Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

re:#128 by Bina_Shah
Bina Shah,
You have not answered the question posed by some of us in this forum. What earth-shattering changes have happened in Pak`s political system folliwing the incidence in question? Please have the courtesy to answer this question. Your silence may mean that you guys are just shedding crocodile tears.
Sridhar

oye, how did i manage to change what i wrote. . . i meant to say why mukhtaran matters as much as nazish or hanifan. . . because i know it will be pointed out that the others are not receiving the ``media attention``

beejay:

you tried. it was a valiant effort on your part. but you see it will always come back to indians on chowk don`t discuss rape in their own country. . .and where did you say that getting rid of feudals in india has resulted in ``being able to talk about x, y, and z?!``

so in other words, what some people here would like you to do is be a good indian, don`t preach about what we should do in pakistan when you can`t even discuss what happens in india. (that is not what i think, mind you) let these mard log go on about what the root of the problem is, i will give a hint, which may cause some flare-ups, or not: we live in a patriarchal misogynistic society - duh! and the end of the ``occupying army``, or the end of ``feudalism`` alone ain`t gonna help all that much. although ridding them as patriarchal structures in power will contribute. it is a mindset that needs to change, and we may have to begin with our women, rather than our men. or both simultaneously.

why mukhtaran mai matters, or nazish bhatti, or hanifan bibi (and how many here know about hanifan bibi?) and jay, i hope you`re listening here, is not because she`s receiving international media attention, but because she took a stand against her accusers, against the justice system, against everyone (including those who would minimize her actions here) who would tell her not to fight. and jay, whether your blind eyes want to see it or not: THAT IS CHANGE. no, the hudood hasn`t gone away, no, rape still continues in pakistan, in india, in sudan, in the blessed united states of amerika. but mukhtaran by her actions has said, ``i will not let you quash me, or reduce me to nothing by your actions and your decisions.`` and when all women who would feel helpless or powerless in the eyes of men and society can say the same thing, then not even the powerful or powerless feudals, the bumbling ``occupying army`` or the ridiculous hudood ordinance can stop the transformation. it can happen, if we make it happen. . . we have to work to make it happen.

and beejay, i agree with you. this article was well-written, and hope the writer remembers why mukhtaran mai matters, and works towards transformation. writing about it is definitely a step in the right direction.

i will go back to my books now, carry on. . .
--ana

Romair,

I am from a Sindhi landowning family. I`ve never tried to hide this. In fact, I`ve told you this on another board.

Anyway, you`ve inspired me to write another article called ``On the Inside: Home Truths About Feudalism``. I don`t know if I`m going to post it here or try to get it published in a newspaper. But a lot of my responses to you will be containted in that article.

Bee Jay: You have a great sense of humor. Your post 109 really made me laugh. HamidM, ditto.

I wish we could go back to the issue: the fact that this woman went through a disgusting experience but she didn`t let it kill her. She fought back. She fought hard. We need to fight with her, not fight each other so that we just waste all our energy and feel like we did something when in actually fact all we did was fart, not fight. I wish Romair and Temporal and YLH and everyone would join WAR and do something for victims of rape instead of talking about revolutions and politics. I wish that there were actually women interacting on this board.

Re: # 125

tahmed ........my point, exactly !

Why Bina Shah matters

All the time educated pakistanis are blaming the others. For romair it is the feudals, for temporal it is the military and for ylh it is the mullah. The educated have convinced themselves that all they can do is to imrove the image of pakistan by writing lies about pakistan.
A good example is this article by Bina, the first two sentences of which claims that this incident of rape has brought about far reachning changes in pakistan. This is a lie, the thousands of other rapes still right now happening in pakistan did not bring about any change.
What did Bina claim that this perticular rape has brought about change, well there is world attention on this and she like the YLH and others beleives that this is the time to present a lie and world will beleive it. naturally Bina and YLH and other eduvated pakistanis are nad about me, simply because I have exposed their mind set. Bina the author was so despondent taht her response that my posts have spelling mistakes. This is the pathos of the educated pakistanis.

The educated pakistanis like romair and bina`s ahve to admit that they can also do something constructive, they are not all that power less. They can tell the truth.

This article, if Bina were to be honest, should have declared that despiote the publicity, there is no response to suggest any change to pak laws and the hoodood will remain. That would have been truthful, but that would not be white washing of pak image. Thre is no way to change pak image without changing pak society.

hamidm #124 You write to BeeJay ``we must get rid of the feudal lords before we can talk about obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........``

Of course where BeeJay comes from (India) they got rid of feudal lords, and as a result they can now talk about ``obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........``. Except that they dont - at least not on chowk.

Of course getting rid of feudal lords is a good idea - its just that people dont start obeying traffic laws, urinating in the streets and raping women as a result.

Re: # 123

beejay,

...... sorry, we can`t do that ........ we must keep on digging for the root - what you are suggesting is too simple for our complex minds ............ we must get rid of the feudal lords before we can talk about obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........

Dear interactors (yes, ALL of you):

Now that the debate over this issue seems to be dying down, it’s time for me to have a heart-to-heart talk (or at least monologue) with you over this topic.

First off, for those who MAY be humor-impaired, #109 was not a serious suggestion. (Also, the gentleman in question has a few ongoing legal issues to keep him very busy for a while and will probably be unable to devote the time needed to address the serious problems of my dear, dear brothers and sisters of the state of Pakistan.) My purpose in putting it up was to draw to your attention how a simple article describing the strength of character of this one rape victim quickly degenerated into a game of political football over all the problems plaguing the Pakistani society, the subcontinent, and the world, not to mention our personal, political, legal, and spiritual lives in this world and hereafter. You see, dear readers, in theory it is always better to solve the ROOT of a problem. But it’s possible to keep digging for the root forever, without getting to a closure, till eventually, you have used up ALL your allotted time on earth and accomplished – just a big hole, which is difficult to get out of! Also remember, if you try to solve all the problems at the same time, there is the grave danger that you may actually FIND one, and then turn away from it in dismay (as you seem to have done here with mine). It’s also evident (as Ana correctly identified in her i-log) that a bunch of the interactors are either walking typewriters or they have saved a set of canned arguments which they recycle time after time, basically hijacking the discussions.

Having said all that, here are my REAL thoughts (not in any particular order) on this very serious issue (no need to respond to it):

Rape is strictly a crime of violence (not sex).

Sanctioned rape is sanctioned crime (no matter what the book or even the Book says) and needs to be punished without delay.

A single individual DOES make a difference – sometimes by making a start (of the type this lady did), and sometimes by becoming an example role model (which she also did).

The true character of an individual shows when they undergo a crisis and it shows by how they react to it.

Revealing a crime is always the best way to deal with it (and to deter others like it).

It is possible to grab a tragedy by the horns and make something positive come out of it.

And lastly, this is an exceptionally well-written article on this very serious topic for which the author (Bina Shah) must be warmly congratulated.

I agree with every word the author has written here in this exceptionally fine article!

Thanks.
BeeJay

romair,

``I have no idea who Mantolives is. What he does. Where he is from. What his background happens to be. I have never met him, nor do I know anything of him. ``

...... ????? .... are you serious ? ........... he used to be ylh and and everyone knows him ! ...... pay attention to what is going on around you instead of rambling on and on about imran khan saving the world after musharraf is done with it !

........both romair and temporal are right - i just discovered some interesting satistics :

1. there were no rapes in pakistan during the few years that we had an elected civilian government

2. there were no rapes in pakistan during the many martial laws

3. there were no rapes in the few years that gdp growth was over 6 %

............. so the solution is obvious : civilian governments with martial law and a gdp growth rate of over 6% (even if we have to cook the books and dress up soldiers in mufti ) !!!!

miriam #117:

as i elaborated some in #116:

read #114...have described the level playing field conditions...after that whoever emerges we will have to accept them as our leaders

more?

think long term...recall this...stumble, stand, walk, run?...and put this in context of our neighbours since `47...they have had stern times, bad times, `emergency` rules, left of center govts, right of center govts etc....all the while struggling forward...

we cannot predict the future...best we can is to participate in the effors to level the playing field and then hope for the best...and accept the results with humility

lve

t

escapist #108: ``Please for once......Say that you were talking about Mantolives...I mean, please! Just once, say that you meant Mantolives, when you were talking about Feudals.``

I have no idea who Mantolives is. What he does. Where he is from. What his background happens to be. I have never met him, nor do I know anything of him. So it would be pretty difficult for me to know whether his background is urban or feudal.

So, not to break your heart, but I wasn`t talking about him. I was talking about my own friends from schoool, who fall into this category.

BeeJay #107: ``1) Romair believes that for now, it should be the army.``

I think perhaps my remarks are not clear. I think, for now, the solution should be any entity that is ensuring the highest economic growth rates. It could very well be the maulvis, or the labor leaders, or the businesmen, or a revolution leading dictator like Lee Kuan Yu, or a doctor like Muhathir, or the Army or the Navy, or the Civil Services.........The main point is that economic growth should be given priority over, even elections under this messed up system (ideally one should have both).

Temporal #various: ``only when the playing field is level will the forces of progress and regress fight it out ... and one or the other emerge victorious (minimum requirement for this level playing field: the army in the barracks, independent judiciary and rule of law)``

This is where you and I disagree. I think there is a requirement you are missing out on. And that is the most important. The financial ability to act independently. That is the core requirement that needs to be added to the above. That is the only way a level playing field will be created.

I would like to ask you a question. Do you support feudalism or oppose it? If you oppose it, then why do you think feudal politicians, themselves, are the biggest supporters of elections, under the present system, if they know it will result in a level playing field, which would mean an end to their dominance of poliitics.........

I think you are incorrectly bracketing my argument into one between the Army and the feudals. That is not my argument, at all. My argument is between elections and economic growth. If one cannot have both, which is more important? i.e. if one has elections and the resulting group, perpetually tanks Pakistan`s economy, is it worth it? Or is it better to favor economic growth, if it start occuring, without elections.

Please try to look at it under that context, and my argument will become clear. It is independent of who is creating the economic growth. In this case, coincidentally, it happens to be a person from the Army. Although much of the credit should go to the bankers who are running Pakistan`s finances, from Citibank etc........

But at no point have I made the argument that the Army should be running Pakistan. I have said anyone creating the highest economic growth should be running it, for the time being...........

Temp:
#114

Acha toU listen….not to throw a wrench in those noble plans or anything ;). I mean I’m all for the “let’s get the army back in the barracks” plan. But here’s the thing. In light of our earlier discussion vis-à-vis mostly uneducated population being marginalized from the political process and education being necessary for democratic institutions.

Do you think the citizens will have the proper infrastructure to slug it out? Would the situation perhaps leave an opening for another demagogue in sheep’s clothing to take advantage of the masses? I mean isn’t the devil you know better than the devil you don’t?

At least until the infrastructure is established for democratic institutions through investment in social programs like education. Hmmm….? Or is the risk worth it?

#105 by Romair:

temporal #104: Are you suggesting the maulvis are not an issue, at all? Or the feudals? no. read 104 with 114

Suppose an Iranian type revolution occured in Pakistan, overthrowing all the forces - Army, feudals, us upperclass elite on Chowk (which we are regardless of how much we try to deny it). You would be alright with that? yes

``rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out``
I don`t agree with this. If you ask a maulvi, he will say rebuilding of Pakistan will being, when all non-religious forces are removed. If you ask someone who is secular, they will say it will begin when all maulvis are kicked out. Everyone thinks their group is perfect and others are the problem....... read #114...have described the level playing field conditions...after that whoever emerges we will have to accept them as our leaders

For a country like Pakistan, the first and foremost priority should be growth of economy and creation of jobs, by anyone - be they a leftist labor leader or a pro-USA army general. this has been discussed to death on chowk...my feeling and the consensus am aiming to build isthis ... the first foremost condition for anything positive to happen the army-power umbilical cord has to be permanently cut...then the nation and its resources and forces should concentrate on rebuilding core institutions...first law and order...and second education and socio-economic empowerment (thanks mirium)...