Why Mukhtar Mai Matters

Re: # 23
Romair,
You should read My Feudal Lord by Tehmina Durrani.

urstruly #25:

poor nazish bhatti...

can i make a suggestion? since you are more familiar with her case, why don`t you pen an article for chowk?

rgds

t

re: This article
Indeed, Mukhtaran Mai`s courage is commendable. I am not sure i agree to author`s claim that her actions have produced many changes in the Pak society. Would the author care to explain what these changes are?
Pak is a feudalistic society. Rapes happen even in western society but is dealt as a crime and the criminals are punished. In Pak, this is not just rape but a humiliation perpetrated on the women by men and this is done legally, in front of a crowd. What a shame?
Has Mukhtaran Mai`s case produced any change in the feudal structure of the country? Have the criminals been punished?
The only solution i see is the empowerment of women in villages through a democratic process. While caste based rapes are common in UP and Bihar, they hardly heppen in Kerala because Kerala has empowered its women. That is why the lieteracy rate is high there.
Let Pakis who worry about these things first kick their dictator out and usher in a people`s democracy. Otherwise, let them shut up and not shed crocodile tears on this or any other forum.
Sridhar

Re: # 27

I just did, with pictures and all.

[Usually we in Pakistan expect the rich to champion the cause of the poor, we expect men to champion the cause of women, and adults to champion the cause of children.]

... thats our dilemma, indeed. very aptly said Bina.

Wish we all could live up to the spirit of Mukhtara Mai. Salutations to her and her courage.
great article Bina, an eye-opener and a reinvigorator.

Urstruly #25 Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words...the motherly and womanly determination on her face tells a lot about her stance in the name of justice!

#25 urstruly you put the finger, no forget it, put just punched the point home...sad but true. THere is no point in shouting yourself hoarse over it. You need to empower the women (as i said on the othe rthread) and as rsridhar has said here. Empowerment is not just literacy, but knowledge of rights. The moment this is done you will witness miracles. An educated mother is often a great softener attitudes in men, and a giver of spine to women.
Look forward to your article.

Re: # 25

Bina:

In Urstruly`s (#25) post: Nazish Bhatti`s eyes show a scared and fearful girl. Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil. Can anyone now with evil intentions come closer to Mukthar Mai to gang rape and abuse her?

This transformation is possible only through empowerment of women. Mukthar Mai now feels empowered. No law, no system can achieve empowerment, they can at best be helpful. Sridhar is correct the rape incidences in Kerala are the lowest. Women literacy there ranks with the west, while Bihar and eastern U.P. are completely opposite in women empowerment and rape incidences.

A few months back, a Pakistani friend had invited me to a fund raiser in Silicon Valley for girls education and empowerment, I was very happy to give in my contribution.

Media must lend voice to women before they become victim. As they say in the U.S. that the most rapists are coward, and with scream for help and self-defense, the rapist run for their life. This, no doubt, is an individual example from the west, where an individual can feel empowered and therefore safe, but the message and method are valid for every where, even for Paksitan and India. Even the most powerful fuedal and his gang of potential rapists, and members of Jirga would not be able to stand up to the determination of 1,000 villagers, who would no longer be silent witnesses to the crime that thru tradition and religion have been brainwashed to believe it the law.

How do you bring this change, is the question? To me empowerment of girls and women is the only answer. Everyone of these slient witnesses have mothers, wives, sisters and daughters, therefore, only they can transform their father, husband, brothers and sons from remaining approving and silent witnesses into a determined group to change people from committing crime in the name of tradition, religion and yes, law.

Anil Kapuria

dear manto. . .

i could have confused the two. . but i could have sworn i saw that listed as his last name when i looked at his page a coupla months ago. . . khair, better off not talking about either h`s. more important things at hand here.

thanks for the correction. :)

Re: # 23
My question to female gender!
If the women like the feudals like Khar what the poor would do to quench their urge for sex? Either to fast as advised by Islam or try to rape which every woman would perhaps wish to undergo especially after Mukhtaran mai`s shamelessness has been glamourized by the NGOs in the name of Women`s Rights? I would advise women not to make it a gender issue which shows that the woman is not a human being but a sub-human sex-object.

hunh?

#24 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:43am PT

#25 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 10:45am PT

#27 by temporal on June 2, 2005 1:09pm PT

#29 by Urstruly on June 2, 2005 1:42pm PT

rsidhar #28: ``The only solution i see is the empowerment of women in villages through a democratic process.``

Your comment about education is correct. However the method for reaching that state is incorrect.

I am not sure how many feudal areas you have lived in Pakistan. Or observed. I have lived in two for about two and half to three years. One has to actually live there to understand what is going on. It is impossible to understand it from a distance.....

There is a big difference between rural and feudal. I think many Indians have a difficult time comprehending that. India is perhaps rural, though not feudal. Parts of Pakistan are rural but not feudal. For example, my vilallage in Kashmir is rural, but not feudal. Pakistan`s Kashmir is on the whole not feudal. Neither is most of Punjab now (other than the south).

In my village, there is now a women`s college being constructed. There are women who are in civil services and what not. Their literacy rate is high. They are confident. etc. Even though the area is not wealthy. That is where your solution of empowering women, through democracy will work. Why? Specifically because there is no one powerful individual in the area, who can forcefully win elections.............Name one powerful political in Pakistan, who is from Kashmir (not ethnically Kashmiri, but living there)......It is a relatively egalatarian rural area..........As are areas like Jehlum, Chakwal, etc. in Punjab.......

However, your solutions based on elections will not work in the feudal areas. The feudals of Pakistan are the biggest supporters of status-quo electoral system. They are always on the forefront in, ``fighting`` for it. They wouldn`t be on the forefront, if they thought it would make them lose their power. They are on the forefront, because they know that the status-quo system will ensure they remain in power, by getting elected again and again, thorugh a screwed up system, under which they can own large amounts of land and pay bare minimum taxes on it, and control the lives of the individuals living on their land...........

There is no profession, in Pakistan, where every major player is in politics, except feudalism. All the doctors aren`t in politics. Neither are the businessman or teachers.......Why are the feudals all in politics? Think about it.......

Pakistan`s elected assembly has traditionally been 60-66% feudal. Always. Other than now, when the maulvis have won some seats. Why in the world will these feudals change the rules that keep them in power? Why will Mustafa Khar change the rules? Or Amin Fahim? Or Leghari? These people send their own daughters to Oxford and Harvard, and ensure that women on, ``their`` lands get no education and work in their fields from the age of 10 till they are grandmothers........I have seen it with my own eyes........

Go visit some of these areas. Live there. Do you think any woman can vote against her feudal master, if he can hold a panchayat and get her gang-raped? Every women isn`t Mukhtar Mai........

The best solution is to forcefully break the back of the feudals. Unfortuantely, no one, including the Army is willing to do that, when in power. I think the maulvis will do it, but they have other issues........Maulvis, by the way, are the only group the feudals are truly afraid of. This is also why, while I don`t want maulvis running Pakistan, I am not as harsh on them as many on this site. Because, in my opinion, Fazl ur Rahman, with all his faults is still better than Mustafa Khar.........To the best of my knowledge there have been no panchayat orgranized gang rapes in areas run by maulvis. They only happen in areas run by feudals..........

The only other solution is economic progress, at a national level. This will give the people living in these areas, the opportunities to get jobs in the cities. If one brother or son can get a job in the city, in a growing economy, then the family becomes somewhat independent of the feudal (who in many cases own a major chunk of their whole constituency). Then they can slowly start to demand their rights, and maybe even vote for someone who is not a feudal, in their areas..........

PPP and PML are the two largest political parties in Pakistan. In every election, one of the two wins. And nearly all the honor killings and panchyat based rapes occur in areas ruled by their elected feudal members, under their approval..........They only propose bills against honor killings etc. when they are in opposition, to make the other party look bad. Never, when they are in power. PPP has run Sind for ages. It gets elected hands down there. Why in the world has it not finished this system, in areas which its MNAs literally own and run?

Do explain to me, how elections, in the current status-quo system are going to solve all of this?

P.S. The current govt. has forcefully, outside of democracy, given 33% of the seats in local councils to women. And a very large number in the National Assembly. Pakistan now has more percentage of women in its federal assemblies than the USA (or India). It has also given religious minorities more enfranchment than evern the majorities. All of this is technically illegal and unConstitutional, since the govt. is unConstitutional. However, I support these measures. Because there is absolutely no way any elected govt., with the PPP or PML running it, would have empowered women like this. Or empowered minorities in the assemblies. Absolutely no chance..........

tehsah #34: ``If the women like the feudals like Khar what the poor would do to quench their urge for sex?``

I am not sure what you are trying to say......

Please read, My Feudal Lord, by Tahmina Khar, to understand what happens. Women apparently do get attracted to Khar. She certainly did. They will get attracted to many feduals. Because many of them, while in the cities, are quite urbane, westernized, educated etc. A huge lot of them is educated abroad. I wouldn`t be surprised if some of their kids are writing on this site. Some of them write in the most liberal magazines of Pakistan, pushing progressive liberalism.

However, they show their true colors when they are in their own lands.........

Mukhtar Mai is one person. Her story was picked up by the press. Had it not been, no one would have known who she was. She would be another statistic. The whole system has to change. Especially the electoral system that allows feudals, like Khar etc. to reach a position where they are responsible for making the laws to protect women.....Its like making the jackal the gaurdian of the melon fields............

....Khar is not the only one. The current head of PPP, and perhaps future Prime Minister of Pakistan, Amin Fahim, has four sisters married to the Quran.....this is done to maintain ownership of feudal lands, so they don`t get distributed......If a person believes in such things in his personal life, why will he change it for the rest of the country.....They are all scoundrels.........And, at least in my opinion, a scoundrel remains a scoundrel, even if he wins an election........

You can walk across all corners of Pakistan. Every group - maulvis, military, businessman, ethnic centers, professionals, farmers, fishermen, progressives, liberals, conservatives, traditionalists, edeucated, uneducated, etc - they all will have a lot of problems. Corruption, nepotism, bribery, backwardness, violence, lack of respect for the Constitution etc.

But there is no locality that is run by any of the above-mentioned groups, where you will find somone persiding over a panchayat that orders the gang-rape of a woman, as a form of punishment. Qazi Hussain, and his maulvis for all their ill-intentioned religious rhetoric will never oder something like this. Musharraf and his generals, for all their violations of the Constitution, will not either. Neither will MQM with all their ethnic violence. Nor any other group.

There is only group that will do such a thing. And that is the feudals. Doesn`t matter if they are religious or secular, educated or uneducated. Liberal or conservative. This is the system they want to keep in place...........And they do this, by overwhelmingly dominating the politics of Pakistan............

Re: # 33

Agreed...

Anil #32: ``Even the most powerful fuedal and his gang of potential rapists, and members of Jirga would not be able to stand up to the determination of 1,000 villagers, who would no longer be silent witnesses to the crime that thru tradition and religion have been brainwashed to believe it the law.``

I don`t think the belief is based on religion. People may believe and use Islam (or any other religion) to keep their daughters from going to co-education schools. But I don`t think they will use it to consider gang-rape a correct form of punishment. I am not sure, but I believe, in Mukhtar Mai`s case, the local maulvi actually helped her. And incidently, nearly all the feudals in Pakistan are secular, politically. Nearly all of them belong to PPP and PML. None of them belongs to the relgious parties (this is not to say that they support gang-rapes becuase they are secular).

It has, at certain levels, to do with age-old tradition, where one thinks the jagirdar is the king. However, I think even an animal would know and demand its rights, if it could, if it were to be gang-raped. I am sure, everyone related to Mukhtar Mai would have wanted to protect her, regardless of tradition. If they could........

The cause is the lack of power of the individuals. There is a difference between rape as a crime. And between a group, implicitly ordering a gang-rape, under the open sky, as a form of judicial punishment. This means the group making the decision had no fear of anyone. The reason they don`t have any fear is because they are under the protection of a powerful jagirdar.

And the reason the jagirdar has no fear is because 1) Him, or his family member, or colleages is the elected MNA and MPA 2) He belongs to a powerful political party 3) Due to this power, he has been able to station his closest friends and relatives as the police officers and civil servants in his area.

But most of all, because he literally owns the whole land. Many many villages, all belong to him. He can, legally, kick anyone off his land, and make them penniless. He has never allowed schools to be built on his land, because he doesn`t want his haris and villagers to get an education and get liberated from his chains, by acquiring other skills. Since the land is his property, the govt. cannot do anything. In some cases, these guys have their own jails. In nearly all cases, they actually are the judiciary in their areas. They pass the decisions. Its their personal fiefdom.

In some cases, these guys are also the historical pirs and gaddi nasheens etc. (this is where religious beliefs do come in). So people consider them religious figures also........Pir Pogaro and Faisal Saleh Hayat being examples........

The key is to take away their lands and distribute it to the peasant tillers of the land. I belive Nehru did that with the Nawabs. That will break their back. Once they lose their lands, they will still remain wealthy men, but will not have control over the lives of the villagers. The villages will become rural, with no single landowner, i.e. they will no longer remain feudal.

I have some association with rural Potohar. Ever hear of a gang-rape being ordered there? No. Ever hear of a gang-rape being ordered in Kashmir? No. Both these areas are very rural and poor. But they are not owned by any Oxford educated feudal.......My distant family members participate in elections in Kashmir. And some win. But they have to go door to door to get the votes. They don`t own the land, and cannot force the farmers or peasants etc. to vote for them. Same is the case in non-feudal parts of Punjab like the surrouding areas of Lahore, Jehlum, Chakwal etc. Ayaz Amir, a journalist, can win election in backwards rural Chakwal. There is no way he could win in feudal areas like rural Sind or feudal parts of Punjab.........against people like Khar and Amin Fahim......

I don`t know much about Indian political history, but I think the main reason India has democracy and Pakistan does not is that Nehru was able to take away lands from large landowners. The Indus areas, being far more feudal, had a much stronger jagirdarana hold. Jinnah could have taken them on. But he died. After that, all of them entered politics, specifically to ensure no one can take their lands and change the system..........This is why feudals are always on the forefront of, ``elections`` under the staus quo system in Pakistan......The other intelligent move they have been able to make is that they have been able to portray themselves as the, ``secular`` alternative to the rest of the world. The world, dead scared of mullahs, seems satisfied in supporting feudals in Pakistan, even if they perside over a system of gang-rapes in their own constituencies........

As Iqbal said,

``Jiss khait say dehqan ko muyassar na ho rozi
Uss khait kay har khosha-e-gandum ko jala do``

#13 by ana

[let me ask you something. do you and jay really care whether Pakistani society changes for the better or not? And I`m not asking this out of sarcasm or anything, but seriously. . .
yeah, Bina`s response to jay is rather silly (and not very responsible for someone who`s written an article of someone as important as Mukhtaran Mai), but jay`s responses unfortunately don`t merit much else at times.]

To be honest, ana, I don`t really care when I have so much to worry in my own backyard. I just felt that jay raised some very pertinent points, but like many Pakis, Bina, instead of pondering over what jay said, simply tried to humiliate him.

As to Manto`s angry posts, I feel he still hasn`t been able to overcome the trauma that resulted from some uncomfortable questions I asked him on some other boards. This could be his way of getting back at me. Khair, as you put it, there are more important things at hand here.

Re: # 40

My dear harish hyd,

What angry posts are you talking about? I merely pointed out a fact. I had no desire to get back at you... the links are there... the questions that you refused to answer (no doubt because that would cause you the real trauma of myth-shattering) are also there ... but ofcourse you would rather run and restart the discussion here.

Romair/Rsidhar

I tend to agree with Rsidhar on this one... the solution to bad democracy is more democracy and even more democracy... And by democracy I don`t simply mean ``electoral`` democracy.... I mean real empowerment of the people... through grass roots democracy... through a working judiciary ... through local government... and advocacy groups.

Feudalism, sick and wrong, is part of an evolution... parts of Pakistan i.e. FATA and Balochistan agencies are two stages behind feudalism even i.e. Tribalism. And feudalism isn`t the same all over Pakistan... South Punjab is worse than North Punjab and Interior Sindh is even worse... What is more is that these feudals have a thousand excuses to defend their actions... What happened to Mukhtara Mai couldn`t have happened say in Potohar region ... yes perhaps... but other things happen there... and honor killings etc are as bad.

Romair mian is always trying to bring down a bogey... he is now mentioning the scions of these ``rich`` and ``feudal`` families writing on this website... it is ironically and sadly a thinly veiled (and misguided) reference to me (i couldn`t think of anyone else on this site being accused of being a feudal) ... because like many others he too has never able to argue logically and has therefore taken to personal attacks... ironic because my urban middleclass background is the farthest thing from a feudal... if anything our backgrounds are very similar.

#39 by Romair

“But most of all, because he literally owns the whole land. Many many villages, all belong to him.”

Could you please name couple of Zmindar or feudal who own “whole land and Many many” villages in Punjab or anywhere else in Pakistan or it was just a figure of speech?

#32 by anil

“Nazish Bhatti`s eyes show a scared and fearful girl. Whereas in this picture at least, Mukthar Mai`s eyes are determined and can spill fire to kill all evil. Can anyone now with evil intentions come closer to Mukthar Mai to gang rape and abuse her?”

My purpose is not to comment on what happened to Mai but a look at Mukhtarian’s picture would tell you that she just had a visit to the best beauty salon in Pakistan.
Her facial hair is plucked. Eyebrows trimmed and all made up, perhaps some foundation cream and a faint shade of lipstick too. She is doing a great job by highlighting a serious problem in our society and then helping herself too in the process and I like that spirit. (I am not being sarcastic here.)
See her here again with open eyes this time.

Actually, YLH, Romair is talking about me.

Re: # 41

Mian, I don’t have the desire to start a slanging match here, for this will only serve to degenerate this board into a free-for-all, when such an important issue is being discussed here. But for people like you, it doesn’t matter if you are in the gutter, as long as you can pull the other man into it too.

So thanks, but I prefer to remain out of it.

My dear harish hyd,

This is just rich coming from you of all people... Rest assure and be happy that I have no desire to engage you in discussion here or engage you in a ``slanging`` match. Its good that you`ve improved your manners and have chosen not to use the insults that are so second nature to you on the other boards. I acknowledge and appreciate that.

Re: # 45

If the last word is what you want to have, be my guest, but just wanted to tell you that I gave as good as I got, so please don`t whine about how gentlemanly you behaved yet were insulted. Thanks.

Sometimes ... one`s ``good as I got`` is not good enough...

Dear Harish Hyd,

Sorry for misreading your statement. I thought you were trying to say something else.

I am afraid what you are saying is nonsense. Please review the last 400 interacts between us and see for yourself ... At times even your own supporters had to intervene and ask you to stop insulting my family members simply because you didn`t have an argument. I will supply the post if you wish. Its alright though. Your tactics are common for anyone who is unable to provide a counter argument.

Bina Shah,

Jazak-Allah for keeping the issue alive. May Allah make your voice louder and more powerful, and give us all the courage to fight for justice than just talking about it!

re:#36 by Romair
Thanks for your long, thought-provoking post.
It is indeed a complicated situation.
Feudal system seems well-entrenched in Pakistan.
I still think a people`s democracy (the emphais is on the word people`s) would ultimately spell a death-knell for the feudal system in Pak. Let me explain how.

In 1947, when India became independent, both Zamindari system and the Princely States lost their power and prestige. Former were unceremoniously eliminated from the political scene while it took sometime for the latter to fade away (they held on to Privy Purses for sometime before Indira Gandhi stopped that previlege too).
Why do u think this happened? Because under the new dispensation of democracy, the leaders did not have to depend on Zamindars or Maharajas/Nawabs for their election or survival. Many Maharajas (Scindias of Gwaliar being one such) sought power under this dispensation in a new role: as politcal leaders. That is, they had to go back to the people to seek political office.
Would such a thing be possible in Pakistan if a true democracy were to find foothold. Pak today does not have a people`s democracy. When u have a system where political leaders get elected through people`s mandate and not depend on feudal money or power structure to get elected, the feudal system will fade away. This will happen in its fullness of time. Now-a days, the elections that happen in Pak could only be called a sham.
How come so many feudals get elected to Senate in Pak? I am sure they do so by using their money and muscle power. I am sure they force the laborers working under them to vote for them. I am not well versed with the election process in Pak but it does not seem like a fair process to me. Anyway, i still believe that democracy is the solution.
How Pak is going to get to the point of having a ``true people`s democracy``? I have no clue.
Sridhar

re: Anil`s post # 32
Anil,
Romair is right about the feudal laws. I think they have nothing to do with Islam. If one does a little research, one might find that these archaic laws may even predate Islam. Which is why even Mullahs are unable to make a dent in them.
Sridhar

Re: # 51

Actually this might not be true...

Feudalism does not predate Islam within the ``Arab world`` and what is now called the Muslim world.... Islam came when the Arabs were in a stage of development primitive to the feudal period... and even the monarchial period...

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) created what can be adequately described as a confederation of tribes ... which later formed an empire. When the this confederation-turned-empire came into contact with Sassanids and the Byzantines, the empire adopted the more advanced form of government i.e. centralised monarchy ... it was only after monarchy took root and the power shifted over to the Abbassids did we see some of these ``feudal structures`` emerge... ``Feudalism`` was advancement from the ``divine right of rule`` idea.. and it became entrenched in Ottoman Period and the Mughal period.... onto the modern period.

So I reject this classification... feudalism does not predate Islam.

-YLH

Rsidhar #50: “How Pak is going to get to the point of having a ``true people`s democracy``? I have no clue.”

This is the million dollar question. This is the Catch-22. A true people’s democracy is the answer. No doubt. But how do you get to that stage?

There is a simple test one can use about Pakistan’s current political system, to find out whom it favors: Many people present the argument that election after election will eventually get rid of feudals’ hold on power. I disagree. I think election after election, under the current system, only strengthens their hold.

Why do you think so many feudals in Pakistan are in politics? Go to any feudal area. The biggest feudal will be in PPP and the second biggest one will be in PML. Or vice-versa. Across the board. They obviously don’t get into it for public service. They get into it to specifically ensure that the current jagirdari system is not changed by the govt. To do that, they become the govt., themselves, through elections. This is why the biggest fighters for, “elections,” under the current system, in Pakistan are feudal and tribal leaders. Why would they fight for it, if election after election would reduce their power?

I would have to guess that the situation in India was different. India maybe rural. But not feudal. The reason Nehru was able to get rid of the landowners’ land, is perhaps, because India was not feudal enough, to begin with. By the time partition rolled around, India had a powerful urban class, which the areas of Pakistan lacked. In fact, Pakistan’s main urban class consisted of Muhajirs from India. Nehru was also the founder of the country, and had influence. Jinnah is the only urbanite in Pakistan’s history, who was able to take on the feudal landowners. But he died. If 66% of the elected assembly of India had been land-owning Nawabs, today, like in Pakistan, would they voluntarily get rid of their own lands?

For democracy to occur, the pre-requisites have to be there first. Historically, there has never been people’s democracy in feudal systems. It took the Europeans centuries to get rid of it. It took a civil war in the USA to lessen the power of the plantation owners……So it’s a chicken and egg Catch-22: For true democracy to occur, feudalism has to end. For feudalism to end true democracy has to occur.

I have noticed that most Pakistanis on this site, have completely urban relatively upper-middle to upper class upbringings. Their exposure is limited to Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, etc. They have never lived in the remaining 66% non-urban Pakistan. So all their comments are based on assuming all of Pakistan is like the cities. Which is why, in my opinion, they are off-target.

Pakistani cities are pretty well looked after, by third world standards. They are relatively progressive. In the cities, election after elections will solve the problems. However, city politics in Pakistan is immaterial. The real power is in the rural and feudal lands, because that is where all the constituencies are, and where over 60% of Pakistanis still live. Leaders of PPP and PML present a progressive appearance in the cities, which attracts many of the youth; including many on this site. PPP is all for minority rites and women’s rites in Lahore. They are also secular and speak out against maulvis. This attracts the West, also. Their leaders, though feudal, have degrees from Oxford and Harvard (in case of people like Benazir, from both). Their kids write poetry in English, attend dance parties and are members of women’s rights groups and NGOs. In addition, many of the non-feudal urban leaders of these parties, like Aitezaz Ahsan, Mairaj, etc. are true intellectuals (however, the urban leaders are never allowed to reach the top of their parties).

But, these parties do all this, on the basis of their regressive jagirs in feudal Pakistan. I would have not known any of this, had I not had an opportunity to live in these areas. I would also have been a naïve supporter of PPP, or some similar party, assuming what they do in cities is what they do everywhere. But, if you do a statistical survey, you will notice that overwhelmingly wherever such gang-rapes and honor killings occur, the ruling MNA and MPA will be from PPP or PML (or a Baluchi tribal). Not only will he be the local elected politician, he will be the owner of the land or village where the event occurred…………There is no way such events can occur without their approval……….They don’t want to get rid of this sytem………….And they have and will continue to always win in any election, under the current system………

#53 Romair ``In addition, many of the non-feudal urban leaders of these parties, like Aitezaz Ahsan, Mairaj, etc. are true intellectuals``

Are you pulling our legs, Romair? Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan is one of the biggest landlords in Central and Northern Punjab and I don`t know for sure but I`m willing to bet Malik Meraj was no 10 acre farmer either.





rsridhar ``Thanks for your long, thought-provoking post.
It is indeed a complicated situation.
Feudal system seems well-entrenched in Pakistan.
I still think a people`s democracy (the emphais is on the word people`s) would ultimately spell a death-knell for the feudal system in Pak. Let me explain how. ``

I hate to shatter all you`re illusions, buddy, but the Mastoi tribesmen who raped this woman were NOT feudals. They were 10 acre subsistence farmers. This is whole episode is NOTHING to do with feudalism. They were Mastoi Baluch and she was Gujjar. It was a tribal thing. Nothing more. If they tried to do this to her few miles north, in Sahiwal say, THEY were the ones who would`ve ended up getting raped by Mukhtar Mai`s clansmen.

Re: # 54

Dionysus,

While Ch. Aitzaz does come from a rural land owning background... he is the farthest thing from a feudal lord... that I can assure you... Ch Aitzaz`s parents also dedicated themselves to the service of Pakistan ... and were removed from the usual feudal class...

As for late Malik Meraj Khalid sahab... his wife and my mother are really close friends ... and I`ve known his family for ages... he rose from an extremely humble background... and lived in abject poverty for years before making it through law school and making a name for himself... his family still lives in a modest house which they exchanged for their house in Laxmi Mansion... incidentally something I`ve been talking about in the media a lot.

Bhutto picked him up (as he picked up Aitzaz) as prodigal talent ... and both men served Bhutto well... while alive to his faults, but loyal to the core.

-YLH

Bina_Shah #43: ``Romair is talking about me.``

Why would I be talking about you? Are you from a landowning family, yourself? Your profile doesn`t seem to match that. I thought you were from an Urdu-speaking family in Karachi.......

My references, in general, are to some of my friends and acquitances who are the off-spring of feudal families, and go to schools like Aitchison (this is the main alma mater of Punjabi feudals). While their sisters go to Convents and Grammar schools. Then they go abroad to study. This is the general trend amongst most feudal and landowning political families. Quite a few of these acquintances visit this site.....and their views are generally in line with the views presented on this site. Which is good. However, they draw their economic and social strength from their large feudal landownings. And when they go to their lands, they ensure the feudal systems does not change, because, as a result of such a change, they will end up losing their lands and, thus, their economic and political standing..........

Some of them justify this system by stating that their own family does not indulge in panchayat-based gang-rapes etc. and does a lot of work for the villagers, i.e. they are, ``benevolent`` feudals. In some cases that is true. But they will never be in favor of dismantling this whole system, and letting their villagers and tillers free, by letting the tillers and peasants own the land, themselves..........

You are completely incorrect about me, Romair, but we`ll leave my background for another day... at any rate, I`ve given some of your statements to some of my family members to read, and I must say they have had a good laugh out of them. For example, ``Letting them own the land``? That`s a good one.

Dionysus #54: ``Are you pulling our legs, Romair? Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan is one of the biggest landlords in Central and Northern Punjab and I don`t know for sure but I`m willing to bet Malik Meraj was no 10 acre farmer either.``

No I am not trying to pull anyone`s legs. Why would I be?

Aitezaz Ahsan is a family acquitance. Actually I don`t know what his extended family history is. Is it feudal? I will ask him, the next time I see him. However, there is nothing I have seen in his or his family that would indicate that he is a feudal. If he were, he wouldn`t be fighting his elections from Lahore, from where he generally loses to the PML (this time he won, because the PML was fractured). He would go to his feudal lands and fight the elections............

I also don`t know whether he is corrupt or honest. He was, by the way, the Vice President of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. But I do know that he is a true intellectual. I am highly impressed and somewhat inspired by his book titled, The Indus Saga. He is also one of the best lawyers in Pakistan.......

Mairaj Khalid, I don`t know. Never saw or met him. But from whatever I have read, he is a true politician, from lower middle to middle class of Pakistan. This is what politicians should be. And he has a very good reputation. I would really be surprised if he had any land, much less a large amount............

If PPP were led by Aitezaz Ahsans and Mairaj Khalids I would vote for them. They aren`t the only ones. The urban leadership of PPP seems quite balanced; at least the ones I know. Once again, I don`t know if they are honest or corrupt, but they are definitely progressive. The PPP manifesto is quite progressive also.

However, PPP has a huge problem. Their urban leadership is just a hood ornament. They are decoration pieces to add sophistication to the party. The real power lies with its feudal members. And that group is far more regressive than even the maulvis. And it is quite sad to see people like Aitezaz Ahsan come on TV, to defend the crimes and practices of the feudals; not to mention the corruption of Benazir and her husband..........

One would think that people like Mairaj Khalid and Aitezaz would have more of an ideological affinity with parties like Tehrik-e-Insaaf. I don`t know why they are still pushing the PPP`s feudal agenda, which only allows Bhuttos (and now Zaradaris) to come to the top...........It could be that they know this is the only way they can get elected...........

``I hate to shatter all you`re illusions, buddy, but the Mastoi tribesmen who raped this woman were NOT feudals. They were 10 acre subsistence farmers. This is whole episode is NOTHING to do with feudalism.``

It has everything to do with feudalism. It exists because of feudalism. The people who raped the woman did so within the boundary of a system, which is kept in place by the feudal/tribal system. And overseen by the feudals. It was not a normal rape, as would occur in, say, Toronto or Lahore. It was a judicial decision, given under a certain system.......

Who do you think protects these systems, and keeps them from collapsing? Whom do they benefit? Who gives protection to these tribesmen? Who sits at the top of these, ``tribes?`` Why don`t such systems and decisions exist in Kashmir or Jehlum, etc..............

Romair, Sridhar (# Various)

I know traditions, religions and even law have been used by perpetrators of crimes to justify, be it lynching in the South, be it Sati in India, be it honor killing in Jordan or Pakistan. This is undeniably true for me. However, my emphasis is more on the powerplay, and that players power base needs to be understood (supported or confronted).

Mukhtar Mai was powerless, until media and support organizations stepped in. That is where victims power comes from. Tribals, Fuedal, and politicians (reading Romair about MNAs in Fuedal pockets) get their power from status quo to keep 1,000 villagers silent and spectator to instill fear if nothing else. They also get their power from the nexus with each other.

South Asia has a history of changing such power equations to gain independence from the British. Gandhi did it for India. Jinnah did it for Pakistan. Both did it on a larger scale and took a longer time. Gandhi used the media and appeal that social practices, and religion have on people to successfully create mass movement. I think Jinnah used something similar to empower his supporters with a mission. Empowering mother, wife, sisters and daughters of silent and approving 1,000 spectator villagers will instill courage in these silent spectators. May be even the support of liberal mullahs might be needed as they have a hold on the belief system of these villagers.

A few years ago I had quoted an example on Chowk, and will repeat it here. I had a friend (a Hindu), who was a practicing cardiologist in the Bay Area. When she was a medical student in Bhopal, there was a lab. assistant who was a smart and intellegent muslim boy. She went with him to the muslim colony in Bhopal where he lived for the community medicine project. On their way back, according to her both were struck by the lack of education among young girls who were playing on the streets instead of being in the school. She suggested to the lab assistant that they should start an education program for these girls in the colony instead. The lab assistant expressed his skepticsm that the mullah of the neighborhood masjid and males would not allow it.

She persuaded the lab assistant to go back with her to talk to people in the community. Both went back, and as the lab assistant had said the mullah and some vocal males came out agaisnt the idea, made it clear that they did not want both of them in the community to do anything to disturb the status quo. The lab. assistant felt vindicated and she felt sad on their way back. My friend did not give up and asked the lab assistant to come with her one more time. This time she wanted to go during the mid day when all the males had gone to work, and wanted to talk to the most respected elderly lady in the community. The lab assistant took her there. She told me that when the mullah saw them coming again, he came over and simply stared at them, although they ignored him. Mullah`s male supporters were just not there so he could only stare at them, while they asked the old lady, if she could read or write? Obvisoulsy old lady answered that she could not. She then asked would like her grand daughters to grow up like her and not be able to read or write; or would she like them to be able read and write abe able to be in contact with their parents when they grow up?

The old lady`s answer was obvious, she not only wanted but became the champion and gave a space in her home to start the classes, and told the mullah off to never even come closer to these people if he did not want any trouble. She assured both of them that whenever they will come to teach, she would ensure all the safety and security for them. By the time my friend graduated from her medical college in Bhopal, this program had become a requirement for all medical students to participate.

There are atleast two ways - half full (my friend`s), and half empty (her lab. assistant`s) to look at situations, both are essential to find a pragmatic solution. Only people who are afraid to accept the change are the ones who live thru status quo. BTW, I did ask her if the mullah did anything laet. She told me, as I recall that later the mullah wanted to give a space in the masjid to start the school, because he (a power broker) did not want to loose his standing in the community. Mobilizing public opnion through the effective use of community leader (organ / media) is so important. I always remember, Dr. Anjali Pathak`s example in mind.

Anil Kapuria

Mukhtar mai is one small blow to the corruption (moral too) of the Paksatani society. Before her case, such crimes were committed without shame or consequence. Her case won`t eliminate future oppressions, but it has brought change.

The pakisatanis have shot themselve in the foot with such kanjarpana. In the eyes of the world, it is another example of their barbarity and they don`t have any sympathy or support for thier cause in the world arena.

Romair,

You have many times railed against the ``feudals``. What i have failed to understand is how exactly they boss-over or supress their fiefdomes. I mean, UP and Bihar are very backwards, but any bhaiyya with a will to ride a train without ticket makes a bee-line to a city or panjab (where agricultural labor demand is high). And that is why you have a Samajwadi Party MLAs (a UP-Bihar based parety) even from bombay/maharashtra legislature, and Mayawati campaigned in maharashtra..far from her power base.

From what i understand is that pakistani urban areas, a lot of panjab, and offcourse kashmir are flourishing and prosperous. How can the feudals keep his folks from leaving him to earn from urban gold-rush?

What exactly do these feudals do (besides getting elected, whenever the few elections do happen) to opress the ``masses``?

anil #59: ``Mobilizing public opnion through the effective use of community leader (organ / media) is so important.``

There is only one way to fix this problem, in Pakistan (or anywhere). Take the land away from the people who own so much land. There is no other way. It doesn`t matter if the land owners are good or bad, or progressive or regressive, etc., they are part of a system, which allows them the luxury of literally getting away with murder.

Perhaps there is nothing wrong with owning a lot of agricultural land, like ranchers. If I buy 25,000 acres of land in Manitoba and raise horses there, I am not a feudal. However, if there are tens of villages on that land, and I own those villages (and hence the villagers, also), I am a feudal.

The only institution which can take away the land is the govt. It can simply pass laws, making it impossible to own that much land, and making it impossible to hide the ownership of that land (by giving it to relatives, etc.). It can then buy the land (or forcefully take it) and give it to the tillers and small farmers, who work there.

Once that is done, the problem is solved.

This has actually happened in parts of Pakistan. Specifically in Punjab. Punjab is, I believe, mostly non-feudal. It is rural. All of Potohar is rural and poor, but not feudal. Kashmir is rural and poor, but not feudal. The lands belong to the people who till them.

My family is amongst the wealthier members of our surrouding villages. Some of my cousins/uncles etc. participate in local elections. To get votes they have to go door to door and ask the villagers for votes. Or appeal to them, through baradri relationships, etc. They cannot force them to vote, for them. Because they don`t own the village. If they owned the villages, like feudals, they wouldn`t even have to campaign..........

However, the govt. cannot take the land away from the feudals, because the feudals, themselves, are the govt. PPP and PML are both hardcore feudal parties, and they dominate politics. In many, if not most cases, one relative is in one party, and another is in the other. They are all related to each other.......

The Army could have easily done it. However, it didn`t do it either, including Musharraf. In fact, Ayub and Zia`s next generation actually joined the feudals. Gohar Ayub sits at the center of, perhaps the most powerful political family nexus in Pakistan, which has relatives married into every power group - from feudals to businessmen, to military to NGOs. One relative who almost became the COAS, instead of Musharraf..........

The third option is a peasant revolution. Which seems to be what you are suggesting. However, such revolutions will start in the cities. But the cityfolk in Pakistan are generally ok. They have traditionally been better off than the cityfolk, probably, in most of South Asia (including India) in terms of living standard. They don`t really want a revolution. And the peasants in the feudal lands, cannot rise up against the landowner, who is also their MNA, and whose relative is the police inspector of the area, and who party is running the govt.

I think there is only one group that the feudals are afraid of. And that is the maulvi politicians. This goes against the generic Chowk hatred of maulvis. But the maulvis are the only group in Pakistan that represents the poor class. And has put farmers and mosque imams (both poor classes) into the Assemblies. And the maulvis appeal to a force that the peasants are more scared of than their feudal, i.e. God. In fact, in Baluchistan, the maulvis have defeated quite a few tribal leaders...........

But the maulvis have their own negative baggage...............

It will take someone with the popularity and credibility and political skill of Jinnah to sort out the powerful feudal politicians of PPP and PML. Maybe Imran Khan could be that person.........Though his party has been quite unsuccessful, since it is primarily run by progressive urbanites, with no political base in landowning areas...........

Romair and others

Feudalism as a social and economic system as practiced in pakistan is the problem, not large land holdings, there are larger land holdings in the US, Australia even Britain, where farming is regarded as an industry with management, employees and casual workers etc.

It would be very difficult to replicate the Mirpur and Jehlum model, because of their unique position with regard to army recruitment and migration to England. Mirpur is far from egalitarian, there are some fabulously rich families there, as an Indian journalist recently observed it has massive sprawling bungalows, making those in Guraon look like servant quarters.

BTW where is Gurgaon never heard of the place before

(short post)

it is a folly to ascribe a major portion of the blame to the feudals

if you ask me i will blame any ill in pakistan to the occupying army

---

(long post)

occupying army


…give me any problem in paksitan and i will give you a two word answer…occupying army…try me :)

to blame the feudals only is beating the dead camel while pretending it is alive

over on the sajil board (incest and underage ward’s sexual abuse) romair was gingerly heading in the right direction when he mentioned that and other related issues from the perch of law and order

* the occupying army is the root of all evil in pakistan
* the occupying army is the current God, Mohammed and the Caliphs all rolled into one…ok Ram, Guru Nanak, Krishna, Budda…Jesus….did i miss anyone?...insert your favourite diety here ......

* the occupying army….ok enough…some of you are irritated by repeated mention of it …so won’t mention it again in this thread …but on the odd chance that some new readers are not sure where i am coming from …( the other query ...where am going is also speculative at best) i will explain:

on the eight day…biblical reference for the unbelievers;)…He pointed at the faujis and said…you manage…

…as the world knows by now, they have made a holy mess of it!…enough is enough say foes and friends alike…send them back to barracks under full civilian control like happens in most civilized countries…(certain politicians in the beltway who have a penchant for talking about democracy but dealing with autocrats, k(h)akistocrats, ailing oligarchs, monarchs, and small time tin-pots excepted)

ok, back to why i think they are the root of all evil in Pakistan...as long as they are remotely close to power:

* they will not let any national institutions flourish
* there will be no independent judiciary
* there will be no independent civil service
* there will be no accountability – external or internal
* nobody will be answerable to the public
* no orderly political institutions would evolve
* jungle raj will prevail under army raj

…i have to mention india ...sorry if it gets anybody’s goat…both countries got their independence at the same time…while we may argue if it is more democratic or less when compared to other countries…nobody can deny that is largely a democratic set-up with functioning institutions….where the ordinary citizens exercise power to throw out their state or national governments every so many years...while there is rampant corruption…the big difference is when push comes to shove the ordinary citizen is heard…it may take longer for him to be heard….but he is heard…compared to Pakistan …everyone feels there is more law and order there …briefly….they are stumbling toward the ideal goal...life, liberty, freedom, pursuit of happiness, freedom from persecution…

whereas

pakistan is regressing…the faujis are forever looking to increase their share of the pie…in their zeal they have overthrown common sense...they forget that if there is no country there won’t be no army’…they are a law unto themselves…there is no law for the ordinary citizenry…

…this needs to be looked at more closely…

…on books pakistan has all the laws it needs to exist as a civil society…mostly good…some bad ones…the people…or the judiciary is not empowered and independent enough to knock down the bad one…the legislature is cowed and manipulated…(remember saima sarwar imran?...) ...when justice is denied what do you thnk ordinary citizen can do>,,,the options are to take law into their own hands…or to approach the dons in their turf for remedial justice…the bugtis, the mqm etc. often provide justice by default to the ordinary citizens…

..and this is with the full blessings of the army raj….( i promised you i won’t use that phrase in this post)…along with these petty warlords the army also uses mafia to rule…

…if you want I can develop this even more….but i better end this here…the army has to go back to the barracks under full civilian control…and let the civilians resume their long trial and run for a viable political system beneficial for the populace without army interference

aslam, gurgaon is a once dusty outskirt of Delhi, now has become a hot destination of the new-rich IT folks. its kind of silicon valley of north-india.

#61 by jang

Basically Romair has no idea of Pakistani political and social dynamics and he just keeps recycling ideas from 1960s. A few Feudal do influence some seats in Sindh and a few more in Southern Punjab. Most of the MNA or MPAs from Punjab, Sindh and NWFP are at best well off landowners. Over the last several years, seats have been added in the urban areas and as the urban population have increased over the years. If you understand Pakistani politics a little, you would know that elections do not guarantee influence in the government. Some feudal can win all the seats but they always rely on the army and the civil bureaucracy for crumbs.

The old days of feudal controlling things in their areas are gone now. The Pir of Pagara probably the richest Wadera(feudal) cannot win elections from his own area. In Sindh, most of the so-called feudal would lose elections if they are not in the PPP. So their election strength is in PPP and not vice versa. Some feudal are so much in debt that often you would find them begging bankers to get off their backs.
The problem is not feudal but the mindset that feudal promoted and people still following in those outdated traditions and customs.

The movement from the rural areas to urban areas in Pakistan is not as huge as it is in India. Sindhi have enough incomes from their land holdings that they don’t’ leave their ancestral villages and cities. Karachi is the magnet for the rural Pushtoon and educated Punjabis for various reasons.
The situation in Punjab is different where small towns and villages are growing in population and are truly urban areas now. (Yassar or Feroz would probably have more info on this.)

Re: # 65
jang
thanks for that information, no wonder i couldn`t find it on the map.

Jang #61: ``What i have failed to understand is how exactly they boss-over or supress their fiefdomes``

Good question.....I will try to answer it..........

``From what i understand is that pakistani urban areas, a lot of panjab, and offcourse kashmir are flourishing and prosperous. How can the feudals keep his folks from leaving him to earn from urban gold-rush?``

Kashmir is not prosperous. It is relatively poor. It is very safe, non-violent and I would say progressive. And it now has a lot of people settled in UK. But its locals, within Kashmir are not rich, as such..........Educated people from Kashmir migrate to Punjab (like my families)........

Punjab is rural and parts of it are prosperous. Though other parts are poor. The rural non-feudal parts, like Potohar, are fine. No honor killings, no gang-rapes. No powerful politicians. I suppose it would be like the village areas in India, which are probably, rural and poor, but not feudal. These areas can progress.

The peasants in the feudal areas are in terrible shape. Their condiition must be unique in South Asia. Where are they going to go? They have no skills. No vision. Some of them actually consider the local feudals their pirs. If they protest, the landowners can kick them off the land, since it belongs to him........Some of them are actually bought and born into slavery........Their skills are not in demand anywhere.........What skills do they have?

When I lived in Southern Punjab, I had an orderly, who was in his 40s, but had only visited Lahore twice in his life !! He had gotten a job as an orderly, because their was a military station there. Otherwise, he would be tillling some feudal`s land.

This is why I say, the main way out is for the economy to grow. For non-skilled jobs to be created. So that, some member of the peasant family can take that job. And become independent. This is why, I have always supported economic progress in Pakistan, over elections (ideally I would want both, though). This is also why I think PPP-type parties will ensure the economy does not grow (it never does under their rule), because that will urbanize the population, and break the back of feudalism...........

``What exactly do these feudals do (besides getting elected, whenever the few elections do happen) to opress the ``masses``?``

They don`t allow schools to be built, on their lands. They ensure that land reforms do not occur. They ensure that ancient jirga type systems remain in place. They ensure the literacy rates in their areas is low (it is the lowest in South Asia, in feudal and tribal Pakistan). The wild amongst them can indulge in rape, etc.........

In their personal lives, they don`t do much, other than what they want. What job has Benazir had other than being the Primer Minister? She has never worked anywhere else. What job has Zardari had, other than being in jail or being in politics. Most of them don`t even do agriculture, which should be their profession.

Outside their own lands, they are normal people.

The average profile of the present-day feudal is: he/she is born in Lahore or Karachi etc. Lives a Western lifestyle in Pakistan. Goes to Aitchison college, or St. Joseph etc. for girls. Graduates, and goes to USA or UK to study. In some cases to elite Ivy League universities. Comes back to Pakistan. By that time he/she is in his/her twenties.........Then the siblings who want to go into politics, immediately start participating in the provincial and council elections (in many cases against their own cousins, who is in the opposition party), in their feudal lands, while they, themselves live in the big cities. Since they own the lands, they win (or the cousin wins). That`s it. They continue to live in the wealthy parts of Lahore or Karachi, and keep doing this, till they die........

The ones who don`t want to go into politics, start a business, become a model or a socialite or perhaps join civil services for a while. Or become writers, journalists. Join NGOs, women`s movements, write poetry, etc. Visit Chowk. Speak out against maulvis and honor-killings, etc. Basically anything they want to do. They don`t need to have a job, and are extremely well-connected.......

If you meet them - and I have some school friends in this category - they are generally nice people, in person. And fun-loving and Westernized and are, personally, quite liberal and progressive. And are foreign educated.......But their whole stature in society is based on the poor villagers who till their lands, whom they will never let go of. The good ones might build a school or hospital for them, but they will never give them their land..........

As an example, the current Minister of Science and Technology of Pakistan is a feudal in his early 30s. He is the son of a previous President of Pakistan, Farooq Leghari. His qualifications are equivalent to those of an intern. I doubt he could have gotten a green card in the USA, where he studied. I would not have hired him for my company...........But he is an MNA and a Federal Minister.....And that too, of Science and Technology....This is basically the first real job he has had...........Not a bad way to make a living............

The minister of S&T before him was a Ph.D. scientist, appointed by Musharraf (unConsitutioanlly appointed, but one of the top scientists in Pakistan). However, the one before him, under Nawaz Sharif, was a lady with a high-school diploma, who is a feudal and stud-farmer in Punjab. Her name is Abida Hussain (from PML). I am not sure, whether she can even spell S&T. She, interestingly, fights elections, against her nephew (who is in the PPP), named Faisal Saleh. He is the religious gaddi nashin of the pir, from that area. Abida`s daughter recently graduated from Harvard, and returned to fight the council elections against Faisal`s son or nephew in the same area...............