Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

re: Anil`s post # 32
Anil,
Romair is right about the feudal laws. I think they have nothing to do with Islam. If one does a little research, one might find that these archaic laws may even predate Islam. Which is why even Mullahs are unable to make a dent in them.
Sridhar

re:#36 by Romair
Thanks for your long, thought-provoking post.
It is indeed a complicated situation.
Feudal system seems well-entrenched in Pakistan.
I still think a people`s democracy (the emphais is on the word people`s) would ultimately spell a death-knell for the feudal system in Pak. Let me explain how.

In 1947, when India became independent, both Zamindari system and the Princely States lost their power and prestige. Former were unceremoniously eliminated from the political scene while it took sometime for the latter to fade away (they held on to Privy Purses for sometime before Indira Gandhi stopped that previlege too).
Why do u think this happened? Because under the new dispensation of democracy, the leaders did not have to depend on Zamindars or Maharajas/Nawabs for their election or survival. Many Maharajas (Scindias of Gwaliar being one such) sought power under this dispensation in a new role: as politcal leaders. That is, they had to go back to the people to seek political office.
Would such a thing be possible in Pakistan if a true democracy were to find foothold. Pak today does not have a people`s democracy. When u have a system where political leaders get elected through people`s mandate and not depend on feudal money or power structure to get elected, the feudal system will fade away. This will happen in its fullness of time. Now-a days, the elections that happen in Pak could only be called a sham.
How come so many feudals get elected to Senate in Pak? I am sure they do so by using their money and muscle power. I am sure they force the laborers working under them to vote for them. I am not well versed with the election process in Pak but it does not seem like a fair process to me. Anyway, i still believe that democracy is the solution.
How Pak is going to get to the point of having a ``true people`s democracy``? I have no clue.
Sridhar

Bina Shah,

Jazak-Allah for keeping the issue alive. May Allah make your voice louder and more powerful, and give us all the courage to fight for justice than just talking about it!

Dear Harish Hyd,

Sorry for misreading your statement. I thought you were trying to say something else.

I am afraid what you are saying is nonsense. Please review the last 400 interacts between us and see for yourself ... At times even your own supporters had to intervene and ask you to stop insulting my family members simply because you didn`t have an argument. I will supply the post if you wish. Its alright though. Your tactics are common for anyone who is unable to provide a counter argument.

Sometimes ... one`s ``good as I got`` is not good enough...

Re: # 45

If the last word is what you want to have, be my guest, but just wanted to tell you that I gave as good as I got, so please don`t whine about how gentlemanly you behaved yet were insulted. Thanks.

My dear harish hyd,

This is just rich coming from you of all people... Rest assure and be happy that I have no desire to engage you in discussion here or engage you in a ``slanging`` match. Its good that you`ve improved your manners and have chosen not to use the insults that are so second nature to you on the other boards. I acknowledge and appreciate that.

Re: # 41

Mian, I don’t have the desire to start a slanging match here, for this will only serve to degenerate this board into a free-for-all, when such an important issue is being discussed here. But for people like you, it doesn’t matter if you are in the gutter, as long as you can pull the other man into it too.

So thanks, but I prefer to remain out of it.

Actually, YLH, Romair is talking about me.

#39 by Romair

“But most of all, because he literally owns the whole land. Many many villages, all belong to him.”

Could you please name couple of Zmindar or feudal who own “whole land and Many many” villages in Punjab or anywhere else in Pakistan or it was just a figure of speech?

#32 by anil

“Nazish Bhatti`s eyes show a scared and fearful girl. Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil. Can anyone now with evil intentions come closer to Mukthar Mai to gang rape and abuse her?”

My purpose is not to comment on what happened to Mai but a look at Mukhtarian’s picture would tell you that she just had a visit to the best beauty salon in Pakistan.
Her facial hair is plucked. Eyebrows trimmed and all made up, perhaps some foundation cream and a faint shade of lipstick too. She is doing a great job by highlighting a serious problem in our society and then helping herself too in the process and I like that spirit. (I am not being sarcastic here.)
See her here again with open eyes this time.

Re: # 40

My dear harish hyd,

What angry posts are you talking about? I merely pointed out a fact. I had no desire to get back at you... the links are there... the questions that you refused to answer (no doubt because that would cause you the real trauma of myth-shattering) are also there ... but ofcourse you would rather run and restart the discussion here.

Romair/Rsidhar

I tend to agree with Rsidhar on this one... the solution to bad democracy is more democracy and even more democracy... And by democracy I don`t simply mean ``electoral`` democracy.... I mean real empowerment of the people... through grass roots democracy... through a working judiciary ... through local government... and advocacy groups.

Feudalism, sick and wrong, is part of an evolution... parts of Pakistan i.e. FATA and Balochistan agencies are two stages behind feudalism even i.e. Tribalism. And feudalism isn`t the same all over Pakistan... South Punjab is worse than North Punjab and Interior Sindh is even worse... What is more is that these feudals have a thousand excuses to defend their actions... What happened to Mukhtara Mai couldn`t have happened say in Potohar region ... yes perhaps... but other things happen there... and honor killings etc are as bad.

Romair mian is always trying to bring down a bogey... he is now mentioning the scions of these ``rich`` and ``feudal`` families writing on this website... it is ironically and sadly a thinly veiled (and misguided) reference to me (i couldn`t think of anyone else on this site being accused of being a feudal) ... because like many others he too has never able to argue logically and has therefore taken to personal attacks... ironic because my urban middleclass background is the farthest thing from a feudal... if anything our backgrounds are very similar.

#13 by ana

[let me ask you something. do you and jay really care whether Pakistani society changes for the better or not? And I`m not asking this out of sarcasm or anything, but seriously. . .
yeah, Bina`s response to jay is rather silly (and not very responsible for someone who`s written an article of someone as important as Mukhtaran Mai), but jay`s responses unfortunately don`t merit much else at times.]

To be honest, ana, I don`t really care when I have so much to worry in my own backyard. I just felt that jay raised some very pertinent points, but like many Pakis, Bina, instead of pondering over what jay said, simply tried to humiliate him.

As to Manto`s angry posts, I feel he still hasn`t been able to overcome the trauma that resulted from some uncomfortable questions I asked him on some other boards. This could be his way of getting back at me. Khair, as you put it, there are more important things at hand here.

Anil #32: ``Even the most powerful fuedal and his gang of potential rapists, and members of Jirga would not be able to stand up to the determination of 1,000 villagers, who would no longer be silent witnesses to the crime that thru tradition and religion have been brainwashed to believe it the law.``

I don`t think the belief is based on religion. People may believe and use Islam (or any other religion) to keep their daughters from going to co-education schools. But I don`t think they will use it to consider gang-rape a correct form of punishment. I am not sure, but I believe, in Mukhtar Mai`s case, the local maulvi actually helped her. And incidently, nearly all the feudals in Pakistan are secular, politically. Nearly all of them belong to PPP and PML. None of them belongs to the relgious parties (this is not to say that they support gang-rapes becuase they are secular).

It has, at certain levels, to do with age-old tradition, where one thinks the jagirdar is the king. However, I think even an animal would know and demand its rights, if it could, if it were to be gang-raped. I am sure, everyone related to Mukhtar Mai would have wanted to protect her, regardless of tradition. If they could........

The cause is the lack of power of the individuals. There is a difference between rape as a crime. And between a group, implicitly ordering a gang-rape, under the open sky, as a form of judicial punishment. This means the group making the decision had no fear of anyone. The reason they don`t have any fear is because they are under the protection of a powerful jagirdar.

And the reason the jagirdar has no fear is because 1) Him, or his family member, or colleages is the elected MNA and MPA 2) He belongs to a powerful political party 3) Due to this power, he has been able to station his closest friends and relatives as the police officers and civil servants in his area.

But most of all, because he literally owns the whole land. Many many villages, all belong to him. He can, legally, kick anyone off his land, and make them penniless. He has never allowed schools to be built on his land, because he doesn`t want his haris and villagers to get an education and get liberated from his chains, by acquiring other skills. Since the land is his property, the govt. cannot do anything. In some cases, these guys have their own jails. In nearly all cases, they actually are the judiciary in their areas. They pass the decisions. Its their personal fiefdom.

In some cases, these guys are also the historical pirs and gaddi nasheens etc. (this is where religious beliefs do come in). So people consider them religious figures also........Pir Pogaro and Faisal Saleh Hayat being examples........

The key is to take away their lands and distribute it to the peasant tillers of the land. I belive Nehru did that with the Nawabs. That will break their back. Once they lose their lands, they will still remain wealthy men, but will not have control over the lives of the villagers. The villages will become rural, with no single landowner, i.e. they will no longer remain feudal.

I have some association with rural Potohar. Ever hear of a gang-rape being ordered there? No. Ever hear of a gang-rape being ordered in Kashmir? No. Both these areas are very rural and poor. But they are not owned by any Oxford educated feudal.......My distant family members participate in elections in Kashmir. And some win. But they have to go door to door to get the votes. They don`t own the land, and cannot force the farmers or peasants etc. to vote for them. Same is the case in non-feudal parts of Punjab like the surrouding areas of Lahore, Jehlum, Chakwal etc. Ayaz Amir, a journalist, can win election in backwards rural Chakwal. There is no way he could win in feudal areas like rural Sind or feudal parts of Punjab.........against people like Khar and Amin Fahim......

I don`t know much about Indian political history, but I think the main reason India has democracy and Pakistan does not is that Nehru was able to take away lands from large landowners. The Indus areas, being far more feudal, had a much stronger jagirdarana hold. Jinnah could have taken them on. But he died. After that, all of them entered politics, specifically to ensure no one can take their lands and change the system..........This is why feudals are always on the forefront of, ``elections`` under the staus quo system in Pakistan......The other intelligent move they have been able to make is that they have been able to portray themselves as the, ``secular`` alternative to the rest of the world. The world, dead scared of mullahs, seems satisfied in supporting feudals in Pakistan, even if they perside over a system of gang-rapes in their own constituencies........

As Iqbal said,

``Jiss khait say dehqan ko muyassar na ho rozi
Uss khait kay har khosha-e-gandum ko jala do``

Re: # 33

Agreed...

tehsah #34: ``If the women like the feudals like Khar what the poor would do to quench their urge for sex?``

I am not sure what you are trying to say......

Please read, My Feudal Lord, by Tahmina Khar, to understand what happens. Women apparently do get attracted to Khar. She certainly did. They will get attracted to many feduals. Because many of them, while in the cities, are quite urbane, westernized, educated etc. A huge lot of them is educated abroad. I wouldn`t be surprised if some of their kids are writing on this site. Some of them write in the most liberal magazines of Pakistan, pushing progressive liberalism.

However, they show their true colors when they are in their own lands.........

Mukhtar Mai is one person. Her story was picked up by the press. Had it not been, no one would have known who she was. She would be another statistic. The whole system has to change. Especially the electoral system that allows feudals, like Khar etc. to reach a position where they are responsible for making the laws to protect women.....Its like making the jackal the gaurdian of the melon fields............

....Khar is not the only one. The current head of PPP, and perhaps future Prime Minister of Pakistan, Amin Fahim, has four sisters married to the Quran.....this is done to maintain ownership of feudal lands, so they don`t get distributed......If a person believes in such things in his personal life, why will he change it for the rest of the country.....They are all scoundrels.........And, at least in my opinion, a scoundrel remains a scoundrel, even if he wins an election........

You can walk across all corners of Pakistan. Every group - maulvis, military, businessman, ethnic centers, professionals, farmers, fishermen, progressives, liberals, conservatives, traditionalists, edeucated, uneducated, etc - they all will have a lot of problems. Corruption, nepotism, bribery, backwardness, violence, lack of respect for the Constitution etc.

But there is no locality that is run by any of the above-mentioned groups, where you will find somone persiding over a panchayat that orders the gang-rape of a woman, as a form of punishment. Qazi Hussain, and his maulvis for all their ill-intentioned religious rhetoric will never oder something like this. Musharraf and his generals, for all their violations of the Constitution, will not either. Neither will MQM with all their ethnic violence. Nor any other group.

There is only group that will do such a thing. And that is the feudals. Doesn`t matter if they are religious or secular, educated or uneducated. Liberal or conservative. This is the system they want to keep in place...........And they do this, by overwhelmingly dominating the politics of Pakistan............

rsidhar #28: ``The only solution i see is the empowerment of women in villages through a democratic process.``

Your comment about education is correct. However the method for reaching that state is incorrect.

I am not sure how many feudal areas you have lived in Pakistan. Or observed. I have lived in two for about two and half to three years. One has to actually live there to understand what is going on. It is impossible to understand it from a distance.....

There is a big difference between rural and feudal. I think many Indians have a difficult time comprehending that. India is perhaps rural, though not feudal. Parts of Pakistan are rural but not feudal. For example, my vilallage in Kashmir is rural, but not feudal. Pakistan`s Kashmir is on the whole not feudal. Neither is most of Punjab now (other than the south).

In my village, there is now a women`s college being constructed. There are women who are in civil services and what not. Their literacy rate is high. They are confident. etc. Even though the area is not wealthy. That is where your solution of empowering women, through democracy will work. Why? Specifically because there is no one powerful individual in the area, who can forcefully win elections.............Name one powerful political in Pakistan, who is from Kashmir (not ethnically Kashmiri, but living there)......It is a relatively egalatarian rural area..........As are areas like Jehlum, Chakwal, etc. in Punjab.......

However, your solutions based on elections will not work in the feudal areas. The feudals of Pakistan are the biggest supporters of status-quo electoral system. They are always on the forefront in, ``fighting`` for it. They wouldn`t be on the forefront, if they thought it would make them lose their power. They are on the forefront, because they know that the status-quo system will ensure they remain in power, by getting elected again and again, thorugh a screwed up system, under which they can own large amounts of land and pay bare minimum taxes on it, and control the lives of the individuals living on their land...........

There is no profession, in Pakistan, where every major player is in politics, except feudalism. All the doctors aren`t in politics. Neither are the businessman or teachers.......Why are the feudals all in politics? Think about it.......

Pakistan`s elected assembly has traditionally been 60-66% feudal. Always. Other than now, when the maulvis have won some seats. Why in the world will these feudals change the rules that keep them in power? Why will Mustafa Khar change the rules? Or Amin Fahim? Or Leghari? These people send their own daughters to Oxford and Harvard, and ensure that women on, ``their`` lands get no education and work in their fields from the age of 10 till they are grandmothers........I have seen it with my own eyes........

Go visit some of these areas. Live there. Do you think any woman can vote against her feudal master, if he can hold a panchayat and get her gang-raped? Every women isn`t Mukhtar Mai........

The best solution is to forcefully break the back of the feudals. Unfortuantely, no one, including the Army is willing to do that, when in power. I think the maulvis will do it, but they have other issues........Maulvis, by the way, are the only group the feudals are truly afraid of. This is also why, while I don`t want maulvis running Pakistan, I am not as harsh on them as many on this site. Because, in my opinion, Fazl ur Rahman, with all his faults is still better than Mustafa Khar.........To the best of my knowledge there have been no panchayat orgranized gang rapes in areas run by maulvis. They only happen in areas run by feudals..........

The only other solution is economic progress, at a national level. This will give the people living in these areas, the opportunities to get jobs in the cities. If one brother or son can get a job in the city, in a growing economy, then the family becomes somewhat independent of the feudal (who in many cases own a major chunk of their whole constituency). Then they can slowly start to demand their rights, and maybe even vote for someone who is not a feudal, in their areas..........

PPP and PML are the two largest political parties in Pakistan. In every election, one of the two wins. And nearly all the honor killings and panchyat based rapes occur in areas ruled by their elected feudal members, under their approval..........They only propose bills against honor killings etc. when they are in opposition, to make the other party look bad. Never, when they are in power. PPP has run Sind for ages. It gets elected hands down there. Why in the world has it not finished this system, in areas which its MNAs literally own and run?

Do explain to me, how elections, in the current status-quo system are going to solve all of this?

P.S. The current govt. has forcefully, outside of democracy, given 33% of the seats in local councils to women. And a very large number in the National Assembly. Pakistan now has more percentage of women in its federal assemblies than the USA (or India). It has also given religious minorities more enfranchment than evern the majorities. All of this is technically illegal and unConstitutional, since the govt. is unConstitutional. However, I support these measures. Because there is absolutely no way any elected govt., with the PPP or PML running it, would have empowered women like this. Or empowered minorities in the assemblies. Absolutely no chance..........