Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

``Usually we in Pakistan expect the rich to champion the cause of the poor, we expect men to champion the cause of women, and adults to champion the cause of children.``

Nice observation! We Pakistanis expect too much. We expect corrupt bureaucrats to improve our system although we have known for decades that corruption exists. We expect politicians to be honest. We expect (and lecture) other people to do things that we would hesitate doing ourselves. But we do not desire our childern to become policemen, politicians or film actors and actresses (because these are `inappropriate` professions) although we keep whining about the lack of professionalism in these professions.

Firstly, I believe this is a fantastic discussion from the point of educating us all. It is time that we understodd the power of MEDIA, it is not only the Pakistinin media but the international media that has been very active in reporting this matter.
I love when folks pass comments forgetting the famous quote ` People living in Glass houses should not throw stones at others`.
The reality of us all is that of a Glass house. Having access to internet and satellite does not mean that everyone in Pakistan has open mindedness attitudes on the contrary most of us are HYPOCRITES. I`ll qualify the satement I`ve just made. i.e. in the West if most men saw a half dressed woman in the street would not think twice to look at her, cos this is the norm. Whereas, in Pakistan it would be the opposite.
As they say `Charity begins at home` lets start with ourselves and move forward.
Bina Shah`s article is fantastic and I hope she will keep up the excellent work.

I know one thing If Prophet had seen this day he would have stood by Mai.

Excuse MMEE! Mr. Malik Saleem,
....Mukhtar’s case was “blown out of proportion…

Oh! thank you for stating that, if that helps... people to realize the monstrous nature of the crime those landlords have committed and would have remained unnoticed if the victim did not speak up.

It is no shame to tell about the crime that have been committed against you and then live with your head up.

Shame on you all who think by not discussing this incident they are protecting the fragile fabric of their purists society.

Eight years ago, I was always depressed reading all this shit in Paksitani newspapers backhome and I thought, I saved my brain from a trauma by landing in America. I admit it was a wrong conclusion as, after all, this palce is not as welcoming to us anymore as it once used to be because we are ``Muslims``. I quit writing seven years ago but I have taken it up again because it is us who are given a gift to write to try to educate others.

Whatever the Muslims or Pakistanis are going through is a lessaon for us that it is time to start talking about evils within our scoiety and start purging them.

#112 by Pardesi on June 5, 2005 6:14am PT

You have hit the nail on the head, Mr. Pardesi. The Inshaallah Maashalla Ilam Deeni culture
Which is prevalent in Pakistan as Islam these days has nothing to do with the real spirit of Islam but is the product of Madrissa culture. These madrissas were sponsored by America to produce, what Washington Post calls ‘dogs’, to bite the Russians. These ‘dogs’ have gone mad now and have started biting not only the Americans but their lap dogs also. As far as Deene Mullah is concerned the rape stands institutionalized in the form of ‘sex-slave’ though the mullah no longer seems to be interested in it for reasons unmentionable and even got it prohibited in the Constitution of Pakistan which is called Islamic nevertheless.

Bina Shah

What a discussion! Not an iota of truth. What change the Mai`s rape has brough out in society? It has converted the rape, a shameful and condemnable operation, into an enjoyable and profitable business. Even Altaf Hussain of MQM complains why a rape case in Sindh has not been given due attention by the government as that of the Punjaban Mai. So the people who once hid the rape case are now vying with each other to get their rape publicised. One wonders why the technocratic PM gave special attention to MM when the rape cases are galor in the country. The fact is rapes are being committed in the trains even. A senior police officer is on record in a TV discussion on the subject that almost all dacoities are accompanied by rape also but the victims don`t complain about that. They say even the film star, Shabnam, was actually gang raped but she complained about it only as a dacoity. And in fact even Mukhtaran Mai did not take up the crusade herself. It was all a suo moto start up pushed up by the NGOs. I wonder to this day we have not heard any comments from the accused party who are stated to belong to the dominant Baloch tribe. So it is all one sided affair so far as media is concerned and, excuse me, only womanish comments on the Chowk.

bina:

you`re right:)

focus should be mukhtaran

i just felt harping on feudals was diverting from the core cancer

lve

t

re: ana # 140

Good post. Now, please go get ready for your finals. :)

miriam,

that is what i was getting at, but thank you for being more what`s the word, okay, i`ll just have to say, clearer for now. . .

thank you for the good wishes. and no, there`s no rest for the wicked!

jay,

i can`t argue with you anymore. i have to return to studying for my final which is in less than 24 hours. let me just say this. . . even if no one said that making the revelation of the gender/sex of a female foetus a criminal offense was a change. . it was.

the purpose of bina writing this article. . . and talking about change is that if you missed it, there are those who believe that mukhtar mai has blown her case way out of proportion, that her efforts are primarily to damage the oh so great country of pakistan. those accusations, jay, are lies, okay?

now we know that india has made progress in many areas, where people are not leaping up to say, oh this is a big change. but understand that where mukhtar comes from, what she is doing is huge. and in a country where numerous rapes have gone unpunished, where promises for change are made, and withdrawn, what mukhtar is doing is a change, for me one (i will not speak for the rest) that is inspiring. it is not about image. it is about justice. and again, if you are under the impression that educated pakistanis are not in favor of justice. . . then we should be just as indignant that you are making such a generalization. and we are. so please, as i`ve said before, find ways to have meaningful discussion if it is at all possible for you. . .rather than calling everyone from temporal to yasser, to bina a liar. like i said, it doesn`t make you all that truthful either.

Bina Shah #128: ``I am from a Sindhi landowning family. I`ve never tried to hide this. In fact, I`ve told you this on another board.``

You must have mentioned it. I must have forgot. However, again based on readers` perrogative of knowing the motivations and background of the author, I would like to ask you some questions. . ........The reason I am asking this is that one runs across families who simultaneoulsy benefit from jagirdana and feudal systems, and write against them, also, i.e. they run with the hares and hunt with the hounds........I have never been able to accept that..My aim is not anything personal for or against you:

- Are you from a landowing agricultural family, i..e your family owns large lands, where it farms, but not villages, etc.

- Or are you from a feudal family, which owns the villages on the lands also, and just pays the tillers as labourers

- Does your family (or you specifically) participate in politics and do they (and you) oppose land reforms

Rsidhar #131: ``You have not answered the question posed by some of us in this forum. What earth-shattering changes have happened in Pak`s political system folliwing the incidence in question?``

Let me answer this question, if I may.

No major changes have occured in the poltical system, due to this. The only change that has occured is at a personal level, for the afflicted party. And perhaps for someone else who may use her as an inspirational example. That`s it........

Things like this happen quite often. This includes honor killings, also. Pakistan has not been able to get a single bill passed, in any provincial or federal assembly, against honor killings. The party in opposition presents one, knowing fully well that the party in power will not approve it. When the tables turn, and the opposition is in power, they do the same thing.

The reason is simple, and comes back to the point that I have been making all along. The people in politics have a vested interest in not changing any of these customs and laws. They happen under their jurisdiction. They subtly approve of them, which can be gauged by their voting patterns in the assemblies. They, themselves, have kids who throw acid on women. They, themselves, marry their daughters and sisters of to the Quran, to maintain land holdings......

When over 60% of the elected houses get their on the basis of such jagirdarani systems, why would they change them?

ana,

let me give you an example from india. female foeticide is wide spread in india. Ten years ago at least in kerala they made it a criminal offence for doctors to tell the sex of foetus. some doctors were prosecuted. No one claimed like Bina that it has made a change in society. Then came the situation when non-doctors bought the ultra sound equipment and started telling foetus sex. now the govt has legislated that ultrsound equipment should not be sold to non-doctors. again no one claimed any social change. we are waiting now for backyard assemblers of ultra sound equipment and when that happens there would be govt action.
People like Bina are obstacles to pak progress, so are ylh, romair and and other educated of pakistan who are obcessed with image. They beleive that it is all a matter of hiring publicist while denying the rot in pakistan, by declaring spring after seeing a dead swallow.

Society changes only when the educated dares to tell the truth, and I do not see any indication of it in the pak educated.

Ana:

It is extremely important to create organizations that help women who survive rape. It will probably have to happen on a grassroots level for now just because of the systemic problems that exist in Pakistan.

But on the other hand there is the issue of making sure that this doesn’t happen again EVER to any woman. Mukhtar Mai was no ordinary rape victim. She was targeted due to tribal customs/mores (whatever you want to call them). So the bigger picture here is to ensure that these tribal customs change. Right? And how does that happen? Through education, investment in social programs, etc.. The tribes will always be there but there
customs can perhaps be reformed through “enlightenment” (is that possible?).

In other words to change the attitude of patriarchal ignorant men (and I think many women are also complicit in this) we as women or a society have to educate them or reeducate them. It has to be grassroots in the beginning but it is also important that this change be on the national agenda at some point (imho).

So ana, what I’m saying is this, politics and even economics become important at some point. I think our Pakistani women aren’t political enough. They need to play a more important role on the inside so they can get money allotted for women’s programs and make sure significant changes take place.

p.s. good luck in your finals :).

p.p.s. get some rest

jay:

again, tell me where. . . where does it say that there have been changes in the political system? how is this a lie. there have been changes in meerwala itself. do you not think that for a woman who was not educated, perhaps not encouraged to be either, that to open up a school for girls in that village so they can be educated, is not a huge change? perhaps it is not for you, but for someone who lives in a village or knows something about girls who are not educated there. . . and i know. . . this is change.

again, how has this not been a catalyst? first of all, being a catalyst does not signify immediate change. . . and yes, perhaps ``in general`` is too general a term to use, but as bina said, what mukhtaran has done can hopefully encourage other young women in her situation who to quote bina do not have to be in chains or live as silent prisoners of ``tribal`` codes. that is the sense that mukhtar is a catalyst for future change. the change that has already begun in meerwala.

i know you`re insistent in believing that bina is a liar, but i don`t want to join you in believing that. as for journalists, i don`t put much faith in them anyways. :) my hope and support rests with mukhtaran.

and i won`t assume that you understand hindi/urdu, but let me say this again, ``har ek ko apne garebaan maiN jhaaNk kar dekhna chahiye. . `` please be as indignant as you want, but calling every pakistani writer or journalist who tackles an issue a liar doesn`t make you any more a possessor or harbinger of the truth. and the truth known to many jay prakashji is that you really don`t give a damn about what happens in pakistan or pakistani society anyway. so forgive me if i don`t join you in calling bina a liar, because as badly as you think she`s expressed herself, she does give a damn.

all the best
--ana

``She fought back. She fought hard. We need to fight with her, not fight each other so that we just waste all our energy and feel like we did something when in actually fact all we did was fart, not fight. ``

Bina 128,

No Bina, you did something worse, you used the travails of that woman to promote your educated class value and concern for a good image of pakistan by claiming that changes have taken place in pakistan.

You have degraded and demeaned the valient struggle of an uneducated, like any typical pak educated, the ylh who claims that there are roads named after abdus salam, like temporal who claims that honour killing is only in tribal areas and is not sanctioned by law.

``This story has received attention all around the world, and has been the catalyst for some very important changes in not only the area of Pakistan that she comes from, but in Pakistani society in general. ``

ana, 132

Above is the line that made me indignant. What is this change that BIna is talking about. What catalyst, why this is a catalyst while millions of others did not. This is pure lie and attempt to improve pak image through lies.
There is rape in every society, but no one is claiming any change in their ``society in general`` especially when nothing of that type has taken place.

Join me in calling for truth by the journalists, especially the so called important ones as Bina in pakistan.

where in this article has it been said that earth-shattering changes ``have`` happened in pakistan`s political system? why is bina being pressed to answer a claim she never made?

it has been highlighted what mukhtar has done. . . she has used the money and donations she received in her fight to open up a school. . . she is educating people in meerwala, and in the world. . . and she is going to continue to speak out. . . and bina has already indicated what her hope is (and that hope belongs to many of us) as to what changes can be brought about if she continues, and does not back down from her goals.

this was an article about mukhtar mai. not about the static stagnant pakistani government, it is we, as a community who must fight with mukhtar, and countless women to bring about change because it is we, in this social revolution who will do it. . . not the powers-that-be, but we will bring about the earth-shattering changes. . . and that is why mukhtar and every woman with a voice and those yet to find one matters.

so if you`ve read this article, know that the main thrust of this article is not about a political system which has (not) brought about amazing change, this is about a struggle that needs to be encouraged, and embraced by all those who can. some of us know that it isn`t the political system which is going to bring about change as far as women`s rights in villages, and cities, and the country is concerned.

re:#128 by Bina_Shah
Bina Shah,
You have not answered the question posed by some of us in this forum. What earth-shattering changes have happened in Pak`s political system folliwing the incidence in question? Please have the courtesy to answer this question. Your silence may mean that you guys are just shedding crocodile tears.
Sridhar

oye, how did i manage to change what i wrote. . . i meant to say why mukhtaran matters as much as nazish or hanifan. . . because i know it will be pointed out that the others are not receiving the ``media attention``

beejay:

you tried. it was a valiant effort on your part. but you see it will always come back to indians on chowk don`t discuss rape in their own country. . .and where did you say that getting rid of feudals in india has resulted in ``being able to talk about x, y, and z?!``

so in other words, what some people here would like you to do is be a good indian, don`t preach about what we should do in pakistan when you can`t even discuss what happens in india. (that is not what i think, mind you) let these mard log go on about what the root of the problem is, i will give a hint, which may cause some flare-ups, or not: we live in a patriarchal misogynistic society - duh! and the end of the ``occupying army``, or the end of ``feudalism`` alone ain`t gonna help all that much. although ridding them as patriarchal structures in power will contribute. it is a mindset that needs to change, and we may have to begin with our women, rather than our men. or both simultaneously.

why mukhtaran mai matters, or nazish bhatti, or hanifan bibi (and how many here know about hanifan bibi?) and jay, i hope you`re listening here, is not because she`s receiving international media attention, but because she took a stand against her accusers, against the justice system, against everyone (including those who would minimize her actions here) who would tell her not to fight. and jay, whether your blind eyes want to see it or not: THAT IS CHANGE. no, the hudood hasn`t gone away, no, rape still continues in pakistan, in india, in sudan, in the blessed united states of amerika. but mukhtaran by her actions has said, ``i will not let you quash me, or reduce me to nothing by your actions and your decisions.`` and when all women who would feel helpless or powerless in the eyes of men and society can say the same thing, then not even the powerful or powerless feudals, the bumbling ``occupying army`` or the ridiculous hudood ordinance can stop the transformation. it can happen, if we make it happen. . . we have to work to make it happen.

and beejay, i agree with you. this article was well-written, and hope the writer remembers why mukhtaran mai matters, and works towards transformation. writing about it is definitely a step in the right direction.

i will go back to my books now, carry on. . .
--ana

Romair,

I am from a Sindhi landowning family. I`ve never tried to hide this. In fact, I`ve told you this on another board.

Anyway, you`ve inspired me to write another article called ``On the Inside: Home Truths About Feudalism``. I don`t know if I`m going to post it here or try to get it published in a newspaper. But a lot of my responses to you will be containted in that article.

Bee Jay: You have a great sense of humor. Your post 109 really made me laugh. HamidM, ditto.

I wish we could go back to the issue: the fact that this woman went through a disgusting experience but she didn`t let it kill her. She fought back. She fought hard. We need to fight with her, not fight each other so that we just waste all our energy and feel like we did something when in actually fact all we did was fart, not fight. I wish Romair and Temporal and YLH and everyone would join WAR and do something for victims of rape instead of talking about revolutions and politics. I wish that there were actually women interacting on this board.

Why Bina Shah matters

All the time educated pakistanis are blaming the others. For romair it is the feudals, for temporal it is the military and for ylh it is the mullah. The educated have convinced themselves that all they can do is to imrove the image of pakistan by writing lies about pakistan.
A good example is this article by Bina, the first two sentences of which claims that this incident of rape has brought about far reachning changes in pakistan. This is a lie, the thousands of other rapes still right now happening in pakistan did not bring about any change.
What did Bina claim that this perticular rape has brought about change, well there is world attention on this and she like the YLH and others beleives that this is the time to present a lie and world will beleive it. naturally Bina and YLH and other eduvated pakistanis are nad about me, simply because I have exposed their mind set. Bina the author was so despondent taht her response that my posts have spelling mistakes. This is the pathos of the educated pakistanis.

The educated pakistanis like romair and bina`s ahve to admit that they can also do something constructive, they are not all that power less. They can tell the truth.

This article, if Bina were to be honest, should have declared that despiote the publicity, there is no response to suggest any change to pak laws and the hoodood will remain. That would have been truthful, but that would not be white washing of pak image. Thre is no way to change pak image without changing pak society.

hamidm #124 You write to BeeJay ``we must get rid of the feudal lords before we can talk about obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........``

Of course where BeeJay comes from (India) they got rid of feudal lords, and as a result they can now talk about ``obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........``. Except that they dont - at least not on chowk.

Of course getting rid of feudal lords is a good idea - its just that people dont start obeying traffic laws, urinating in the streets and raping women as a result.

Re: # 125

tahmed ........my point, exactly !

Dear interactors (yes, ALL of you):

Now that the debate over this issue seems to be dying down, it’s time for me to have a heart-to-heart talk (or at least monologue) with you over this topic.

First off, for those who MAY be humor-impaired, #109 was not a serious suggestion. (Also, the gentleman in question has a few ongoing legal issues to keep him very busy for a while and will probably be unable to devote the time needed to address the serious problems of my dear, dear brothers and sisters of the state of Pakistan.) My purpose in putting it up was to draw to your attention how a simple article describing the strength of character of this one rape victim quickly degenerated into a game of political football over all the problems plaguing the Pakistani society, the subcontinent, and the world, not to mention our personal, political, legal, and spiritual lives in this world and hereafter. You see, dear readers, in theory it is always better to solve the ROOT of a problem. But it’s possible to keep digging for the root forever, without getting to a closure, till eventually, you have used up ALL your allotted time on earth and accomplished – just a big hole, which is difficult to get out of! Also remember, if you try to solve all the problems at the same time, there is the grave danger that you may actually FIND one, and then turn away from it in dismay (as you seem to have done here with mine). It’s also evident (as Ana correctly identified in her i-log) that a bunch of the interactors are either walking typewriters or they have saved a set of canned arguments which they recycle time after time, basically hijacking the discussions.

Having said all that, here are my REAL thoughts (not in any particular order) on this very serious issue (no need to respond to it):

Rape is strictly a crime of violence (not sex).

Sanctioned rape is sanctioned crime (no matter what the book or even the Book says) and needs to be punished without delay.

A single individual DOES make a difference – sometimes by making a start (of the type this lady did), and sometimes by becoming an example role model (which she also did).

The true character of an individual shows when they undergo a crisis and it shows by how they react to it.

Revealing a crime is always the best way to deal with it (and to deter others like it).

It is possible to grab a tragedy by the horns and make something positive come out of it.

And lastly, this is an exceptionally well-written article on this very serious topic for which the author (Bina Shah) must be warmly congratulated.

I agree with every word the author has written here in this exceptionally fine article!

Thanks.
BeeJay

Re: # 123

beejay,

...... sorry, we can`t do that ........ we must keep on digging for the root - what you are suggesting is too simple for our complex minds ............ we must get rid of the feudal lords before we can talk about obeying traffic laws, stop urinating in the streets and raping women .........

romair,

``I have no idea who Mantolives is. What he does. Where he is from. What his background happens to be. I have never met him, nor do I know anything of him. ``

...... ????? .... are you serious ? ........... he used to be ylh and and everyone knows him ! ...... pay attention to what is going on around you instead of rambling on and on about imran khan saving the world after musharraf is done with it !

........both romair and temporal are right - i just discovered some interesting satistics :

1. there were no rapes in pakistan during the few years that we had an elected civilian government

2. there were no rapes in pakistan during the many martial laws

3. there were no rapes in the few years that gdp growth was over 6 %

............. so the solution is obvious : civilian governments with martial law and a gdp growth rate of over 6% (even if we have to cook the books and dress up soldiers in mufti ) !!!!

miriam #117:

as i elaborated some in #116:

read #114...have described the level playing field conditions...after that whoever emerges we will have to accept them as our leaders

more?

think long term...recall this...stumble, stand, walk, run?...and put this in context of our neighbours since `47...they have had stern times, bad times, `emergency` rules, left of center govts, right of center govts etc....all the while struggling forward...

we cannot predict the future...best we can is to participate in the effors to level the playing field and then hope for the best...and accept the results with humility

lve

t

escapist #108: ``Please for once......Say that you were talking about Mantolives...I mean, please! Just once, say that you meant Mantolives, when you were talking about Feudals.``

I have no idea who Mantolives is. What he does. Where he is from. What his background happens to be. I have never met him, nor do I know anything of him. So it would be pretty difficult for me to know whether his background is urban or feudal.

So, not to break your heart, but I wasn`t talking about him. I was talking about my own friends from schoool, who fall into this category.

BeeJay #107: ``1) Romair believes that for now, it should be the army.``

I think perhaps my remarks are not clear. I think, for now, the solution should be any entity that is ensuring the highest economic growth rates. It could very well be the maulvis, or the labor leaders, or the businesmen, or a revolution leading dictator like Lee Kuan Yu, or a doctor like Muhathir, or the Army or the Navy, or the Civil Services.........The main point is that economic growth should be given priority over, even elections under this messed up system (ideally one should have both).

Temporal #various: ``only when the playing field is level will the forces of progress and regress fight it out ... and one or the other emerge victorious (minimum requirement for this level playing field: the army in the barracks, independent judiciary and rule of law)``

This is where you and I disagree. I think there is a requirement you are missing out on. And that is the most important. The financial ability to act independently. That is the core requirement that needs to be added to the above. That is the only way a level playing field will be created.

I would like to ask you a question. Do you support feudalism or oppose it? If you oppose it, then why do you think feudal politicians, themselves, are the biggest supporters of elections, under the present system, if they know it will result in a level playing field, which would mean an end to their dominance of poliitics.........

I think you are incorrectly bracketing my argument into one between the Army and the feudals. That is not my argument, at all. My argument is between elections and economic growth. If one cannot have both, which is more important? i.e. if one has elections and the resulting group, perpetually tanks Pakistan`s economy, is it worth it? Or is it better to favor economic growth, if it start occuring, without elections.

Please try to look at it under that context, and my argument will become clear. It is independent of who is creating the economic growth. In this case, coincidentally, it happens to be a person from the Army. Although much of the credit should go to the bankers who are running Pakistan`s finances, from Citibank etc........

But at no point have I made the argument that the Army should be running Pakistan. I have said anyone creating the highest economic growth should be running it, for the time being...........

Temp:
#114

Acha toU listen….not to throw a wrench in those noble plans or anything ;). I mean I’m all for the “let’s get the army back in the barracks” plan. But here’s the thing. In light of our earlier discussion vis-à-vis mostly uneducated population being marginalized from the political process and education being necessary for democratic institutions.

Do you think the citizens will have the proper infrastructure to slug it out? Would the situation perhaps leave an opening for another demagogue in sheep’s clothing to take advantage of the masses? I mean isn’t the devil you know better than the devil you don’t?

At least until the infrastructure is established for democratic institutions through investment in social programs like education. Hmmm….? Or is the risk worth it?

#105 by Romair:

temporal #104: Are you suggesting the maulvis are not an issue, at all? Or the feudals? no. read 104 with 114

Suppose an Iranian type revolution occured in Pakistan, overthrowing all the forces - Army, feudals, us upperclass elite on Chowk (which we are regardless of how much we try to deny it). You would be alright with that? yes

``rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out``
I don`t agree with this. If you ask a maulvi, he will say rebuilding of Pakistan will being, when all non-religious forces are removed. If you ask someone who is secular, they will say it will begin when all maulvis are kicked out. Everyone thinks their group is perfect and others are the problem....... read #114...have described the level playing field conditions...after that whoever emerges we will have to accept them as our leaders

For a country like Pakistan, the first and foremost priority should be growth of economy and creation of jobs, by anyone - be they a leftist labor leader or a pro-USA army general. this has been discussed to death on chowk...my feeling and the consensus am aiming to build isthis ... the first foremost condition for anything positive to happen the army-power umbilical cord has to be permanently cut...then the nation and its resources and forces should concentrate on rebuilding core institutions...first law and order...and second education and socio-economic empowerment (thanks mirium)...

....... exorcising jinns and taming women .........

..........in the sixties, duting ayub khan`s military rule, we had an orderly from chakwal who claimed that his wife was posessed by jinns and had given his brother permission to give her a sound beating if she ever got out of line ........... then she moved into the quarters with with her husband in peshawar, who continued to beat her with a stick whenever she fell on the ground foaming at the mouth and making strange noises until someone told him to make her smell an old shoe and take her to a pir in multan ......... the man was not a feudal, but he was a fauji - temporal 1, romair 0

....... in the seventies, a pathan father and his sons killed their sister and buried her in the middle of the night because, earlier in the day, they had seen her peeking out of the window at the hujra of men ............ the father was a landowner, the brothers included army and police officers - one of whom later rose to the rank of lt general .......... temporal 0.5, romair 0.5


........ in the eighties, a shopkeeper in the dheri hasanabad bazar which is about a mile from the ghq, sliced of his wife`s nose because he thought she had been unfaithful ....... the man was acquitted by the courts ...... he was neither a feudal nor an armyman ...... temporal 0, romair 0

....... in the eighties, a dhobi raped his niece in lahore cantt ...... when the police were called, they proceeded to beat up the fifteen year girl to get the ``truth`` ...... when the girl`s father and mother intervened, they too got a sound thrashing for not being able to ``control`` their bad-challan daughter ........... the man was a dhobi who worked for the army .......... temporal 1, romair 0 ...........

.......... so, based on this small sample i think the army is responsible for at least half the rapes in pakistan - the rest are equally divided among the feudals and dhobis ............

hamidm and everyone else here but romair (a separate reply for you will come shortly)

(sigh)

this is a general follow through for everyone:

removal of occupying army means a level playing field for all the parties in pakistan...

only then the process to stand, stumble, walk run will earnestly begin

this process will be long and drawn out and there are bound to mis-steps...and some innocent blood even may be spilt...but if the playing field is level...then ultimately sense would prevail and some working and acceptable order will emerge

only when the playing field is level will the forces of progress and regress fight it out ... and one or the other emerge victorious (minimum requirement for this level playing field: the army in the barracks, independent judiciary and rule of law)

please note: i am not aligning myself with any one side...all i am painting is a scenario where the feudals, mullahs, big business, small business, regional parties etc. can slug out the political football for the benefit of the citizens...the citizens will make the ultimate choice...you and i will live with it...i know i will...

Beej
#109

Those were the 10 most anticlimactic seconds of my life since Dubya was reelected. Arre jee, hum nay aap ka kiya bigaRa hai? Why must you insist on inflicting this “cruel and unusual punishment” on innocent bystanders? ;)

Khair….some key qualities you delineate there. But the million dollar question is, if someone like that does exist why in God’s name would this “agent for change” want to be part of the unholy mess that is Pakistani politics? Why? Why? Hmmm…? :)

# 111

`` .......... there is something fundamentally wrong with the pakistani society ....... ``


Umbilical cord that ties you with the 7th century social value system of Bedouins.

Cut it like Turkish did it and everything will be fine.

..... what does all this have to do with the price of tea in china ?


........... i still don`t understand why women are relegated to third class status and abused in peshawar, islamabad, the tribal territories, lahore, gujranwala and karachi where there are no feudals for miles around .............. why does unwashed and unemployed abdul, who sits on the wall all day long soaking the sun and watching the trafiic , visually undress and rape any woman passing by ?........... why is it that the first thing you notice when you land in pakistan is the eerie absence of women from the streets ?............. why do women end up eating chicken necks and fish heads ? ............... what does the army or the feudal have to do with the neanderthal mindset of the pakistani male ?

........... i read through some of the posts on this board and i am sorry to say that most of them are sheer rubbish, bumkum, doo doo, drivel and regurgitated nonsense .......... according to our resident mr knowitall, romair, if we maintain a growth rate of 7.237 % rapes will go down by 28.75 % and according to temporal if the people of pakistan are allowed to eat any other brand of cereal other than the crap from the almighty fauji foundation, women will be able to walk down the mall in halter tops without getting molested by bearded demons ............... there might be some merit to the argument that the goons in khaki are leeches and parasites, but it still does not explain the way women are treated all over pakistan ............ and the feudals of southern punjab and sindh might not be the nicest guys in the world but i doubt if they go around raping women as a pastime .................. there is something fundamentally wrong with the pakistani society .........

beejay,

arre, be serious! that was good though. :)

The ultimate solution:

The ultimate solution, the ultimate stabilizing power for Pakistan (at least in the short run) must meet ALL of the following criteria:

(1) Must be human.
(2) Must be alive.
(3) Must be widely popular in Pakistan.
(4) Must have a track record for mobilizing large populations in streets (so the army will never think of taking over again)
(5) Must be liked by the army, the politicians, and the religious forces
(6) Must have enough assets of own (so there won’t ever be a need to rip off the Pakistani treasury)
(7) Must have not a single accusation of corruption against him/her in a single Pakistani court of law
(8) Must have a good, harmonious rapport with minorities and a proven track record of protecting minority lives and rights
(9) Must have a desire to rule and the necessary political experience to stay in power, and
(10) Must be available, and if not, the current employers must be absolutely unhesitant to let him go.

Is there such a person? Is it even possible?

Don’t you worry, my very dear Pakistani brothers and sisters, there IS such a person.

Dear friends, never ever stop from thinking “outside the box”!

And to find out who this agent for change is - this ultimate answer to all of our combined prayers, please click here.!

Thanks.

Romair,

Please for once.
Say that you were talking about Mantolives.

I mean, please! Just once, say that you meant Mantolives, when you were talking about Feudals.

Thanks.

All Interactors:

Here is how I see the discussions developing so far on this board:

All of you agree that:

(1) The Pakistani society is all messed up,
(2) It needs a strong supporting structure to stabilize it while it “heals”, and
(3) At this moment, the three potential supporting structures are (a) the army, (b) the politicians, and (c) the religious forces

There is serious disagreement among y’all on which one it should be.

(1) Romair believes that for now, it should be the army.
(2) Temporal believes that forever, it should be anybody but the army.
(3) (Miriamk agrees with both Romair and Temporal.)

Please continue talking, while I find the ultimate solution – a truly unique one which NOBODY on this board has come up with yet (yes, there is such a solution, just bear with me, please!)

Thanks.

“I don`t agree with this. Even if you type it in bold capitals. And not just in bold small letters.....”

Four expressions and a song come to mind…

Raj hut, Ballak hut, Tirya hut, and the biggest of them all “hut dharam!”

And the song…

Na manoon, Na manoon, Na manoon ray,
Temporal teri batiyan Na manoon ray!

temporal #104: Are you suggesting the maulvis are not an issue, at all? Or the feudals? Suppose an Iranian type revolution occured in Pakistan, overthrowing all the forces - Army, feudals, us upperclass elite on Chowk (which we are regardless of how much we try to deny it). You would be alright with that?

It is actually not that difficult to get rid of Army rule. All people have to do is come out into the streets, in large numbers.........Why do you think the average middle class urbanite in Pakistan is not doing that right now? I think it is because they are fed up with the alternatives of Zardari and Qazi Hussain............And they are happy seeing the economy rise.....

Army, in politics and business, is not the solution. It is, in the long run, part of the problem. But it is only a portion of the problem. There are other portions, also, which you seem unwilling to acknowledge............No Army in the world can throw out any leadership that has middle class popularity and middle class leadership.........

``rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out``

I don`t agree with this. If you ask a maulvi, he will say rebuilding of Pakistan will being, when all non-religious forces are removed. If you ask someone who is secular, they will say it will begin when all maulvis are kicked out. Everyone thinks their group is perfect and others are the problem.......

Rebuilding of Pakistan will begin, when all regressive forces are kicked out. It will not begin by replacing one with the other. And that will only happen, when everyone has some economic assets. And that will happen when the economy grows.........

For a country like Pakistan, the first and foremost priority should be growth of economy and creation of jobs, by anyone - be they a leftist labor leader or a pro-USA army general.

I sense there are a quite a few individuals on this site, who are scared of the status-quo of Pakistan being shaken by a growing economy, and want things as they are and as they were............

Romair:#103:

I think there are three factors that act as a regressive force in Pakistani politics. Not just one. And they act regressively in different areas. They are feudals, maulvis and Army. These are, interestingly, the three most powerful political forces in Pakistan, also.

alright, lets take them one by one in the light of the following queries

(a) feudals, (b) maulvis and (c) the occupying army

1: who holds the ultimate power in today’s Pakistan?
2: whose budget appropriations cannot be collectively or line by line questioned by the highest elected body in the country?
3: who can appoint and dismiss government leaders at will
4: who has the doog-duggi (small drum) and who dances to it?
5: where does the buck finally stops?

:)

my answer is obvious…hint: it is not (a) and (b)

rgds

t

ps: i would welcome other chowkies considered opinion on this subject

pps: rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out...let the child stand, stumble, walk, run through trial and error

temporal #97: ``the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...``

I don`t agree with this. Even if you type it in bold capitals. And not just in bold small letters.....

I think there are three factors that act as a regressive force in Pakistani politics. Not just one. And they act regressively in different areas. They are feudals, maulvis and Army. These are, interestingly, the three most powerful political forces in Pakistan, also.

However, the catalyst in starting a cycle towards creating and empowering a large urban middle class will be strong economic growth. All of us on Chowk are not affected by this, because we are already rich. But if you look at surveys in Pakistan, you will see that economic growth and jobs are the top priority. Moreso than issues that come up regularly on Chowk, like democracy, elections, secularism, shariah, Kashmir etc.......

I think all our Chowk views represent a tiny insignificant, relatively elitist, minority in Pakistan. In the big scheme of things, we are statistically a completely skewed representation of Pakistan............

Temp
#99

I hear you T. It is a tangled web they weave, etc. etc. :). Sigh...

p.s. check your email

Bina_Shah #57: ``You are completely incorrect about me, Romair, but we`ll leave my background for another day...``

I did not ask you for your background. You are the one who stated I was addressing you. When infact I never mentioned your name. Nor was I addressing you. But, since you are the author, and have yourself brought up the topic, hence I think it is the reader`s perrogative to have information about where the author is coming from.........

So, where exactly are you coming from? Are you from a feudal family, yourself? This is what I assume you implied, when you stated that I was talking about u. It`s a very fair question. Specifically, in relation to this article........

``I`ve given some of your statements to some of my family members to read, and I must say they have had a good laugh out of them. For example, ``Letting them own the land``? That`s a good one.``

What`s so funny about this? Becoming owners of one`s own land is the easiest way to empower someone. I am surprised people would laugh at this. This is the basis of land reforms, i.e. breaking down large landholdings into smaller ones, so that one person cannot influence a whole area.

Either the land should be owned by a larger group of people, individually. Or they govt. should own it. Are you against land reforms, and people owning their own land?

P.S. it is interesting to see people assume certain comments are about them, when, in fact, I have no idea who those people are. Chor kee darhi mein tinka :-)

tehsah #96: ``My point is simply that firstly; the sex in any form is not a crime as such. Qurane hakim says, “Women are your tilth (kheti) which may be used in any manner you like``..........In fact a lot of men and women would like to be raped, more so, if it is administered judicially in the manner done to Mukhtaran..........The real justice aught to be ‘rape for rape’ as demanded by the principle of ‘Qasaas’ and not publicity and money for the rape victim.``

So basically what you are stating is that people like to be raped, on occassion, and that rape for rape is justice.........Not to get personal, but seriously speaking, would you like to get raped, if the opportunity presented itself? And where exactly does it state that rape for rape is a just punishment? Not to mention the fact that it can be administrated by a panchayat? And how in the world would a women rape a man, specifically in Pakistan, to begin with? So your solution would imply that if a man rapes a woman, then, as a punishment that man`s female relative should get raped??

Following is your description in your profile:

``I am a retired public servant passing my free time by reading and writing, both in Urdu and English. I belong to the generation which sang songs of Mother India with Allama Iqbal but also had a passion for Pakistan to the extent of `Janoon`. We saw Qaid-e-Azam and heard his speaches but were also inspired by Gandhi and Nehru for their freedom movement.``

Could I ask you which branch of the civil services you belonged to......And what you like to read?

miriam:

one more ps:

to meet a mid level official a visitor is screened at least six times…(my count – last visit to isloo)…to meet a general or higher you can imagine the security checks and screenings…

…disgraced national hero dr. abdul qadeer khan (poor fellow was made a scapegoat)…could not swat a fly without authorities getting wind of his actions…yet when the beltway bandits or the foggy bottom supplied info that Pakistan is doing business in nuclear proliferation under the noses of sanctions and international guidelines a chastised khan was paraded before the nation…made to apologise in public…and pardoned…all within seven days…

….the occupying army thinks we are fools…sure dr. khan sold the information and equipment with full knowledge of the army big wigs… it is defying logic and common sense that he would have carried on this business right under the GHQ nose…impossible!…now the query…why was he pardoned in a jiffy?...

…surely the thought did not cross their machiavellian minds that dr. khan would spill the beans and names the general involved in the side- venture?…of course, they just did it because he was a national hero and not even dubya could force the faujis to humiliate him for any longer period…it was done in the national interest…

also pps: sorry for posting 97 twice

Romair #95

Once Pakistan advances from a feudal to a rural society, I will also join the group of ``elections at all cost.`` A group I used to naively belong to ten years ago. At that point, without feudalism, elections after elections will make a difference......

this is a fallacy and i disagree (#82, 83, 87)

the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...

once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...it won`t be an easy task...our neighbours have been doing precisely that since `47...and they are still far from doing that mile in under four...but they are far ahead of us...(this is used as an example)...so far ahead that we cannot see them over the horizon!

imho nothing can work to benefit the citizenry unless and until the army is firmly out of the equation...only then the journey to rebuild pakistan can earnestly begin

t

Romair #95

Once Pakistan advances from a feudal to a rural society, I will also join the group of ``elections at all cost.`` A group I used to naively belong to ten years ago. At that point, without feudalism, elections after elections will make a difference......

this is a fallacy and i disagree (#82, 83, 87)

the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...

once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...it won`t be an easy task...our neighbours have been doing precisely that since `47...and they are still far from doing that mile in under four...but they are far ahead of us...(this is used as an example)...so far ahead that we cannot see them over the horizon!

imho nothing can work to benefit the citizenry unless and until the army is firmly out of the equation...only then the journey to rebuild pakistan can earnestly begin

t

#37 by Romair
Excuse me Mr. Romair you appear to be suffering from diarrhea of English. My point is simply that firstly; the sex in any form is not a crime as such. Qurane hakim says, “Women are your tilth (kheti) which may be used in any manner you like”. Secondly, it is not a gender issue. Both men and women can be raped. Incidentally the first attempt at rape reported in history was that of a man, named Yousaf, by a woman named Zulekha of Egypt. And what justice was done in that case! In fact a lot of men and women would like to be raped, more so, if it is administered judicially in the manner done to Mukhtaran. It is only the NGOs who are exploiting the rape of MM by blowing it out of proportion for their nefarious ends by projecting the Mai as a crusader against the ‘cruelty’ perpetrated by the male gender. It is not a question of justice either. The real justice aught to be ‘rape for rape’ as demanded by the principle of ‘Qasaas’ and not publicity and money for the rape victim.

The factual position is that the case is still under appeal in the Supreme Court. The High Court which heard the case last held five out of the six accused as not guilty while only one was sentenced to life imprisonment because of his own statement that he had been married to MM and did perform sexual intercourse with her in that capacity. The Mai denied this (only the marriage part of it), apparently as her admission of being married with the accused (a noble and honorable woman would have perhaps jumped at this proposition even if it was considered an afterthought by the accused) and consequently it was taken as a self-confession of rape by the accused and a ‘good’ reason for awarding him life imprisonment. My God what a rape and what a justice!

BeeJay #91: ``You think the ARMY will do that?``

No the Army will not do that. Which is quite tragic, since the Army, at its core, is the most middle-class insitution in Pakistan. It has no feudal representation now. And hardly anyone from even the upper-middle and upper class Chowk crowd joins the Army, any longer......

However, the Army has never gone after the feudals. As mentioned earliers, Ayub Khan`s family joined them, and now sits in the center of the most powerful political nexus of Pakistan. Zia-ul-Haq`s son is a key member of PML. Musharraf is the only one, whose next generation is not getting involved in the system. Perhaps because he is a Muhajir and thus an outsider...........

I think what happens is that the middle-class Captain, once he gets power, as a General, joins the elite class. He marries into the feudals and the big businesmen. And, by default becomes part of the crowd..........

Actually, I wrote a detailed reply on this site, once, which highlighted how all the people who have influence in Pakistan, be it through the PPP, PML, ANP, beaurecracy (and upto a few years ago, the Army Generals), businessmen, NGOs, journalism etc. are all related to each other. They are each others cousins, in-laws, neices, nephews etc.........Supporting one against the other is actually fruitless..........Only the maulvis and middle-class parties (like MQM) is not related to this nexus............

Economic growth, regardless of who carries it out, is the only answer........Black Cat, White Cat, doesn`t make a difference.........Just has to catch the mice.............

jang #68: ``#68 thanks..so i understood that the feudals are kind of jolly-good country squires, but the only way they ``supress the masses`` is by no giving land to build schools and and keeping jirgas alive. is land so expensive that the govt cannot build a school?``

Good question, with any easy answer......

The govt. cannot build the schools, because the feduals ARE the govt. And there relatives are the opposition. PPP and PML. This is the sole purpose of every landowner to get into politics. What other reason is there? They want to ensure that their areas are not, ``liberated`` by the govt. To do that they have to become the govt. Much like the Army becomes the govt. to ensure that its influence in Pakistan`s industrial complex is not reduced.......And maulvis try to become the govt. so that they can keep Shariah in place, thereby increasing their powers............

Also, if I own land, I can do whatever I want there. How will the govt. build anything on my land, if I don`t allow it.

A good example is Gwadar. Gwadar is going to be a world-class harbor with a world-class city around it. The living standard of all the surrounding areas in Baluchistan will increase significantly, due to the trade and roads and sky high value of land prices. Why wouldn`t anyone want such development in their areas? I am sure the local labourers would love the new jobs............

But the major tribal leaders of Baluchistan are opposing it. Why? My guess is because it will result in progress in their surrounding areas, which will liberate the people, and reduce the influence of the tribal, since people will have the financial opportuniites to tell the landonwer to get lost. These tribal leaders, by the way, themselves live in Karachi etc.. They went to Aitchison. And their kids study in Australia and New Zealand............While the literacy rate for women in Baluchistan - the area they rule or influence - is at th lowest in the world, at 3.3% or so..............

If these same tribals were running the govt. today, they wouldn`t have to carry out explosions etc. to stop Gwadar. They would just vote against it in the Assembly, and legally stop it. And the people of Gwadar would remain poor, as always..........

``if a skill-less pashtoon can make a living in prosporous urban centers, why not the man under the feudal .. like the bhayya who harvests for the panjabi farmer in india and go home after every season with a new color TV and a gold-chain for his new-born?``

The pushtoon who makes a living in the urban center is not skill-less. He is a carpenter or a cobbler or a truck driver, or a cigarette vendor, etc. In addition, he probably has an extended family that is spread out into various jobs. Perhaps one brother is in Dubai, the other owns some land that he farms and gets market prices on the crops, etc. the third polishes shoes as an orderly in the local military station or civil servants colony near Mardan.........

Perhaps the same for the Indian Punjabi farmer. They are not an indentured labor family, over a period of generations. They are just poor. But not slaves, who have no assets of their own, at all. There is a difference........

For a person to get out of a system, where he owns nothing and is subordinate in every way to the landowner, a couple of things have to happen:

First there has to be a job available. Secondly, the person has to have the skills to do it. Thirdly, the family has to have some assets, on the basis of which, one or two family members can go out of the locality, leave their present job as farm labor, and take a, ``risk.`` If my father did not have any assets, I could not have quit my job in Pakistan and moved to the USA. I could not take that risk.

For jobs to be created, the economy has to grow. Once it grows, menial skill-less jobs will be created. These jobs can then be taken by someone with no skills, i.e a labourer on the field owned by a feudal. Not only does the labourer have no skills, he doesn`t even know his rights. He thinks the feudal can kidnap his kids anytime he wants (which he can). In some cases, the feudal is also the local pir, who has a divine right to lord over them.......

This is why I think economic growth in Pakistan, at least for ten years or more, has to be given pririoty over anything else. Including elections, if necessary. Elections will not break the back of the feudal. Economic growth will. This is why, invariably, feudals are agaisnt economic growth in their areas. And are very pro elections under the current system........

Pakistan grew at a pheonomal 8.4% this year. It grew around 6.5% last year. It is predicted to now grow consistently at 7%. The per capita income has now grown to around $770 (?). All of this is going to create the jobs. And the cycle or moving to a rural society, from a feudal one, will start.

What should happen now is for an urban progressive party to get elected into power, and for Pakistan to be a democracy. However, that requires a pre-requisite of no feudalism. If elections are held today, PPP and PML will storm into power like always.......

However, if Pakistan can grow at 7% for 10 years or more, enough economic growth may have occured where the peasants in the feudal lands will be well-connected to the urban economy. At that point, it will be impossible for the feudals to control their livelihood. They will vote independently. Pakistan will transition from a feudal society to a rural society, like India. And then there will be deomcracy..........

This will the equivalent of the 1000 villagers getting together and kicking out the feudal in the example that Anil mentioned.....

My biggest concern is that PPP and/or PML will once again get uncontrolled power, through the same electoral system. And they will ensure that the economy goes down. Since economic progress is the death sentence for feudalism. Specially PPP, since PML now does have some business influence at the top (though the core of the party is still landowners). People like Nawaz Sharif etc. are businessman. PPP is still all feudal at the top..........

The whole cycle of democracy assumes that people are free to vote as they want. If they aren`t, as is the case in feudal countries, then there cannot be any democracy, even if elections occur............

Unfortunately, the only force I can see on the horizon that is speaking up for the poor folk, and allowing them democratic representation are the maulvis. There cadre and many of their elected leaders are from the poor class. It has put farmers and poor mosque imams into the assemblies. Some of their top leaders are, at best, upper-middle class (like us Chowkies). Unlike feudal parties, whose top leders are all elites, who don`t have to work a single day in their life. MMA (specifically Jamaat-i-Islami) is the only major party in Pakistan which is internally democratic, and holds elections and is not heridatory (generally). And has a hierachy, where any party member can move up the ranks. Their leadership grew, generally, from the middle and lower middle class.........Many of them were student leaders, from lower middle class backgrounds. It is only the dirt poor who go to madrassahs, because they have no where else to go.........and these then join MMA, along with various other students from Jamiaat in non-madrassah institutions also.........

If feudalism is not removed through economic progress, the peasants will remain poor. Their only emotional outlet will be religion. Their only educational outlet will be madrassahs. Their only political outlet will be religious parties........Thus the religious parties might sweep the feudals out..........However, they will bring in new problems of their own (especially for urban women and religious minorities). I think they will actually be better for the village peasants than any other party. Becasue they will give them a voice. But they will be worse for the urban folk. And disastrous for all us upper class Chowk Pakistanis.....Because they won`t let us party.........This is why you find many of the Chowk Pakistanis very anti-maulvi parties and somewhat pro fedual parties. Because the later suppress the peasants, but allow us Chowkies to party in Lahore and Karachi. Much of the English speaking press is like that also. Very anti-maulvi, but relatively pro-feudal, since the later are liberal in the citites. While the Urdu speaking press leans more towards the religous forces.........

Then there are a few like me, who are anti-feudal parties and anti-maulvi parties, and very pro-anyone who can establish economic growth (preferably in an elected fashion, but even if that entity happens to be unelected).....

Once Pakistan advances from a feudal to a rural society, I will also join the group of ``elections at all cost.`` A group I used to naively belong to ten years ago. At that point, without feudalism, elections after elections will make a difference..............

HP:
#90

I wasn’t invoking professional qualifications to state the obvious. I was explaining to Romair the transition in my thought process. Khair…let bygones be bygones. I don’t fly off the handle that easily so I doubt If I would be irked at the engineer you gave an example of. I work with people whose theoretical underpinnings, not to mention ideologies are sometimes at polar ends, yet we all manage to put our differences aside to get the job done.

Look, I know the results of abrupt change are terrible and I mentioned that to Romair when I said “shock therapy” can be even more dehumanizing than the original systems. I think we saw this several years ago when the former Soviet Union was undergoing market reforms.

It’s just that the more involved I become in disenfranchised communities (even on a local U.S. level) the more I begin to realize how monstrous these problems are and how no one solution will ever be enough. So yes, sometimes it is tempting to want a clean slate to help people. But I know that is not possible and we all have to work through the problems we have inherited.

I too believe that grassroots/indigenous change is an important facet of development, but I think it needs to be empowered much more.

Beej:
#91
You managed to put a smile on my face in the middle of a crazy day. Thank you for that :).

I too am getting my lengthy response to these weighty issues ready....

Sorry to get in a bit late.

Haven’t we been here before? Oops, that was the lady doctor case! By the way, whatever happened to HER? Ooops again, about bringing that one up – I forgot that’s not the current cup of tea! Never worry, this discussion will be permanently relevant for we will always have a few more cases coming up and we can recycle the same arguments all over again! (Save your text drafts!)

The real problem of course is the mindset that this particular lady (as well as the lady doctor and the countless others that have passed through those infamous lanes of justice) was perfectly willing to live under the current setup, where women are pretty much “pair ki jootis” and VERY comfortable with it, until something happened to one PERSONALLY!

What causes that mindset? Let’s follow the leads – if we dare, and face it - be it the beards, the feudal, the khakis, the whatever – and come up with the same course of action that we paraded only a few thousand times before – nothing, for WE are very comfortable where WE are!

What’s my solution? Wait till my next post, until I get around to it. But in the meanwhile, let me jot down below a few highlights of the discussion so far and my two cents on them! Here is MY selection of the golden nuggets from this ongoing verbal calisthenics. (If you don’t like it, go make your own.)

Note:

[She ranks up among other women like Mother Theresa and Aung Sang Suu Kyi, Rosa Parks, and even Joan of Arc, women of conscience with an extreme sensibility for a type of justice that is painted in black and white, with no shades of gray. ]
Although the intentions are noble, don`t you think this is a little of a stretch, Bina?

#13 by ana
You may have a point – yes a tiny spark can cause a massive explosion, but not if the gunpowder is all wet!

#16 by Mantolives
[…we need a Pakistan that respects human rights, rule of law and where peoples` rights are protected without any discrimination of religion, gender or caste.]
And how does one go about it?

#19 by miriamk
[I believe she will triumph in spite of them. ]
And pray HOW?

#22 by Romair on June 2, 2005 9:57am PT
[This whole system needs to be dismantled.]
And pray HOW?

#32 by anil
[…Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil.]
If only pictures could kill!

[To me empowerment of girls and women is the only answer.]
And pray HOW?

#36 by Romair
[It is impossible to understand it from a distance.....]
But definitely possible to SOLVE it in THIS forum!

[The only other solution is economic progress, at a national level….. If one brother or son can get a job in the city, in a growing economy, then the family becomes somewhat independent of the feudal…]
A little hazy on details, but at least you are suggesting something. Are you saying that the khakis need to hang around – and after ALL problems are taken care of, willingly relinquish power?

#39 by Romair
[The key is to take away their lands and distribute it to the peasant tillers of the land. I belive Nehru did that with the Nawabs. That will break their back.]
You think the ARMY will do that?

#53 by Romair
This is among the few sober inputs I see on this board. However, there is too much discussion of causes but hardly a roadmap on what to do.

#59 by anil
[Mukhtar Mai was powerless, until media and support organizations stepped in. That is where victims power comes from.]
And of course, they will spotlight each and every such case in a cost-effective manner!

[South Asia has a history of changing such power equations to gain independence from the British. Gandhi did it for India. Jinnah did it for Pakistan.]
This is interesting! So there were two independence movements - run in parallel! (Keep talking, we can always relearn (and perhaps rewrite) history!)

[May be even the support of liberal mullahs might be needed as they have a hold on the belief system of these villagers.]
A liberal mullah – Anil, how do you spell “oxymoron”?

#62 by Romair
[It can simply pass laws, …Once that is done, the problem is solved. …This has actually happened in parts of Pakistan. Specifically in Punjab. ]
Isn’t Punjab where the power base of the much-maligned army lies?

#74 by miriamk
[I’m going to have to think about this. Does the chicken come before the egg or vice versa?]
Finally somebody comes up with a problem that’s sure to get solved!

#89 by miriamk

I really did not mean to be that harsh. What upset me was your invoking professional qualifications to write something you expect from a layman. Wouldn’t you be somewhat irked if an aeronautical engineer tells you that F-16 can fly w/o wings?

Dismantling the primitive system is a different thing. Dismantling can be a process that could take time. Only people who tried to uproot the system were Leninist in 1917 but within just a couple of years they were thinking about handing over lands back to peasants. The massacres in Russia of 1930s were a direct result of economic reforms and uprooting going haywire. The soviet system never recovered from that therapy.

The military-civil bureaucracy nexus in Pakistan has turned Pakistan into an adhoc state where nobody dares to apply sound economic principals to the economy.

Whatever growth we see in Pakistan is indigenous. The dismantling of the feudal system is a process that would take its own manifestation, if planned and well thought out intervention in the system is not carried out. The army brings non professional approach to the economy because its first instinct is to protect its own interests. Other interested groups in the society feed off them and attempt to preserve the army in the power.

Any abrupt change in the system would render the countryside in to a turmoil and tens of thousands of people would begin to move to the cities w/o any hope for making a worth while living. We see this phenomenon in India and Bangladesh, where millions can’t find employment anywhere and now Bangladeshis are moving to neighboring countries in droves. Big landholdings if managed properly become a source of employment for landless peasants and make them stay in the area instead of moving to other areas causing huge disruption in the civic as well as in the political structure.

HP:
#88

You are taking one word out of context and using it to make a point. And that’s alright, each to his own. By “uprooting” I didn’t mean let’s kill all the Feudals. And you are quite
wrong, many “sane” economists have advocated the dismantling of “primitive systems” as they can be an impediment to development. But I’m not going to take space here to explain their ideas, misguided or not.

I am aware of the dualities, disparities, and bottlenecks that exist in developing countries. Pakistan is not the only country to have them.

If you care to discuss or debate this issue then please do so in the context of the topic without being unnecessarily rude. It is possible to debate issues without taking personal shots at people you don’t know. I`ve only been active on Chowk for the last couple of weeks but have tried my best to not become tangled in personal insults, and I am not going to begin now.

So, I guess in that spirit I accept your apology :).

#72 by miriamk

“Now, at the tail end of my degree and much more disillusioned, I am convinced that these oppressive systems have to be uprooted all at once. If they aren’t, real economic development can never take place.”

If this is what you learned, then I am afraid your degree is wasted and may be you need to get a doctorate in something you would understand better. I am not trying to belittle your intelligence but somebody who is working for a doctorate in Economics should have been careful in writing something that would easily blow up in the face.
What is “Uprooting” in Economics terms? No sane economist would ever talk about uprooting because there is no such term in Economics. The accepted “uprooting” would be to find and shoot all feudal in Pakistan-Something even the commies did not do in 1917- , once you shoot them you will have to shoot all their daughters, wives, sister, Sons, and grand kids too because the lands would automatically go to the next of kin and they will be the next feudal.
Contrary to the dream world that “green” or naïve economists like you and Romair live in, the hard reality is that you have to follow a process to remove the vestiges of the feudal system from the society.
It would hard for me to put everything together about feudalism in one short post but something that you need to understand is that the feudal or the feudalism just wont go away with a stroke of brush or Nazi-like actions. I would strongly recommend that you study Land reforms in several Indian states starting in 1960 to really understand why in some areas it was successful and in other it is was a failure.
The feudalism in Pakistan is in more primitive state of mind that it ever was in India. Neither the Indian politics nor the Indian agriculture has been able to completely rid of feudal influences from the society despite reforms in the system beginning in the 60s. For starter, study local politics in Bihar, UP and Rajasthan, and see how adversely the remnants of the feudal culture impact those areas.
Like many economies in the third world, Pakistan economy is not in a single state. Different areas have progressed differently and gap is huge. While Balochistan is still struggling with most primitive tribal society, just a couple of hundred miles away Karachi is thriving as the biggest services and Industrial city in Pakistan. Cities in the Interior Sindh are not growing because the population sees no incentive to leave their villages and income from agriculture; the villages in Punjab are becoming centers of small home industries as people are looking to supplement their income by working in the small industries.
There is a huge disparity in economic and social structure in Pakistan that causes the system to behave erratically and different segments of the population take advantage of it.

You wanna study Pakistani politics and economy first. You need to figure out why tribal Sardars in Balochistan hate the army and the tribes in NWFP are one of the biggest recruiting grounds for the Army. Why the feudal in Sindh stay with PPP and the Industrialists from Lahore and Faisalabad are always looking to find a way to work with the army.
I apologize, if I sound harsh to you. Good luck in your doctorate thesis.


PS. I will read rest of your posts on subject too.

miriam:

But one thing is undeniable; without education democratic institutions are not possible.

notice the irony?...some say we are the (chosen) people of the Book!

yes yes and yes!...without education it is impossible to dream of a tolerant society...without education we cannot dream of moving forward...without education we cannot shove the khakis back to the barracks;)

Temp:
#82
I do agree with you about the hegemony of the Pakistani Army, but I’m just playing the devil’s advocate here, so bear with me ;).

Have our “democratically” elected officials done a better job? (i.e Benazir, and Nawaz Sharif). Haven’t they, especially Sharif acted as despots?

You pointed out India as being better off due to more democratic institutions (and you are right there also) but I think one of the reasons India is able to do that and we aren’t is that their education system outranks ours.

You and I have discussed this previously but when a large percentage of the population is uneducated they are inevitably marginalized from the political process and whether it’s the army or someone like Sharif, they are going to take advantage of that situation.

So, I guess it goes back to your point of education and my point of socio-economic policy (without which investment in social programs can’t occur).

In our lifetime? I don’t know Temp. It certainly would be nice but there are so many vested interests in Pakistan; all tacitly supporting the other. But one thing is undeniable; without education democratic institutions are not possible.

mariamk #72: `` think you and I may have found something to agree on.``

I think there might me quite a few things you and I agree on........

``Feudalism is perhaps the biggest impediment to economic development. Several years ago when I started my doctorate studies in economics I was very green, very idealistic, and very non-mainstream``

If you are researching the subject, you should do one thing, definitely. Go live in the feudal areas for an extended amount of time. There are various govt. jobs (military, civil services, large private projects like dams etc.) that will allow you to be stationed right in the middle of those area. Once you have lived there for about a year, you will forget about all other problems Pakistan has. What the maulvis do at marathons etc. will seem minor nuisances, compared to what you will see there.

Pakistani feudalism, is, unfortunately, romanticised by too many individuals. There are even individuals who try to say it is dying (when it isn`t) and that it is nothing bad. The story of Mukhtar Mai seems to have shocked everyone. It didn`t really shock me, as much as most. Because I can see how something like this can happen.

One of the sites I can never forget is when you drive through the areas, you see little girls in dirty clothes working in the fields. When the car passes by, they stare at you. When you go meet the guy who owns the lands and his children, they seem like the most educated and sophisticated people in Pakistan. As I said, it wouldn`t be uncommon to find them on this site..........

``Socio-economic development is a necessary precursor to democracy``

Yes. This is the key. For a long time, I, like many on this site, naively believed that elections are the answer to everything. They will break the back of every problem in Pakistan. I am no longer so naive. Elections can only do that in countries that have the pre-requisites of democracy in place. One of which is, no feudalism.