Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

ana #81:

i respect your input

and miriam ... i chould have added this ps: in # 82 also...fickle memory;)...khair...
``...in its hunger to grab a bigger share of power they would not hesitate to make a pact with the saint, the devil, the pariah or the powerful...and we have seen this in the past 57/ 58 years...they bring out mqm when it suits them, have pacts with mullahs when it is in their interest...``

now specifically to the point ana addressed...

india is not a glorified example of minorities right...not by far and not yet!...however...when we compare india to pakistan...it is far ahead of pakistan...(yes i will get a flack for saying this from the usual suspects...but this is the truth....despite gujrat, kashmir, christians being burned alive..forget that preacher`s name...sloan?...and all the provocation by their rss mullahs)...

why?

imho since the divide they (indians) have developed (and are developing) strong basic institutions...because of these khaki meddling in civilian affairs the divide and suspicion across all line...class, religion, caste...whatever...is expolited to the fullest...christians, hindus, ahmedis, barelvis, deobandis, sunnis shias...everybody falls vicitm to this divide and rule mentality ...link this with no credible institutions... the egalitaran aspects of a society are not allowed to build up...the khakhis both inculccate and exploit intolerance to the hilt...(yes, back to k(h)akisatocracy)...which is why in my humble opinion....:)

lve

t

#74 by miriamk:
Temp:
#64

I’m going to have to think about this. Does the chicken come before the egg or vice versa? I mean is the army the root of all problems or did the problems necessitate army rule? It’s a question I haven’t been able to answer yet.

I suppose in some very essential way Feudalism and the Army presence are related. They are perhaps two different sides of the same dysfunction. I don’t know if that makes sense (?). I mean, is each an enabler for the other?

miriam you have in a way answered the query yourself:)

forget the chicken-egg for a moment and think of ground reality there...army tentacles are in every aspect of life...from the legit to the grey...from the fauji foundation...(somebody mentioned it is the second largest employer in the country after the GoP) to the water tankers that supply water in DHA karachi...(now this is a good one...none of the brave investigative journalists would touch this...i have asked around and this is what i have been told...it is not that the millionaires and billionaries who live in DHA schemes have out houses or they prefer the bushes to relieve;)...or have no indoor plumbing...it is juts that the city does not have water to connect to their taps...

good...

so then how do they survive? bingo...water is available for a price...you pay the water tanker driver for it...ok...where do they get their water from?...(cutting the story short)...army rangers have access to water...they sell it to truckies...who supply the water starved population of DHA schemes...the journalist do not touch the source because i suspect the profit-cuts go high and deep...and they are loathe to fight and expose the gods...

this was just one example...hence miriam forget about chicken-egg...think differently...think tough...or think small...if we hope to make a difference in our lifetimes

lve

t

Re: # 64

the problem i have with every and any ill being blamed on the occupying army is precisely that every and any ill cannot be blamed solely on the occupying army.

--bigotry and the violence that ensues from that cannot be blamed solely on the occupying army.
--misogyny and the violence that ensues from that cannot be blamed solely on the occupying army.

it is all well and good for y`all to put the blame squarely in one place, i.e, either the feudals, or the army, but there are other agents here as well. has it been the army alone who has held us back in terms of our socioeconomical, sociopolitical, anything to do with our social development? or the feudals for that matter? i wonder. khair y`all can sit here and debate the ``power`` of the feudals and whatnot until kingdom come. . . the fact remains that justice has always been in the hands of the few, and has come to the few, long before the army was in control. and until we are blind to that, and do not fight to emancipate ourselves and defend the countless innumerable women (and men) like mukhtaran mai, like nazish, like christian women who are raped. . .and stand for laws that protect ALL of us rather than accept justifications not to, we are going to remain a country without honor. with or without the occupying army.

.............first it was the cia, then the zionists, then the horrible hindoos, and now it is the feudal lords ............

...................who are these feudals and why are they raping our women in public ? ......... who was the feudal lord who raped mukhtar mai and now forces romair to make mrs romair walk at least five steps behind him when they go shopping in toronto ?

............ i really don`t have the time to engage in yet another romairesque excercise in absurdity even though i do know all the answers ........... but let me summarize it by saying that the feudal is just a bogey man - there might be a few feudal lords in southern punjab and sindh who lord over their tenants like their forefathers did centuries ago, but there are not that many and they are not as omnipotent as some like to portray them ........... however, the feudal mindset is well and alive in all sections of pakistani society and even poor unwashed abdul, who has a hard time keeping body and soul together, behaves like a feudal tyrant when it comes to dealing with his property - his women and children ...............

........... the first thing you notice when you land in pakistan is the abscence of women from the streets - where are they ? ............i am sure romair and urstruly will say that they are at home plucking their eyebrows and gossiping over tea and crumpets ...........

Maybe Romair is confusing Malik Meraj Khalid with Mian Mairaj Muhammad Khan ... the labor leader and ex-PPP leader who joined tehreek-e-Insaaf a few years ago...

Even he publicly insulted Imran Khan and abused Tehreek-e-Insaaf before leaving it for good.

PS:

Aitzaz Ahsan, a well read educated barrister and a committed secularist, has no ideological affinity with Tehreek-e-Insaaf which ironically is a mismatch of ideas and is largely made up of confused Imran Khan admirers, Islamists and Islamic populists. Aitzaz is not a great admirer of Imran Khan from what I understand. Aitzaz could only have ideological affinity to a secular centre left party.

Malik Meraj Khalid sahab was also the same ... an old worker of the Pakistan Movement, a Punjabi to his bones, a committed Maoist and a patriot above all. He was a serious politician and would pay scant attention to parties like Tehreek-e-Insaaf which are to put it mildly... a Joke.

Romair basically has an axe to grind with several different people and he is trying desperately to fit the ``feudal`` label on them. The problem is that he is trying to hit everyone from Bina Shah, Sameerjb to myself (because he can`t take on any of these people in a logical and decent argument)

Like HP pointed out... Romair is completely out of touch with Pakistani society`s dynamics... not everyone who lives in Karachi/Lahore, goes to Aitchison, LAS or Choueifat, and studies abroad comes from a landowning family. This is the sad part... he keeps generalising shamelessly... Even within the so called ``feudals`` of North Punjab, with the introduction of corporate farming and land leasing the old system is on its way out.

That said Romair`s over all picture does match some prominent families from South Punjab... but some of these land owners are the kind that Musharraf (Romair`s champion) has handpicked for his rule... i.e. Jahangir Khan Tareen ... whose children I know very well... So ... it comes back to the initial point... and HP said it so well.

``The price of justice is eternal publicity`` said Aristotle

``Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you`re a man (or woman), you take it `` said Malcom X


Mukhtar Mai matters because without her we would matter less.

Satire

Chowkie on duty...

Temp:
#64

I’m going to have to think about this. Does the chicken come before the egg or vice versa? I mean is the army the root of all problems or did the problems necessitate army rule? It’s a question I haven’t been able to answer yet.

I suppose in some very essential way Feudalism and the Army presence are related. They are perhaps two different sides of the same dysfunction. I don’t know if that makes sense (?). I mean, is each an enabler for the other?

Fuedalism is the biggest problem in Pakistan because army has kept it so.

say IBM employs 200,000 people...if some US admin lets IBM executives hide income, not pay taxes, discriminate and exploit its employees and use them for political purposes..who is to blame foremost? IBM or Admins?

Romair:

(Various posts)

I think you and I may have found something to agree on. Feudalism is perhaps the biggest impediment to economic development. Several years ago when I started my doctorate studies in economics I was very green, very idealistic, and very non-mainstream (i.e. thought that all developing countries didn’t necessarily have to follow the Western model of development).

In other words traditional systems of patriarchy, tribes, and feudal relationships didn’t have to be dismantled all at once, that somehow economic progress could be facilitated through them. Why? To prevent a country undergoing “shock therapy” which can be even more detrimental and dehumanizing than some of these oppressive systems.

Now, at the tail end of my degree and much more disillusioned, I am convinced that these oppressive systems have to be uprooted all at once. If they aren’t, real economic development can never take place. Of course, I still don’t think that the World Bank, IMF, and WTO always have the right prescriptions but fortunately there are some conscientious economists who are working very hard to develop alternative ideas and models.

Socio-economic development is a necessary precursor to democracy. Although these days a la Dubya, the conventional wisdom has been reversed. But the man is a semi-literate demagogue, so what does he know.

Re: # 69 Romair

thanks for the clarification

#68 thanks..so i understood that the feudals are kind of jolly-good country squires, but the only way they ``supress the masses`` is by no giving land to build schools and and keeping jirgas alive. is land so expensive that the govt cannot build a school? considering the jirga to be a power-projection of the feudal, how does it then ``opress the masses``? if a skill-less pashtoon can make a living in prosporous urban centers, why not the man under the feudal .. like the bhayya who harvests for the panjabi farmer in india and go home after every season with a new color TV and a gold-chain for his new-born?

in short, i understand how feudals may keep themselves in power in the national assembly, that they have some nice old money and go to harvard. but not how they opress their renters/people.

aslam644 #63: ``Feudalism as a social and economic system as practiced in pakistan is the problem, not large land holdings, there are larger land holdings in the US, Australia even Britain, where farming is regarded as an industry with management, employees and casual workers etc.``

This is correct. Please read my example about owning a ranch in Manitoba.......Owning large amounts of agricultural land is ok. Owning a large amount of villages, and controlling the livelihood of the villagers, is not...........The later is feudalism........

``It would be very difficult to replicate the Mirpur and Jehlum model, because of their unique position with regard to army recruitment and migration to England. Mirpur is far from egalitarian, there are some fabulously rich families there, as an Indian journalist recently observed it has massive sprawling bungalows, making those in Guraon look like servant quarters.``

This is correct, as well. Though I think there are areas outside the Army recruitement belt, which are no longer feudal. Some land reforms did occur.........

The issue is not wealth. Nothing wrong with being wealthy. The issue is how the wealth is generated. A large extremely wealthy businessman, who pays taxes, and runs factories, is an asset to the country. However, a person who generates his/her wealth by owning land and the people on it, and then joins politics to ensure the system does not change, is a liability. Moreso if he uses his govt. influence to ensure agriculture is not taxed, or taxed very minimally............

There is a person name Hamza Alavi who has written on this subject in Pakistan.....Do read his work..........

Jang #61: ``What i have failed to understand is how exactly they boss-over or supress their fiefdomes``

Good question.....I will try to answer it..........

``From what i understand is that pakistani urban areas, a lot of panjab, and offcourse kashmir are flourishing and prosperous. How can the feudals keep his folks from leaving him to earn from urban gold-rush?``

Kashmir is not prosperous. It is relatively poor. It is very safe, non-violent and I would say progressive. And it now has a lot of people settled in UK. But its locals, within Kashmir are not rich, as such..........Educated people from Kashmir migrate to Punjab (like my families)........

Punjab is rural and parts of it are prosperous. Though other parts are poor. The rural non-feudal parts, like Potohar, are fine. No honor killings, no gang-rapes. No powerful politicians. I suppose it would be like the village areas in India, which are probably, rural and poor, but not feudal. These areas can progress.

The peasants in the feudal areas are in terrible shape. Their condiition must be unique in South Asia. Where are they going to go? They have no skills. No vision. Some of them actually consider the local feudals their pirs. If they protest, the landowners can kick them off the land, since it belongs to him........Some of them are actually bought and born into slavery........Their skills are not in demand anywhere.........What skills do they have?

When I lived in Southern Punjab, I had an orderly, who was in his 40s, but had only visited Lahore twice in his life !! He had gotten a job as an orderly, because their was a military station there. Otherwise, he would be tillling some feudal`s land.

This is why I say, the main way out is for the economy to grow. For non-skilled jobs to be created. So that, some member of the peasant family can take that job. And become independent. This is why, I have always supported economic progress in Pakistan, over elections (ideally I would want both, though). This is also why I think PPP-type parties will ensure the economy does not grow (it never does under their rule), because that will urbanize the population, and break the back of feudalism...........

``What exactly do these feudals do (besides getting elected, whenever the few elections do happen) to opress the ``masses``?``

They don`t allow schools to be built, on their lands. They ensure that land reforms do not occur. They ensure that ancient jirga type systems remain in place. They ensure the literacy rates in their areas is low (it is the lowest in South Asia, in feudal and tribal Pakistan). The wild amongst them can indulge in rape, etc.........

In their personal lives, they don`t do much, other than what they want. What job has Benazir had other than being the Primer Minister? She has never worked anywhere else. What job has Zardari had, other than being in jail or being in politics. Most of them don`t even do agriculture, which should be their profession.

Outside their own lands, they are normal people.

The average profile of the present-day feudal is: he/she is born in Lahore or Karachi etc. Lives a Western lifestyle in Pakistan. Goes to Aitchison college, or St. Joseph etc. for girls. Graduates, and goes to USA or UK to study. In some cases to elite Ivy League universities. Comes back to Pakistan. By that time he/she is in his/her twenties.........Then the siblings who want to go into politics, immediately start participating in the provincial and council elections (in many cases against their own cousins, who is in the opposition party), in their feudal lands, while they, themselves live in the big cities. Since they own the lands, they win (or the cousin wins). That`s it. They continue to live in the wealthy parts of Lahore or Karachi, and keep doing this, till they die........

The ones who don`t want to go into politics, start a business, become a model or a socialite or perhaps join civil services for a while. Or become writers, journalists. Join NGOs, women`s movements, write poetry, etc. Visit Chowk. Speak out against maulvis and honor-killings, etc. Basically anything they want to do. They don`t need to have a job, and are extremely well-connected.......

If you meet them - and I have some school friends in this category - they are generally nice people, in person. And fun-loving and Westernized and are, personally, quite liberal and progressive. And are foreign educated.......But their whole stature in society is based on the poor villagers who till their lands, whom they will never let go of. The good ones might build a school or hospital for them, but they will never give them their land..........

As an example, the current Minister of Science and Technology of Pakistan is a feudal in his early 30s. He is the son of a previous President of Pakistan, Farooq Leghari. His qualifications are equivalent to those of an intern. I doubt he could have gotten a green card in the USA, where he studied. I would not have hired him for my company...........But he is an MNA and a Federal Minister.....And that too, of Science and Technology....This is basically the first real job he has had...........Not a bad way to make a living............

The minister of S&T before him was a Ph.D. scientist, appointed by Musharraf (unConsitutioanlly appointed, but one of the top scientists in Pakistan). However, the one before him, under Nawaz Sharif, was a lady with a high-school diploma, who is a feudal and stud-farmer in Punjab. Her name is Abida Hussain (from PML). I am not sure, whether she can even spell S&T. She, interestingly, fights elections, against her nephew (who is in the PPP), named Faisal Saleh. He is the religious gaddi nashin of the pir, from that area. Abida`s daughter recently graduated from Harvard, and returned to fight the council elections against Faisal`s son or nephew in the same area...............