Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

Romair #95

Once Pakistan advances from a feudal to a rural society, I will also join the group of ``elections at all cost.`` A group I used to naively belong to ten years ago. At that point, without feudalism, elections after elections will make a difference......

this is a fallacy and i disagree (#82, 83, 87)

the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...

once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...it won`t be an easy task...our neighbours have been doing precisely that since `47...and they are still far from doing that mile in under four...but they are far ahead of us...(this is used as an example)...so far ahead that we cannot see them over the horizon!

imho nothing can work to benefit the citizenry unless and until the army is firmly out of the equation...only then the journey to rebuild pakistan can earnestly begin

t

Romair #95

Once Pakistan advances from a feudal to a rural society, I will also join the group of ``elections at all cost.`` A group I used to naively belong to ten years ago. At that point, without feudalism, elections after elections will make a difference......

this is a fallacy and i disagree (#82, 83, 87)

the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...

once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...it won`t be an easy task...our neighbours have been doing precisely that since `47...and they are still far from doing that mile in under four...but they are far ahead of us...(this is used as an example)...so far ahead that we cannot see them over the horizon!

imho nothing can work to benefit the citizenry unless and until the army is firmly out of the equation...only then the journey to rebuild pakistan can earnestly begin

t

miriam:

one more ps:

to meet a mid level official a visitor is screened at least six times…(my count – last visit to isloo)…to meet a general or higher you can imagine the security checks and screenings…

…disgraced national hero dr. abdul qadeer khan (poor fellow was made a scapegoat)…could not swat a fly without authorities getting wind of his actions…yet when the beltway bandits or the foggy bottom supplied info that Pakistan is doing business in nuclear proliferation under the noses of sanctions and international guidelines a chastised khan was paraded before the nation…made to apologise in public…and pardoned…all within seven days…

….the occupying army thinks we are fools…sure dr. khan sold the information and equipment with full knowledge of the army big wigs… it is defying logic and common sense that he would have carried on this business right under the GHQ nose…impossible!…now the query…why was he pardoned in a jiffy?...

…surely the thought did not cross their machiavellian minds that dr. khan would spill the beans and names the general involved in the side- venture?…of course, they just did it because he was a national hero and not even dubya could force the faujis to humiliate him for any longer period…it was done in the national interest…

also pps: sorry for posting 97 twice

tehsah #96: ``My point is simply that firstly; the sex in any form is not a crime as such. Qurane hakim says, “Women are your tilth (kheti) which may be used in any manner you like``..........In fact a lot of men and women would like to be raped, more so, if it is administered judicially in the manner done to Mukhtaran..........The real justice aught to be ‘rape for rape’ as demanded by the principle of ‘Qasaas’ and not publicity and money for the rape victim.``

So basically what you are stating is that people like to be raped, on occassion, and that rape for rape is justice.........Not to get personal, but seriously speaking, would you like to get raped, if the opportunity presented itself? And where exactly does it state that rape for rape is a just punishment? Not to mention the fact that it can be administrated by a panchayat? And how in the world would a women rape a man, specifically in Pakistan, to begin with? So your solution would imply that if a man rapes a woman, then, as a punishment that man`s female relative should get raped??

Following is your description in your profile:

``I am a retired public servant passing my free time by reading and writing, both in Urdu and English. I belong to the generation which sang songs of Mother India with Allama Iqbal but also had a passion for Pakistan to the extent of `Janoon`. We saw Qaid-e-Azam and heard his speaches but were also inspired by Gandhi and Nehru for their freedom movement.``

Could I ask you which branch of the civil services you belonged to......And what you like to read?

Bina_Shah #57: ``You are completely incorrect about me, Romair, but we`ll leave my background for another day...``

I did not ask you for your background. You are the one who stated I was addressing you. When infact I never mentioned your name. Nor was I addressing you. But, since you are the author, and have yourself brought up the topic, hence I think it is the reader`s perrogative to have information about where the author is coming from.........

So, where exactly are you coming from? Are you from a feudal family, yourself? This is what I assume you implied, when you stated that I was talking about u. It`s a very fair question. Specifically, in relation to this article........

``I`ve given some of your statements to some of my family members to read, and I must say they have had a good laugh out of them. For example, ``Letting them own the land``? That`s a good one.``

What`s so funny about this? Becoming owners of one`s own land is the easiest way to empower someone. I am surprised people would laugh at this. This is the basis of land reforms, i.e. breaking down large landholdings into smaller ones, so that one person cannot influence a whole area.

Either the land should be owned by a larger group of people, individually. Or they govt. should own it. Are you against land reforms, and people owning their own land?

P.S. it is interesting to see people assume certain comments are about them, when, in fact, I have no idea who those people are. Chor kee darhi mein tinka :-)

Temp
#99

I hear you T. It is a tangled web they weave, etc. etc. :). Sigh...

p.s. check your email

temporal #97: ``the cancer that is eating Pakistan is the occupying army...that is the final culprit, god, terminal cancer... not the feudals, bureaucrats, mullahs, bugtis, mengals, chaudhries, pagaros, fahims, altafs...once it ceases to be in the power equation the civilians would learn to stand, stumble, walk and run the mile in under four...``

I don`t agree with this. Even if you type it in bold capitals. And not just in bold small letters.....

I think there are three factors that act as a regressive force in Pakistani politics. Not just one. And they act regressively in different areas. They are feudals, maulvis and Army. These are, interestingly, the three most powerful political forces in Pakistan, also.

However, the catalyst in starting a cycle towards creating and empowering a large urban middle class will be strong economic growth. All of us on Chowk are not affected by this, because we are already rich. But if you look at surveys in Pakistan, you will see that economic growth and jobs are the top priority. Moreso than issues that come up regularly on Chowk, like democracy, elections, secularism, shariah, Kashmir etc.......

I think all our Chowk views represent a tiny insignificant, relatively elitist, minority in Pakistan. In the big scheme of things, we are statistically a completely skewed representation of Pakistan............

Romair:#103:

I think there are three factors that act as a regressive force in Pakistani politics. Not just one. And they act regressively in different areas. They are feudals, maulvis and Army. These are, interestingly, the three most powerful political forces in Pakistan, also.

alright, lets take them one by one in the light of the following queries

(a) feudals, (b) maulvis and (c) the occupying army

1: who holds the ultimate power in today’s Pakistan?
2: whose budget appropriations cannot be collectively or line by line questioned by the highest elected body in the country?
3: who can appoint and dismiss government leaders at will
4: who has the doog-duggi (small drum) and who dances to it?
5: where does the buck finally stops?

:)

my answer is obvious…hint: it is not (a) and (b)

rgds

t

ps: i would welcome other chowkies considered opinion on this subject

pps: rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out...let the child stand, stumble, walk, run through trial and error

temporal #104: Are you suggesting the maulvis are not an issue, at all? Or the feudals? Suppose an Iranian type revolution occured in Pakistan, overthrowing all the forces - Army, feudals, us upperclass elite on Chowk (which we are regardless of how much we try to deny it). You would be alright with that?

It is actually not that difficult to get rid of Army rule. All people have to do is come out into the streets, in large numbers.........Why do you think the average middle class urbanite in Pakistan is not doing that right now? I think it is because they are fed up with the alternatives of Zardari and Qazi Hussain............And they are happy seeing the economy rise.....

Army, in politics and business, is not the solution. It is, in the long run, part of the problem. But it is only a portion of the problem. There are other portions, also, which you seem unwilling to acknowledge............No Army in the world can throw out any leadership that has middle class popularity and middle class leadership.........

``rebuilding of pakistan imho will only begin when army is removed from the equation and the citizenry including all the other forces mentioned by you, me and others battle it out``

I don`t agree with this. If you ask a maulvi, he will say rebuilding of Pakistan will being, when all non-religious forces are removed. If you ask someone who is secular, they will say it will begin when all maulvis are kicked out. Everyone thinks their group is perfect and others are the problem.......

Rebuilding of Pakistan will begin, when all regressive forces are kicked out. It will not begin by replacing one with the other. And that will only happen, when everyone has some economic assets. And that will happen when the economy grows.........

For a country like Pakistan, the first and foremost priority should be growth of economy and creation of jobs, by anyone - be they a leftist labor leader or a pro-USA army general.

I sense there are a quite a few individuals on this site, who are scared of the status-quo of Pakistan being shaken by a growing economy, and want things as they are and as they were............

“I don`t agree with this. Even if you type it in bold capitals. And not just in bold small letters.....”

Four expressions and a song come to mind…

Raj hut, Ballak hut, Tirya hut, and the biggest of them all “hut dharam!”

And the song…

Na manoon, Na manoon, Na manoon ray,
Temporal teri batiyan Na manoon ray!

All Interactors:

Here is how I see the discussions developing so far on this board:

All of you agree that:

(1) The Pakistani society is all messed up,
(2) It needs a strong supporting structure to stabilize it while it “heals”, and
(3) At this moment, the three potential supporting structures are (a) the army, (b) the politicians, and (c) the religious forces

There is serious disagreement among y’all on which one it should be.

(1) Romair believes that for now, it should be the army.
(2) Temporal believes that forever, it should be anybody but the army.
(3) (Miriamk agrees with both Romair and Temporal.)

Please continue talking, while I find the ultimate solution – a truly unique one which NOBODY on this board has come up with yet (yes, there is such a solution, just bear with me, please!)

Thanks.

Romair,

Please for once.
Say that you were talking about Mantolives.

I mean, please! Just once, say that you meant Mantolives, when you were talking about Feudals.

Thanks.

The ultimate solution:

The ultimate solution, the ultimate stabilizing power for Pakistan (at least in the short run) must meet ALL of the following criteria:

(1) Must be human.
(2) Must be alive.
(3) Must be widely popular in Pakistan.
(4) Must have a track record for mobilizing large populations in streets (so the army will never think of taking over again)
(5) Must be liked by the army, the politicians, and the religious forces
(6) Must have enough assets of own (so there won’t ever be a need to rip off the Pakistani treasury)
(7) Must have not a single accusation of corruption against him/her in a single Pakistani court of law
(8) Must have a good, harmonious rapport with minorities and a proven track record of protecting minority lives and rights
(9) Must have a desire to rule and the necessary political experience to stay in power, and
(10) Must be available, and if not, the current employers must be absolutely unhesitant to let him go.

Is there such a person? Is it even possible?

Don’t you worry, my very dear Pakistani brothers and sisters, there IS such a person.

Dear friends, never ever stop from thinking “outside the box”!

And to find out who this agent for change is - this ultimate answer to all of our combined prayers, please click here.!

Thanks.

beejay,

arre, be serious! that was good though. :)

..... what does all this have to do with the price of tea in china ?


........... i still don`t understand why women are relegated to third class status and abused in peshawar, islamabad, the tribal territories, lahore, gujranwala and karachi where there are no feudals for miles around .............. why does unwashed and unemployed abdul, who sits on the wall all day long soaking the sun and watching the trafiic , visually undress and rape any woman passing by ?........... why is it that the first thing you notice when you land in pakistan is the eerie absence of women from the streets ?............. why do women end up eating chicken necks and fish heads ? ............... what does the army or the feudal have to do with the neanderthal mindset of the pakistani male ?

........... i read through some of the posts on this board and i am sorry to say that most of them are sheer rubbish, bumkum, doo doo, drivel and regurgitated nonsense .......... according to our resident mr knowitall, romair, if we maintain a growth rate of 7.237 % rapes will go down by 28.75 % and according to temporal if the people of pakistan are allowed to eat any other brand of cereal other than the crap from the almighty fauji foundation, women will be able to walk down the mall in halter tops without getting molested by bearded demons ............... there might be some merit to the argument that the goons in khaki are leeches and parasites, but it still does not explain the way women are treated all over pakistan ............ and the feudals of southern punjab and sindh might not be the nicest guys in the world but i doubt if they go around raping women as a pastime .................. there is something fundamentally wrong with the pakistani society .........

# 111

`` .......... there is something fundamentally wrong with the pakistani society ....... ``


Umbilical cord that ties you with the 7th century social value system of Bedouins.

Cut it like Turkish did it and everything will be fine.