paksitan and India. Even the most powerful fuedal and his gang of potential rapists, and members of Jirga would not be able to stand up to the determination of 1,000 villagers, who would no longer be silent witnesses to the crime that thru tradition and religion have been brainwashed to believe it the law.
How do you bring this change, is the question? To me empowerment of girls and women is the only answer. Everyone of these slient witnesses have mothers, wives, sisters and daughters, therefore, only they can transform their father, husband, brothers and sons from remaining approving and silent witnesses into a determined group to change people from committing crime in the name of tradition, religion and yes, law.
Anil Kapuria
Bina:
In Urstruly`s (#25) post: Nazish Bhatti`s eyes show a scared and fearful girl. Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil. Can anyone now with evil intentions come closer to Mukthar Mai to gang rape and abuse her?
This transformation is possible only through empowerment of women. Mukthar Mai now feels empowered. No law, no system can achieve empowerment, they can at best be helpful. Sridhar is correct the rape incidences in Kerala are the lowest. Women literacy there ranks with the west, while Bihar and eastern U.P. are completely opposite in women empowerment and rape incidences.
A few months back, a Pakistani friend had invited me to a fund raiser in Silicon Valley for girls education and empowerment, I was very happy to give in my contribution.
Media must lend voice to women before they become victim. As they say in the U.S. that the most rapists are coward, and with scream for help and self-defense, the rapist run for their life. This, no doubt, is an individual example from the west, where an individual can feel empowered and therefore safe, but the message and method are valid for every where, even for Paksitan and India. Even the most powerful fuedal and his gang of potential rapists, and members of Jirga would not be able to stand up to the determination of 1,000 villagers, who would no longer be silent witnesses to the crime that thru tradition and religion have been brainwashed to believe it the law.
How do you bring this change, is the question? To me empowerment of girls and women is the only answer. Everyone of these slient witnesses have mothers, wives, sisters and daughters, therefore, only they can transform their father, husband, brothers and sons from remaining approving and silent witnesses into a determined group to change people from committing crime in the name of tradition, religion and yes, law.
Anil Kapuria
#31 Posted by Dash_Dot on June 2, 2005 3:06:02 pm
#25 urstruly you put the finger, no forget it, put just punched the point home...sad but true. THere is no point in shouting yourself hoarse over it. You need to empower the women (as i said on the othe rthread) and as rsridhar has said here. Empowerment is not just literacy, but knowledge of rights. The moment this is done you will witness miracles. An educated mother is often a great softener attitudes in men, and a giver of spine to women.
Look forward to your article.
Look forward to your article.
#30 Posted by shobig_sifar on June 2, 2005 2:57:31 pm
[Usually we in Pakistan expect the rich to champion the cause of the poor, we expect men to champion the cause of women, and adults to champion the cause of children.]
... thats our dilemma, indeed. very aptly said Bina.
Wish we all could live up to the spirit of Mukhtara Mai. Salutations to her and her courage.
great article Bina, an eye-opener and a reinvigorator.
Urstruly #25 Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words...the motherly and womanly determination on her face tells a lot about her stance in the name of justice!
... thats our dilemma, indeed. very aptly said Bina.
Wish we all could live up to the spirit of Mukhtara Mai. Salutations to her and her courage.
great article Bina, an eye-opener and a reinvigorator.
Urstruly #25 Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words...the motherly and womanly determination on her face tells a lot about her stance in the name of justice!
#28 Posted by rsridhar on June 2, 2005 1:35:03 pm
re: This article
Indeed, Mukhtaran Mai`s courage is commendable. I am not sure i agree to author`s claim that her actions have produced many changes in the Pak society. Would the author care to explain what these changes are?
Pak is a feudalistic society. Rapes happen even in western society but is dealt as a crime and the criminals are punished. In Pak, this is not just rape but a humiliation perpetrated on the women by men and this is done legally, in front of a crowd. What a shame?
Has Mukhtaran Mai`s case produced any change in the feudal structure of the country? Have the criminals been punished?
The only solution i see is the empowerment of women in villages through a democratic process. While caste based rapes are common in UP and Bihar, they hardly heppen in Kerala because Kerala has empowered its women. That is why the lieteracy rate is high there.
Let Pakis who worry about these things first kick their dictator out and usher in a people`s democracy. Otherwise, let them shut up and not shed crocodile tears on this or any other forum.
Sridhar
Indeed, Mukhtaran Mai`s courage is commendable. I am not sure i agree to author`s claim that her actions have produced many changes in the Pak society. Would the author care to explain what these changes are?
Pak is a feudalistic society. Rapes happen even in western society but is dealt as a crime and the criminals are punished. In Pak, this is not just rape but a humiliation perpetrated on the women by men and this is done legally, in front of a crowd. What a shame?
Has Mukhtaran Mai`s case produced any change in the feudal structure of the country? Have the criminals been punished?
The only solution i see is the empowerment of women in villages through a democratic process. While caste based rapes are common in UP and Bihar, they hardly heppen in Kerala because Kerala has empowered its women. That is why the lieteracy rate is high there.
Let Pakis who worry about these things first kick their dictator out and usher in a people`s democracy. Otherwise, let them shut up and not shed crocodile tears on this or any other forum.
Sridhar
#27 Posted by temporal on June 2, 2005 1:09:26 pm
urstruly #25:
poor nazish bhatti...
can i make a suggestion? since you are more familiar with her case, why don`t you pen an article for chowk?
rgds
t
poor nazish bhatti...
can i make a suggestion? since you are more familiar with her case, why don`t you pen an article for chowk?
rgds
t
#26 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 2, 2005 12:01:08 pm
Re: # 23
Romair,
You should read My Feudal Lord by Tehmina Durrani.
Romair,
You should read My Feudal Lord by Tehmina Durrani.
#25 Posted by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:45:35 am
PAKISTANI CONSCIENCE ACTUALLY DESRVE IT
NAZISH BHATTI

MUKHTARAN MAI
#24 Posted by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:43:08 am
The NGOs and their local agents take interest in Mukhtar Mai`s case for two reasons:
1. It gives them better exposure to their master puppeteers i.e. Western anti-Muslim agencies and think tanks.
2. Taking up an issue with Mukhtar Mai`s case does not pit them against the dictator - i.e. the muscle that enforces their agenda.
As compared to Mukhtar Mai no NGO or any of their agent has taken any interest in the case of Nazish Bhatti who was gang raped by police officials in Sialkot couple of months ago. Despite the fact that Nazish Bhatti and her father threatened to self-immulate themselves in front of the legislature there is no NGO taking up her case; and that is because of two reasons:
1. The case has less or no exposure in front of their Western masters. So why waste breath.
2. And the main reason is that, that taking up Nazish Bhatti`s case will pit them against the fascist dictators machinery because it is the government officials that are involved in the gang rape of this unfortunate girl. Why demoralize the muscle that enforces their agenda.
#23 Posted by Romair on June 2, 2005 10:32:49 am
Is Meerwala in the Muzzafargarh area?
The ruling feudal of that area is a man named Ghulam Mustafa Khar. He was, amongst other things, the Chief Minister of Punjab at one point. Khar, and others like him, are a perfect example of the two-faced existence that such feudals practice........
Khar has a daughter who is a supermodel. She writes for liberal magazine(s), including issues like women`s rights. He also has a son, who allegedly threw acid on a girl. Apparently, the case was dropped due to pressure by Khar. Khar, himself, has gone through eight or nine wives. However, if you see him speak on TV, he will seem like the most urbane and progressive politician........
These are the individuals who are the real culprits. Nothing happens in their areas, without their permission and influence. No panchyat. No gang-rape. Nothing. And until the are disintegrated and any group/party they represent disenfranchised, nothing will change.......
The ruling feudal of that area is a man named Ghulam Mustafa Khar. He was, amongst other things, the Chief Minister of Punjab at one point. Khar, and others like him, are a perfect example of the two-faced existence that such feudals practice........
Khar has a daughter who is a supermodel. She writes for liberal magazine(s), including issues like women`s rights. He also has a son, who allegedly threw acid on a girl. Apparently, the case was dropped due to pressure by Khar. Khar, himself, has gone through eight or nine wives. However, if you see him speak on TV, he will seem like the most urbane and progressive politician........
These are the individuals who are the real culprits. Nothing happens in their areas, without their permission and influence. No panchyat. No gang-rape. Nothing. And until the are disintegrated and any group/party they represent disenfranchised, nothing will change.......
#22 Posted by Romair on June 2, 2005 9:57:53 am
The way to solve such problems is to look at the collective cause. So that such events do not occur, to begin with. Once they have occured, then all one can do is admire the courage of someone who speaks out. But that does not solve the problem.......
The root cause of such events is the jagirdarana/feudal based system in Pakistan. Invariably, an overwhelming amount of such events occur in feudal Punjab and feudal Sind (don`t know about Baluchistan). They cannot occur without the approval of the local MNAs and MPAs, because they are the ones who control the areas, and influence the panchayats. It is in their interest to keep this system going, so that they don`t have to give up their influence to federal laws.........
I saw an interview of an MPA in Sind on BBC. Someone was passing a similar decision in a Jirga, in his area, regarding a woman having an alleged affair. He approved of the decision, on camera. The BBC reporter asked him, how in the world he could approve such a decision, against a woman. He talked about tribal traditions etc. etc.
This whole system needs to be dismantled. There is no place in Pakistan, where I have lived, and seen first-hand, where woman are more of a commodity than in feudal Pakistan. Not urban Pakistan, not religious Pakistan, not non-feudal rural Pakistan, nor military-Pakistan.
As long as this powerful feudal group dominates the politics of Pakistan, nothing will ever change for future Mukhtar Mai`s. They project themselves as progressives in Lahore and Karachi. However, in their own areas, the practice the extreme form of repression and backwardness. In fact, I am surprised the MNA of the area wasn`t able to suppress this case, through political influence...........
Does anyone have the name of the MNA and/or MPA of the area, where this incidence occured? It would be interesting to see who he was ,and whether he initially tried to suppress this..............And whether he authorized the panchayat, to begin with.........I would also be interested in finding out where his own daughters study, etc.......
The root cause of such events is the jagirdarana/feudal based system in Pakistan. Invariably, an overwhelming amount of such events occur in feudal Punjab and feudal Sind (don`t know about Baluchistan). They cannot occur without the approval of the local MNAs and MPAs, because they are the ones who control the areas, and influence the panchayats. It is in their interest to keep this system going, so that they don`t have to give up their influence to federal laws.........
I saw an interview of an MPA in Sind on BBC. Someone was passing a similar decision in a Jirga, in his area, regarding a woman having an alleged affair. He approved of the decision, on camera. The BBC reporter asked him, how in the world he could approve such a decision, against a woman. He talked about tribal traditions etc. etc.
This whole system needs to be dismantled. There is no place in Pakistan, where I have lived, and seen first-hand, where woman are more of a commodity than in feudal Pakistan. Not urban Pakistan, not religious Pakistan, not non-feudal rural Pakistan, nor military-Pakistan.
As long as this powerful feudal group dominates the politics of Pakistan, nothing will ever change for future Mukhtar Mai`s. They project themselves as progressives in Lahore and Karachi. However, in their own areas, the practice the extreme form of repression and backwardness. In fact, I am surprised the MNA of the area wasn`t able to suppress this case, through political influence...........
Does anyone have the name of the MNA and/or MPA of the area, where this incidence occured? It would be interesting to see who he was ,and whether he initially tried to suppress this..............And whether he authorized the panchayat, to begin with.........I would also be interested in finding out where his own daughters study, etc.......
#21 Posted by MantoLives on June 2, 2005 9:24:28 am
Re: # 17
Shoresaab,
Thank you
Dear Ana,
I think you are mixing Mr Harish Gurumoorthy from Hyderabad with Harimau Iyer... totally different people mind you... Mr Gurumoorthy by his own admission is here to shut up everyone who speaks critically of his ``wrinkly bharat mata``. He is incapable of any self criticism.
I concede your point about Jay.... Jay outlines a number of points that pricks the pakistani patriots and has outlined some critical issues about Pakistan. If he was a PAKISTANI he would be a first rate patriot... but given his obsession with Pakistan as an Indian, I am afraid it is reflective of a very different mentality.
Shoresaab,
Thank you
Dear Ana,
I think you are mixing Mr Harish Gurumoorthy from Hyderabad with Harimau Iyer... totally different people mind you... Mr Gurumoorthy by his own admission is here to shut up everyone who speaks critically of his ``wrinkly bharat mata``. He is incapable of any self criticism.
I concede your point about Jay.... Jay outlines a number of points that pricks the pakistani patriots and has outlined some critical issues about Pakistan. If he was a PAKISTANI he would be a first rate patriot... but given his obsession with Pakistan as an Indian, I am afraid it is reflective of a very different mentality.
#20 Posted by slan on June 2, 2005 8:51:57 am
Mukhtarai mai`s effort is heroic,in view of the back ground she came from.If the guilty have been punished ,and this is publicised in the the villages where jirga law is still practiced,it should serve as an exampe for others.
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